Doc Venting (merged threads)

[vinnie]

IF this team goes out in the first round after winning 66 games, and Doc Rivers is not fired, it will be a complete joke.  Now just win the freaking game tomorrow.

[guava_wrench]

Some people like to blame coaches and refs when their team loses. That's just the way many fans are.

There were even some fools who immediately started blaming doc when Ray took that last 3 of his. The play Doc drew up was to KG, not to Ray, but Ray chose to shoot. Here is Doc's quote:

(On three-point miss by Ray Allen) "With about 20 seconds left we tried to get Ray (Allen) to come off a pick around Kevin (Garnett), not take a shot, and then dump it off to Kevin. In a two-point game, I liked our chances. I will never question a shot from Ray."

Then again, there were also people blaming Rondo for taking that last 3 when the Hawks had everyone else covered. That is actually the play I didn't like. The ball should have already been in the hands of the shooter, like the Hawks would have done with JJ.

[nickagneta]

I read through about 3 pages of this thread and then I had to stop. I couldn't take anymore.

First off people. WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!! HELLO!!!!! WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!!

Second, anyone who assumes a sweep in any playoff series of any professional American sport is just fooling themselves. All this talk of how we should have swept this series three games ago is rubbish. The players on the other teams are professional basketball players with an intense competitive drive as well.

The constant second guessing of Doc Rivers is practically a prerequisite for being allowed to write in this blog.

"Sam sucks we should be playing Eddie House." Of course if Eddie continued his late season slide that had him down to 35% shooting by April and if he got rattled by pressure and caused a turnover or two we all know we would be hearing this:

"Why did we even bother getting Sam Cassell if we're not going to play him. Sam has always been a big game, playoff guy. Doc should be fired if he doesn't play Sam I Am."

"Ray Allen can't guard a shadow we need to be playing Tony Allen a bunch of his minutes." Of course these are most likely the same people who have been killing Tony all year because he doesn't have the same hops, can't finish like he used to, is dumb, is a turnover machine, can't dribble, and is an overrated defender. Of course if Tony went in and missed a couple of shots and had one or two of his Tony Allen special turnovers we all know we'd be hearing:

"Doc is an idiot. What is he doing playing Tony Allen minutes when we have one of the greatest pure shooters in the history of the league sitting on the bench making $17 million."

"Why is Doc using P J Brown when Big Baby has been just fine all year?" Of course no one wants to admit that Davis only had a decent game one out of every four games and was a non factor or minor contributor the other three games. Once again if Baby came in and racked up the fouls and had the more athletic and talented Smith and Horford out rebounding and out scoring him we all know we would have heard:

"We got P J Brown for just this type of situation. Just a small amount of time on the floor and we need his toughness and defense. Why did we get him if Doc isn't going to use him."

"Why has Doc never gotten a proper 8-9 man rotation going." Well we all know what's currently happening. Those same people that were saying this before the playoffs started are also the ones saying:

"Where's Eddie? Where's Tony? Where's BBD? Why isn't Doc using more of his bench when his rotation guys aren't getting the job done?"

I could go on and on and on with the duplicitous way 75% of the posters in this blog act when it comes to Doc and how he does things. We can always be comforted with the fact that if the Celtics aren't winning every game by 20 or more that there will be a new thread questioning another minor move that Doc made.

I am in no way saying that people don't have a right to voice their opinion on Doc so please, just don't go there with the whole "This would be a boring place if we only did rah rah cheering stuff all the time".

That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about all you people who will say for Doc to do one thing one day or week and the complete opposite a day or week later. I'm talking about you people who will do nothing but blame everything on this coach and not look at the poor performance of play and hold players responsible for their work. I'm talking about all you people who assume because you read a blog or read the newspaper or listen to talk radio that you have a proper pulse on this team and everything that is happening behind the scenes.

I just can't take reading all this crap anymore. I try to read a thread and it doesn't matter what the thread is there's someone knocking Doc.

I've disagreed with some of his moves this offseason and have commented on it. I also believe that if this team loses tomorrow that Doc should be fired. But I also lay 99% of the blame for the losses in Atlanta on the players. The Celtic players and the Hawks players. I mean we are actually playing a professional playoff team and not Boston College, or did some of you forget that. Atlanta is responsible for a large part of the reason for those losses.

Sorry people Doc is just not as bad as anyone on this site says he is and he's probably forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever learn in 3 lifetimes.

I swear I think I'm going to have to stop coming to this site until after the playoffs are over. This constant vacillating, duplicitous Monday morning coaching and it's constant invading of other threads makes it hard to come here sometimes.

[tanner]

Regarding not playing more of the energy guys, even if to give the starters a bit of rest, I can only think that Doc is being overly psychological.  Meaning he doesn't want to let the other team dictate the Celtics' rotations, the way Dallas did in the first game against Golden State last year, trying to go small against the Warrior in game 1, leading to a lot of Avery Johnson bashing after that game 1 loss.

I hope that's not the case, because it would be a major error in thinking, and playing our energy guys would not be on par with what Avery Johnson did to start that series.

Or, did Danny and Doc decide to use this series as a tester for Cassell, and Brown, figuring we'd beat them either way with ease, and also get a sense of how much to use those two in future series?  That would also be a major mistake, if it were the case.

Don't complicate things and dwell in the realm of psychology or sentimentality!!!!  Look two feet in front of you and see what you need!!!!!

We haven't need Eddie, Tony or Big Baby at home, but we've needed them on the road, and a little burn in the home games would have helped to be ready for their road appearances!!!

I like Sam Cassell.  He adds to this Celtics team.  If we go all the way, he may hit some of the biggest shots for us.  The game 6 loss is not his fault.  But, don't be so precious with him, if Joe Johnson heats up and starts to get wherever he wants and do whatever he wants, stick Posey or Tony Allen on him immediately.  Don't wait.  Don't feel things out.  Act!!!!

By the way, I took advantage of Tommy's absence from the broadcast to watch the national channel, the first game with a worthy national broadcast team imo.  Some weird humor from Van Gundy, but also some interesting insights and a fresh changeup from Mike G and Donny, both of whom I have no problem with....I love the Gorman Heinsoln duo.....

By the

i think that's it.  problem is, PJ is so outmatched against these athletic and hustling hawks.  six games into this series and Doc hasn't figured that one yet.

cassell is a trickier subject.  i understand doc playing sam now at the expense of eddie yet i also get why people are so against sam.  this team needs sam's composure and clutch shooting in close games and when rondo is showing his true age. (i know it wasn't apparent in the last game, as both weren't effective.)

but sam now just takes too many shots and the team is thrown out of rhythm because of this.  just how many shots?  he's second in per-48 FGA in this team ahead of paul pierce and ray allen. when he's hitting his shots, then it's tolerated by doc.   

this is why I think using TA once in a while (but not too often as we're all aware of his shortcomings) for Ray when Doc has cassell in there isn't such a bad idea. since sam will be taking most of the shots anyway, why not rest ray and bring in a penetrator and a better perimeter defender to offset cassell's defensive defencies.   

anyway, it's game 7 and using TA or house is out of question.  doc has to stick with the players he's played in this series.  he should use baby though over PJ if he needs to use a 2nd big off the bench.

[tenn_smoothie]

actually, i've never been duplicitous.

i've never liked Doc Rivers. he's afraid of his own players and i've never seen him make strong, decisive moves that produce wins.

somewhere, the real Big 3 are smiling at all this with just a little amusement.

[Roy Hobbs]

Good insight by John Hollinger:

Meanwhile, there's also the question of Rivers' roster management. The book on Rivers has been that he's great when he only has seven guys who can play but mind-boggling when he has 12, because he'll rotate them in and out with no rhyme or reason.

Friday night was a good example. He used 12 players by the one-minute mark of the second quarter -- what is this, Little League? -- and once again seemed to show remarkably little trust in Rajon Rondo down the stretch. While veteran Sam Cassell certainly has the track record of hitting big shots, he's been brutally bad in all three games in Atlanta and Rivers has stuck with him in fourth quarters.

Up front, Rivers can't decide whether Glen Davis or P.J. Brown should be his fourth big man … except in Game 3, when the massively productive Leon Powe suddenly found himself on the outs. One suspects that ultimately he's getting less out of all three with this approach.

Speaking of Rondo, Rivers also made a truly odd move at the very end of Game 6. With 10 seconds left, he subbed Eddie House for Rondo to get more offense on the floor; then after a quick basket by Kevin Garnett, he subbed Rondo back in for defense.

Here's the weird part: Once the Celtics fouled Bibby, Rivers never put House back in for Rondo. He didn't have a timeout, but when Bibby missed the first three throw, it was clear a 3-pointer was what Boston needed, and that's House's specialty. Instead, Rondo had the ball at the end for a desperation triple that missed.

[CelticBalla32]

I got this quote from the video on CelticsVision on Celtics.com:

"I wasn't concerned with the execution, I thought it was pretty good in some ways."

  Wow.

[ma11l]

It's been stated at least 100 different ways on this site, but I'll state it as plainly as I possibly can, Doc is an idiot.

[Edgar]

I got this quote from the video on CelticsVision on Celtics.com:

"I wasn't concerned with the execution, I thought it was pretty good in some ways."

  Wow.

but merged

[EJPLAYA]

I read through about 3 pages of this thread and then I had to stop. I couldn't take anymore.

First off people. WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!! HELLO!!!!! WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!!

Second, anyone who assumes a sweep in any playoff series of any professional American sport is just fooling themselves. All this talk of how we should have swept this series three games ago is rubbish. The players on the other teams are professional basketball players with an intense competitive drive as well.

The constant second guessing of Doc Rivers is practically a prerequisite for being allowed to write in this blog.

"Sam sucks we should be playing Eddie House." Of course if Eddie continued his late season slide that had him down to 35% shooting by April and if he got rattled by pressure and caused a turnover or two we all know we would be hearing this:

"Why did we even bother getting Sam Cassell if we're not going to play him. Sam has always been a big game, playoff guy. Doc should be fired if he doesn't play Sam I Am."

"Ray Allen can't guard a shadow we need to be playing Tony Allen a bunch of his minutes." Of course these are most likely the same people who have been killing Tony all year because he doesn't have the same hops, can't finish like he used to, is dumb, is a turnover machine, can't dribble, and is an overrated defender. Of course if Tony went in and missed a couple of shots and had one or two of his Tony Allen special turnovers we all know we'd be hearing:

"Doc is an idiot. What is he doing playing Tony Allen minutes when we have one of the greatest pure shooters in the history of the league sitting on the bench making $17 million."

"Why is Doc using P J Brown when Big Baby has been just fine all year?" Of course no one wants to admit that Davis only had a decent game one out of every four games and was a non factor or minor contributor the other three games. Once again if Baby came in and racked up the fouls and had the more athletic and talented Smith and Horford out rebounding and out scoring him we all know we would have heard:

"We got P J Brown for just this type of situation. Just a small amount of time on the floor and we need his toughness and defense. Why did we get him if Doc isn't going to use him."

"Why has Doc never gotten a proper 8-9 man rotation going." Well we all know what's currently happening. Those same people that were saying this before the playoffs started are also the ones saying:

"Where's Eddie? Where's Tony? Where's BBD? Why isn't Doc using more of his bench when his rotation guys aren't getting the job done?"

I could go on and on and on with the duplicitous way 75% of the posters in this blog act when it comes to Doc and how he does things. We can always be comforted with the fact that if the Celtics aren't winning every game by 20 or more that there will be a new thread questioning another minor move that Doc made.

I am in no way saying that people don't have a right to voice their opinion on Doc so please, just don't go there with the whole "This would be a boring place if we only did rah rah cheering stuff all the time".

That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about all you people who will say for Doc to do one thing one day or week and the complete opposite a day or week later. I'm talking about you people who will do nothing but blame everything on this coach and not look at the poor performance of play and hold players responsible for their work. I'm talking about all you people who assume because you read a blog or read the newspaper or listen to talk radio that you have a proper pulse on this team and everything that is happening behind the scenes.

I just can't take reading all this crap anymore. I try to read a thread and it doesn't matter what the thread is there's someone knocking Doc.

I've disagreed with some of his moves this offseason and have commented on it. I also believe that if this team loses tomorrow that Doc should be fired. But I also lay 99% of the blame for the losses in Atlanta on the players. The Celtic players and the Hawks players. I mean we are actually playing a professional playoff team and not Boston College, or did some of you forget that. Atlanta is responsible for a large part of the reason for those losses.

Sorry people Doc is just not as bad as anyone on this site says he is and he's probably forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever learn in 3 lifetimes.

I swear I think I'm going to have to stop coming to this site until after the playoffs are over. This constant vacillating, duplicitous Monday morning coaching and it's constant invading of other threads makes it hard to come here sometimes.

We don't always agree nickagenta, but that was very well said. It is okay to question specific moves made and discuss them, but to go to the extremes one day and then the next is crazy. Doc gets killed on this blog, but never credit when they win. Doc had things to blame on the 3 losses in this series, but no where near as much as the stars on the floor. It is amazing how people's opinions shift from game to game. We will win tomorrow, get through this, and give Cleveland more than they want. Hopefully we squeak by that one too. Then we will need to squeak by Orlando or Detroit and then to the finals which hopefully we will squeak by. Guys. This is the playoffs. Atlanta has some talented guys who we overlooked after those two blowouts and gave them just enough confidence to make it a series. They will be  a big force in a year or two. Let's not forget that we aren't the only one with stars... Maybe Bibby is right. Maybe we have way too many fair weather fans.

[Edgar]

I read through about 3 pages of this thread and then I had to stop. I couldn't take anymore.

First off people. WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!! HELLO!!!!! WE HAVEN'T LOSS YET!!

Second, anyone who assumes a sweep in any playoff series of any professional American sport is just fooling themselves. All this talk of how we should have swept this series three games ago is rubbish. The players on the other teams are professional basketball players with an intense competitive drive as well.

The constant second guessing of Doc Rivers is practically a prerequisite for being allowed to write in this blog.

"Sam sucks we should be playing Eddie House." Of course if Eddie continued his late season slide that had him down to 35% shooting by April and if he got rattled by pressure and caused a turnover or two we all know we would be hearing this:

"Why did we even bother getting Sam Cassell if we're not going to play him. Sam has always been a big game, playoff guy. Doc should be fired if he doesn't play Sam I Am."

"Ray Allen can't guard a shadow we need to be playing Tony Allen a bunch of his minutes." Of course these are most likely the same people who have been killing Tony all year because he doesn't have the same hops, can't finish like he used to, is dumb, is a turnover machine, can't dribble, and is an overrated defender. Of course if Tony went in and missed a couple of shots and had one or two of his Tony Allen special turnovers we all know we'd be hearing:

"Doc is an idiot. What is he doing playing Tony Allen minutes when we have one of the greatest pure shooters in the history of the league sitting on the bench making $17 million."

"Why is Doc using P J Brown when Big Baby has been just fine all year?" Of course no one wants to admit that Davis only had a decent game one out of every four games and was a non factor or minor contributor the other three games. Once again if Baby came in and racked up the fouls and had the more athletic and talented Smith and Horford out rebounding and out scoring him we all know we would have heard:

"We got P J Brown for just this type of situation. Just a small amount of time on the floor and we need his toughness and defense. Why did we get him if Doc isn't going to use him."

"Why has Doc never gotten a proper 8-9 man rotation going." Well we all know what's currently happening. Those same people that were saying this before the playoffs started are also the ones saying:

"Where's Eddie? Where's Tony? Where's BBD? Why isn't Doc using more of his bench when his rotation guys aren't getting the job done?"

I could go on and on and on with the duplicitous way 75% of the posters in this blog act when it comes to Doc and how he does things. We can always be comforted with the fact that if the Celtics aren't winning every game by 20 or more that there will be a new thread questioning another minor move that Doc made.

I am in no way saying that people don't have a right to voice their opinion on Doc so please, just don't go there with the whole "This would be a boring place if we only did rah rah cheering stuff all the time".

That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about all you people who will say for Doc to do one thing one day or week and the complete opposite a day or week later. I'm talking about you people who will do nothing but blame everything on this coach and not look at the poor performance of play and hold players responsible for their work. I'm talking about all you people who assume because you read a blog or read the newspaper or listen to talk radio that you have a proper pulse on this team and everything that is happening behind the scenes.

I just can't take reading all this crap anymore. I try to read a thread and it doesn't matter what the thread is there's someone knocking Doc.

I've disagreed with some of his moves this offseason and have commented on it. I also believe that if this team loses tomorrow that Doc should be fired. But I also lay 99% of the blame for the losses in Atlanta on the players. The Celtic players and the Hawks players. I mean we are actually playing a professional playoff team and not Boston College, or did some of you forget that. Atlanta is responsible for a large part of the reason for those losses.

Sorry people Doc is just not as bad as anyone on this site says he is and he's probably forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever learn in 3 lifetimes.

I swear I think I'm going to have to stop coming to this site until after the playoffs are over. This constant vacillating, duplicitous Monday morning coaching and it's constant invading of other threads makes it hard to come here sometimes.

We don't always agree nickagenta, but that was very well said. It is okay to question specific moves made and discuss them, but to go to the extremes one day and then the next is crazy. Doc gets killed on this blog, but never credit when they win. Doc had things to blame on the 3 losses in this series, but no where near as much as the stars on the floor. It is amazing how people's opinions shift from game to game. We will win tomorrow, get through this, and give Cleveland more than they want. Hopefully we squeak by that one too. Then we will need to squeak by Orlando or Detroit and then to the finals which hopefully we will squeak by. Guys. This is the playoffs. Atlanta has some talented guys who we overlooked after those two blowouts and gave them just enough confidence to make it a series. They will be  a big force in a year or two. Let's not forget that we aren't the only one with stars... Maybe Bibby is right. Maybe we have way too many fair weather fans.

thank God no one of those are here in CBn

[blueygreen]

I think people like to blame Doc and Danny because they are the only people they can blame. We're not going to see a 'KG is an idiot' bandwagon, and that we should buy him out or something. Even though we all know that he needs to get his act together. I think we're so used to winning (or losing depending on how recent the fandom is), that it's very easy to find something to blame.

[BASSTHUMPER]

i would blame paul...this is his team...yeah i know..no i in team and all that but somebody has to take over on the court cause the hugs and cussin before the game will be the same hugs and cussin after you lose game 7 at home....somebody gotta see ME not WE....cause so far it aint workin the other way....

[tanner]

objectivity is the last thing anyone should expect from a fan board. every fan has their pet peeve.  doc is a major pet peeve among many celtics posters.  deal with it, guys.  it's really no different from posters who have a thing against the refs or certain players.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

I vote with the professional, John Hollinger. . .

Good insight by John Hollinger:

Meanwhile, there's also the question of Rivers' roster management. The book on Rivers has been that he's great when he only has seven guys who can play but mind-boggling when he has 12, because he'll rotate them in and out with no rhyme or reason.

Friday night was a good example. He used 12 players by the one-minute mark of the second quarter -- what is this, Little League? -- and once again seemed to show remarkably little trust in Rajon Rondo down the stretch. While veteran Sam Cassell certainly has the track record of hitting big shots, he's been brutally bad in all three games in Atlanta and Rivers has stuck with him in fourth quarters.

Up front, Rivers can't decide whether Glen Davis or P.J. Brown should be his fourth big man … except in Game 3, when the massively productive Leon Powe suddenly found himself on the outs. One suspects that ultimately he's getting less out of all three with this approach.

Speaking of Rondo, Rivers also made a truly odd move at the very end of Game 6. With 10 seconds left, he subbed Eddie House for Rondo to get more offense on the floor; then after a quick basket by Kevin Garnett, he subbed Rondo back in for defense.

Here's the weird part: Once the Celtics fouled Bibby, Rivers never put House back in for Rondo. He didn't have a timeout, but when Bibby missed the first three throw, it was clear a 3-pointer was what Boston needed, and that's House's specialty. Instead, Rondo had the ball at the end for a desperation triple that missed.