Celtics make offer to Maggette!!! / Spurs in lead to get him? (merged)

[Roy Hobbs]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.  I don't think it's a matter of renouncing it, because I don't think they'd have it to begin with (once they had significant cap room at any time, meaning cap room in excess of their available exceptions).

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Wouldn't it be because they don't have the MLE to use?

That's what I'm saying. And why they don't have the MLE to use?

Because when they renounce to Livingston and Maggette Bird's rights, they'll be aprox. $29M under the cap. Then they resign Brand with a deal beginning with a $14M 1st year salary. But when you're under the cap, exceptions count against the cap (you can't have both). So, they're not really $15M under the cap (or $29 before resigning Brand), but only $7M (assuming they also have the LLE available). This means they have to renounce the exceptions in order to clear cap (the same process they followed when they renounced to Shaun and Corey Bird's rights). Only after that they'll have enough cap space to sign Davis.

Once you renounce the rights to the MLE you can't regain them by going over the cap after signing a player.

[cordobes]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Yeps, that's what I said. It doesn't mean they can't resign Maggette because they renounced to him. They can't use the MLE because they will renounce to it in order to clear cap.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Yeps, that's what I said. It doesn't mean they can't resign Maggette because they renounced to him. They can't use the MLE because they will renounce to it in order to clear cap.

Lol, I really wasn't understanding why you were asking since you had basically had explained the situation before Roy posted.

[Roy Hobbs]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Yeps, that's what I said. It doesn't mean they can't resign Maggette because they renounced to him. They can't use the MLE because they will renounce to it in order to clear cap.

No.  They don't *have* the MLE, because they have significant cap room.  Thus, there's nothing for them to renounce.

As I stated above:

  I don't think it's a matter of renouncing it, because I don't think they'd have it to begin with (once they had significant cap room at any time, meaning cap room in excess of their available exceptions).

Basically, once the Clippers have roughly $7.6 million in cap room *at any time*, they lose their MLE for the entirety of this season.  Once they sign Brand and renounce Maggette, they'll have this excess cap room, and the MLE goes *poof*.

[cordobes]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Wouldn't it be because they don't have the MLE to use?

That's what I'm saying. And why they don't have the MLE to use?

Because when they renounce to Livingston and Maggette Bird's rights, they'll be aprox. $29M under the cap. Then they resign Brand with a deal beginning with a $14M 1st year salary. But when you're under the cap, exceptions count against the cap (you can't have both). So, they're not really $15M under the cap (or $29 before resigning Brand), but only $7M (assuming they also have the LLE available). This means they have to renounce the exceptions in order to clear cap (the same process they followed when they renounced to Shaun and Corey Bird's rights). Only after that they'll have enough cap space to sign Davis.

Once you renounce the rights to the MLE you can't regain them by going over the cap after signing a player.

Of course not. That's why they can't use the MLE to resign Maggette or anyone else. They have to renounce to the MLE in order to have cap to resign Davis.

[cordobes]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Yeps, that's what I said. It doesn't mean they can't resign Maggette because they renounced to him. They can't use the MLE because they will renounce to it in order to clear cap.

No.  They don't *have* the MLE, because they have significant cap room.  Thus, there's nothing for them to renounce.

Yes there is. They have to renounce to the MLE in order to make the cap room.

[Roy Hobbs]

Yes there is. They have to renounce to the MLE in order to make the cap room.

See my post above.  I'm pretty sure you're incorrect on that.  I understand the concept of renouncing the MLE, but I don't believe it applies here, because the Clippers will lose access to the MLE as soon as they have significant cap room (i.e., cap room in excess of $7.6 million).

[cordobes]

Couldn't the Clippers sign Davis and Brand and then use the full MLE on Maggette? If they could that would be a pretty strong team

Davis/ knight
Mobley/ Gordon
Maggette/ Thomas
Brand/ Thorton
Kaman

that team would be top 4 in the west IMO

No, that can't be done.  In order to sign Davis in the first place, they have to renounce Maggette.  Once they renounce him, they can't sign him using the MLE.

Didn't know that. Why not?

I think they can't use the MLE because they have to renounce it to clear cap holds.

Basically, if team payroll + amount of MLE (and other exceptions you have access to) < salary cap at any time, you don't have access to the MLE. 

Here, in order to sign Davis, the team needs to do two things first: sign Brand to a new deal (thus removing his cap hold) and renouncing Maggette.  Once they do so, they'll be below the salary cap (at a level greater than the amount of the MLE), meaning it would disappear for them.

Essentially, teams below the salary cap can't use the MLE.  That's not accurate in every case, but it's a good general rule.  As Larry Coon explains:

The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Yeps, that's what I said. It doesn't mean they can't resign Maggette because they renounced to him. They can't use the MLE because they will renounce to it in order to clear cap.

No.  They don't *have* the MLE, because they have significant cap room.  Thus, there's nothing for them to renounce.

As I stated above:

  I don't think it's a matter of renouncing it, because I don't think they'd have it to begin with (once they had significant cap room at any time, meaning cap room in excess of their available exceptions).

Basically, once the Clippers have roughly $7.6 million in cap room *at any time*, they lose their MLE for the entirety of this season.  Once they sign Brand and renounce Maggette, they'll have this excess cap room, and the MLE goes *poof*.

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Yes there is. They have to renounce to the MLE in order to make the cap room.

See my post above.  I'm pretty sure you're incorrect on that.  I understand the concept of renouncing the MLE, but I don't believe it applies here, because the Clippers will lose access to the MLE as soon as they have significant cap room (i.e., cap room in excess of $7.6 million).

20.  How do exceptions count against the cap?  Does being under the cap always mean that a team has room to sign free agents?  Do teams ever lose their exceptions?

If a team is below the cap, then their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap.  This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question numbers 29, 30, 31, 32).  A team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions.  Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap.  If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary.  There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.
So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents.  For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries.  They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).


Starting January 10 of each season, the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual, Larry Bird, Early-Bird and Non-Bird exceptions begin to reduce in value.  For example, if there are 180 days in the season, then these exceptions (if they are still unused) reduce by 1/180 of their initial value each day starting January 10.  If a team uses their $5 million Mid-Level exception on February 1, then the exception is actually worth $4,361,111.


The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with.  This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap.  If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn't get the exception.  If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.

For example, with a $49.5 million salary cap, assume it's the offseason, and a team has $41 million committed to salaries, along with a Mid-Level exception for $5 million, a Traded Player exception for $2.5 million, and an unrenounced free agent whose free agent amount is $2 million.  Their salaries and exceptions total $50.5 million, or $1 million over the cap.  What if their free agent signs with another team?  The $2 million free agent amount comes off their cap, so their team salary drops to $48.5 million.  This total is below the cap so the team loses its Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions.

There is logic behind this.  The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap.  In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.  If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot.  Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.   The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

[Roy Hobbs]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

[cordobes]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

So, how do they sign Davis if you're right? What is "lost" is the ability to use the MLE to sign FA, it keeps counting as a cap hold. Hence, you have to renounce it to make room.

They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

[BudweiserCeltic]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

So, how do they sign Davis if you're right?

They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

The Davis situation has little to do with the MLE... The rights to Corey Maggette (bird rights), who counts towards the cap as a free-agent, should be renounced to make the cap room. And of course, some agreement between Brand to lower his salary apparently.

[Roy Hobbs]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

So, how do they sign Davis if you're right? What is "lost" is the ability to use the MLE to sign FA, it keeps counting as a cap hold. Hence, you have to renounce it to make room.

They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

You're disregarding this part:

The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with.  This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap.  If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn't get the exception.  If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.

Once this happens, the MLE disappears, and obviously, the MLE-hold disappears, as well.

AS coon says, "the team doesn't get the exception".  Not "the team has to renounce its exception".  It doesn't get it at all (or has it taken away) and thus doesn't have to renounce it.

We're basically talking semantics here, because either way the team doesn't get to use the MLE.  However, you're incorrect as to why.  The situation you're talking about is when a team has, say, $7 million in "cap room", but can't use it because there's an MLE hold.  In that case, you renounce the MLE (and your LLE), and you can sign a free agent to a $7 million contract; if you hadn't renounced the MLE, you wouldn't be able to.

[cordobes]

You're disregarding this part:
 

[dang], I was. TP for the explanation, I stand corrected. Delete my former 12312 posts. 

We're basically talking semantics here, because either way the team doesn't get to use the MLE.  However, you're incorrect as to why.  The situation you're talking about is when a team has, say, $7 million in "cap room", but can't use it because there's an MLE hold.  In that case, you renounce the MLE (and your LLE), and you can sign a free agent to a $7 million contract; if you hadn't renounced the MLE, you wouldn't be able to.

Exactly, exactly. I should have read it.

[/quote]