Author Topic: FREE POB!  (Read 55221 times)

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Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #180 on: January 20, 2009, 01:54:40 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

While I agree that the "hater" stuff is not necessary, I also don't think that there is any need to discuss the way anyone argues their point. 

This entire discussion needs to calm down.  It is getting way too close to becoming personal, and that just is not what these forums are about. 

So for everyone, lets please stick with arguing the points about the Celtics, and refrain from discussing who are "haters", who have agendas, or who argues in a certain way.  They have no place on these forums.


Fair enough Chis, however I would like to distinguish with someone asking why someone hates a certain guy (when they make outlandish comments that are extreme and not based in fact to tear them down) versus labeling people "haters" which to me denotes someone that goes around and just is ripping on every player just to be negative. Asking someone why they hate a certain player (like a Scal or POB etc) doesn't have to come from them trying to label them.

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #181 on: January 20, 2009, 01:57:00 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I will say that its getting ridiclous support of cor. Ive been told i hate 2 players as well lately for saying they aren't where we need them to be.

criticizm does not  = irrational hatred

as it has been equaited in several threads lately.



Criticism is not the issue. You criticize players all the time, but make valid points to back up statements. That is not being a "hater". Making extreme arguments that even the poster doesn't believe just to rip a guy is hatred. Why else would you do it?! (Other than maybe not being able to effectively argue your point) Anyone calling you a hater is wrong. When you disagree with someone you tend to try and reasonably argue your side. There are many on here that aren't called out specifically by others as a hater though that lump themselves into that group and are offended which probably just proves they really were.

EJ, i made rational arguments about POB in the other thread and you pretty much dismissed them out of hand (PF issue, Lack of defensive rotations, Extremly high TO's, bad low post defense). I know you probley don't think you did, but you did.

I have no "hatred" or "dislike" for POB. nothing would please me more than if he suddently became everything he could be, that would be awesome and solve a glaring need for us.

But im not going to back down from making valid criticims of his game because you think im somehow being mean spirited to him on a personal level, its not true. I'm simply telling you what i think of a player.
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Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2009, 01:58:28 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

EJ, you know i love you man, but thats honestly pretty irrational (disagree with me for something i deem false and you clearly hate player x) and a bit personal with some of the stuff in the second half.

I think we all need to just calm down, we are discussing our 12th man here.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, i think POB is better than cor does, notably offensivly, but i think his defensive let downs, TO's, and personal foul trouble is a pretty vaild concern. To patrick's credit, he has shown me mor ethese last two runs, and moved up a few notchs in my estimation, but he's still way below meanigful playing time level.




I think everyone needs to step back and chill a minute.





Fair statement. Right back at you! The issue I have is when someone starts making comments on here that have no basis in fact and are extreme. I have agreed with many of cordobes' comments on here, but this is over the top. I have said exactly what you have said in your posts about POB and agree he has some big flaws he needs to work on if he is going to see more than garbage time. He isn't however completely devoid of any basketball ability and to make that comment just tells everyone you can't make your argument based on facts. It is probably better left alone... TP to you for the attempt to bring peace!

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2009, 02:01:57 PM »

Offline crownsy

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

EJ, you know i love you man, but thats honestly pretty irrational (disagree with me for something i deem false and you clearly hate player x) and a bit personal with some of the stuff in the second half.

I think we all need to just calm down, we are discussing our 12th man here.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, i think POB is better than cor does, notably offensivly, but i think his defensive let downs, TO's, and personal foul trouble is a pretty vaild concern. To patrick's credit, he has shown me mor ethese last two runs, and moved up a few notchs in my estimation, but he's still way below meanigful playing time level.




I think everyone needs to step back and chill a minute.





Fair statement. Right back at you! The issue I have is when someone starts making comments on here that have no basis in fact and are extreme. I have agreed with many of cordobes' comments on here, but this is over the top. I have said exactly what you have said in your posts about POB and agree he has some big flaws he needs to work on if he is going to see more than garbage time. He isn't however completely devoid of any basketball ability and to make that comment just tells everyone you can't make your argument based on facts. It is probably better left alone... TP to you for the attempt to bring peace!

back at ya man, and hey, as i said before, we can all hope for more POB playing time in the near future, both because i want to see if he can keep his recent effort and focus up, and also because it means we kicked the stuffing out of the other team before the fourth  ;D
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #184 on: January 20, 2009, 02:21:28 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You know, I've read every word that has been written since my last post and I think something very important is missing from this conversation.

When does the talk of O'Bryant's potential stop and when does the talk of the progress he has made begin? No one is talking about his total progress. Just how far, after two years of college and three years in the pros, has his game progressed from where it once was?

I can not answer this question as I never even once saw him play before being in Green but perhaps others can comment intelligently. I do know that it doesn't appear that he is one iota better a player now than when I saw him in preseason. And that's bothersome.

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #185 on: January 20, 2009, 02:27:07 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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You know, I've read every word that has been written since my last post and I think something very important is missing from this conversation.

When does the talk of O'Bryant's potential stop and when does the talk of the progress he has made begin? No one is talking about his total progress. Just how far, after two years of college and three years in the pros, has his game progressed from where it once was?

I can not answer this question as I never even once saw him play before being in Green but perhaps others can comment intelligently. I do know that it doesn't appear that he is one iota better a player now than when I saw him in preseason. And that's bothersome.

Very god thought nick. I agree completely that it would be nice to see what he looked like those first few months out of college. He has a total of 84 minutes though in game time this year, and they haven't had more than a handful of practices with the guy learning a much more complex defensive system though, so I don't know that the change since preseason is going to be that drastic. I think where we will see the most change this year is in his effort hopefully, and what he shows us he's done in the offseason. If he comes back from the offseason no better than he is right now, I agree he likely will never be better than he is right now. Borderline 2/3 string. I'd like to hear from someone who REALLY watched him in college, not just someone who saw 1 game against their team...

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #186 on: January 20, 2009, 02:28:24 PM »

Offline crownsy

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You know, I've read every word that has been written since my last post and I think something very important is missing from this conversation.

When does the talk of O'Bryant's potential stop and when does the talk of the progress he has made begin? No one is talking about his total progress. Just how far, after two years of college and three years in the pros, has his game progressed from where it once was?

I can not answer this question as I never even once saw him play before being in Green but perhaps others can comment intelligently. I do know that it doesn't appear that he is one iota better a player now than when I saw him in preseason. And that's bothersome.

I think thats tough to judge, i mean, on one hand i see your point, but we see him for 4-6 minutes once every 2 weeks. we don't know what he's doing in practice, shoot arounds, ect. not a good sample size IMO.

i think clearly the only solution is to kick the snot out of more teams so we get longer looks at him and bill.  ;)
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #187 on: January 20, 2009, 02:54:38 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Very god thought nick. I agree completely that it would be nice to see what he looked like those first few months out of college. He has a total of 84 minutes though in game time this year, and they haven't had more than a handful of practices with the guy learning a much more complex defensive system though, so I don't know that the change since preseason is going to be that drastic.

A  much more complex defensive system than what? Than the Warriors' system? Why so?

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #188 on: January 20, 2009, 03:01:42 PM »

Offline cordobes

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

John Oates has some talent. David Harrinson has some talent. Kevin Pittsnogle has some talent. Every stiff who played in the NBA had talent. I mean, if you compare those guys with the baskebtall talent of this board, they're insanely talented. But that's not the point - we're talking about the NBA. Have those guys ever showed the ability to play in the NBA? Not even close.

I said he has shown no signs of basketballability because he hasn't shown he can play at this level. And until he learns the basics of post defense, for example, he won't show it. Until he shows he can play at the speed of a NBA game, he is yet to show those signs. To put him in very practical terms, no NBA coach will give him more than garbage minutes until he proves he has that ability.

More simple and concise than this I can't be.

Other than that, I'd recommend this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #189 on: January 20, 2009, 03:05:24 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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FREE POB'S ROSTER SPOT!

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #190 on: January 20, 2009, 03:17:52 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

John Oates has some talent. David Harrinson has some talent. Kevin Pittsnogle has some talent. Every stiff who played in the NBA had talent. I mean, if you compare those guys with the baskebtall talent of this board, they're insanely talented. But that's not the point - we're talking about the NBA. Have those guys ever showed the ability to play in the NBA? Not even close.

I said he has shown no signs of basketballability because he hasn't shown he can play at this level. And until he learns the basics of post defense, for example, he won't show it. Until he shows he can play at the speed of a NBA game, he is yet to show those signs. To put him in very practical terms, no NBA coach will give him more than garbage minutes until he proves he has that ability.

More simple and concise than this I can't be.

Other than that, I'd recommend this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

It is obvious you are much more interested in talking down to me than proving your point with facts. I appreciate your offer to assist me in my learning. If you are getting your education from Wikipedia which is about as credible as a blog is as far as facts go, then good luck to you. You still haven't addressed the fact that the guy is shooting 58% from the field. Or that he has a natural ability to block shots, or that he has an ability to finish strong around the rim dunking the ball quite frequently. Those are NBA level skills that our current backup center BBD does not have. Let's just see what we want to see though. Much easier to live in your own world and version of the truth. As for me, I think I am done with the attitude and will discuss things with those who actually are interested in discussing things. Not throwing out nonsense and talking down to those who DARE disagree with them.

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #191 on: January 20, 2009, 03:43:54 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Oh, and the C's defensive system is way more simple to learn than the one the Warriors use. It's not complex at all in terms of NBA, quite the contrary - most teams use more sophisticated and complicated systems.

David Harrinson can dunk. I've never seen a 7ft who can't dunk. The ability to dunk is simply not enough. The idea that BBD can't dunk is ridiculous - have you watched yesterday's game?

Shavlik Randolph is shooting 100% from the field. Mohameed Sene and Alando Tucker are shooting 72% from the field. What do those numbers mean? Exactly the same of POB's 58% from the field.

POB doesn't know the fundamentals of shot blocking. He goes for most of his blocks with the wrong hand. He stays on the paint for too long. He stares at the ball too much losing vision of his man. He's not a good shot-blocker, except in an extremely superficial analysis.


Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #192 on: January 20, 2009, 03:47:05 PM »

Offline Chris

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Oh, and the C's defensive system is way more simple to learn than the one the Warriors use. It's not complex at all in terms of NBA, quite the contrary - most teams use more sophisticated and complicated systems.



Absolutely.  It is incredibly simple, but it just requires near perfect execution to be effective.

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #193 on: January 20, 2009, 03:59:12 PM »

Offline Chris

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People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

While I agree that the "hater" stuff is not necessary, I also don't think that there is any need to discuss the way anyone argues their point. 

This entire discussion needs to calm down.  It is getting way too close to becoming personal, and that just is not what these forums are about. 

So for everyone, lets please stick with arguing the points about the Celtics, and refrain from discussing who are "haters", who have agendas, or who argues in a certain way.  They have no place on these forums.


Fair enough Chis, however I would like to distinguish with someone asking why someone hates a certain guy (when they make outlandish comments that are extreme and not based in fact to tear them down) versus labeling people "haters" which to me denotes someone that goes around and just is ripping on every player just to be negative. Asking someone why they hate a certain player (like a Scal or POB etc) doesn't have to come from them trying to label them.

Well, to me the difference is who is determining that someone "hates" a player.  If a poster says "I hate Scal", then please, ask them to explain why they hate Scal.  If someone makes an argument of why they believe POB is not a good basketball player, or should not be on the team, it does not mean they "hate" him.  It also does not mean they are making "extreme" or "outlandish" comments, that are not based in "fact". 

Let's be real here, there is very little fact involved.  It is all opinion, and everyone is allowed to have their own.  If their opinion is that the stats are not a good measurement of a player being ready to be part of the rotation, then that is fine.  Is someone else feels that the stats are reason for him to get a shot, that is fine too.  Discussions like this are based on opinions...particularly discenting opinions.  The only way we are able to maintain good, quality discussion is if everybody's opinion is respected, and taken for what it is...an opinion.

I can tell you from experience that the quickest way for a discussion to deteriorate is if someone feels like they are dealing with fact, and everyone who doesn't agree is either an "idiot", or simply has an agenda.  All that does is create animosity, and destroy constructive discussion.

Re: FREE POB!
« Reply #194 on: January 20, 2009, 04:59:26 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Well, to me the difference is who is determining that someone "hates" a player.  If a poster says "I hate Scal", then please, ask them to explain why they hate Scal.  If someone makes an argument of why they believe POB is not a good basketball player, or should not be on the team, it does not mean they "hate" him.  It also does not mean they are making "extreme" or "outlandish" comments, that are not based in "fact". 

Let's be real here, there is very little fact involved.  It is all opinion, and everyone is allowed to have their own.  If their opinion is that the stats are not a good measurement of a player being ready to be part of the rotation, then that is fine.  Is someone else feels that the stats are reason for him to get a shot, that is fine too.  Discussions like this are based on opinions...particularly discenting opinions.  The only way we are able to maintain good, quality discussion is if everybody's opinion is respected, and taken for what it is...an opinion.

I can tell you from experience that the quickest way for a discussion to deteriorate is if someone feels like they are dealing with fact, and everyone who doesn't agree is either an "idiot", or simply has an agenda.  All that does is create animosity, and destroy constructive discussion.
[/quote]





Can you tell me how the comment "POB has no basketball ability" is not extreme then? Would that be considered a statement that is reasonable? That is the point. I am perfectly happy to have dissenting opinions about POB. I am perfectly happy to discuss why I think he is more valuable than some might think. You can't discuss something with someone though that says "the sun is green" and then keeps telling you that you're wrong when you say it isn't. If you make ridiculous over the top comments, then there is no rationale discussion. That's where this thread went off. At some point you just have to own up to the fact that you said something that was wrong to try and make your point because it was easier than actually discussing things that were factual.