Doc Venting (merged threads)

[CeltsGM21]

This post is pointed toward my comment.  Just for the record, I didn't take any offense to it, and I agree that everyone on here has their own opinions and is allowed to express them.  The response, "stop," coming from a moderator did startle me a bit, as it seemed to be telling me that I'm not allowed to express my opinion, but then again, I did call out some Doc haters.  Either way, I just wanted to stand up for myself a little bit, but also say that it didn't bother me, and that I'm glad that a site like this one allows us to express our beliefs, concerns, anger, etc.  Let's just not take it personally.  The great thing about it is that it shows we are all very passionate about our Celtics no matter what, and people have different ways in expressing it.  I just choose to support the team no matter what, and I'm going to stick with that in my posts.

Bottom line, Celtics showed a lot of passion right along with their fans today, and I'm just elated that we are finally done with the pesky hawks and can move on to Cleveland.  I love this team so much, I just didn't want to stop watching them.  What a great game and what a great fan site.  Go Celtics!

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Stop. 

No one is abandoning the Celtics.  No one is blaming Doc 100%.  No one is yelling 'I told you so'



There are a lot of angry Celtics fan because they see their team playing so far below what they are capable of. 


They are seeing their team melt down on the road.  Melting down just like the last time they were in the playoffs. 



They are looking at a coach that has done nothing to right the ship.  A coach who is making excuses. 



People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

[winsomme]

This post is pointed toward my comment.  Just for the record, I didn't take any offense to it, and I agree that everyone on here has their own opinions and is allowed to express them.  The response, "stop," coming from a moderator did startle me a bit, as it seemed to be telling me that I'm not allowed to express my opinion, but then again, I did call out some Doc haters.  Either way, I just wanted to stand up for myself a little bit, but also say that it didn't bother me, and that I'm glad that a site like this one allows us to express our beliefs, concerns, anger, etc.  Let's just not take it personally.  The great thing about it is that it shows we are all very passionate about our Celtics no matter what, and people have different ways in expressing it.  I just choose to support the team no matter what, and I'm going to stick with that in my posts.

Bottom line, Celtics showed a lot of passion right along with their fans today, and I'm just elated that we are finally done with the pesky hawks and can move on to Cleveland.  I love this team so much, I just didn't want to stop watching them.  What a great game and what a great fan site.  Go Celtics!

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Stop. 

No one is abandoning the Celtics.  No one is blaming Doc 100%.  No one is yelling 'I told you so'



There are a lot of angry Celtics fan because they see their team playing so far below what they are capable of. 


They are seeing their team melt down on the road.  Melting down just like the last time they were in the playoffs. 



They are looking at a coach that has done nothing to right the ship.  A coach who is making excuses. 



People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

TP, CeltsGM. i agree 100% that this was not the time to bail on this team.

there is no shame in going 7 games in the playoffs (expected or unexpected). win and advance is the name of the game.

this team is still very new to the playoffs as a unit and they need to learn how to play together in what really is a new environment for them.

they are attempting to do something that is basically unprecedented in NBA history......worst to first.

and this was just one step in a long grueling process (from a sports perspective) and as fans that requires sticking by the team even when things don't look good...we have another tough series ahead of us and most likely more bumps in the road.

buckle up..

[Bahku]

I don't think any team that played all seven games in their first series, has ever made it to the Finals, let alone won the Championship, so they've got a lot of odds against them, and will set a lot of precidence if they do.

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

Not all bad, mind you, but not all good, either ... honestly.

[praypad]

I don't think any team that played all seven games in their first series, has ever made it to the Finals, let alone won the Championship, so they've got a lot of odds against them, and will set a lot of precidence if they do.

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

Not all bad, mind you, but not all good, either ... honestly.

[Edited.] The Celtics won by 30+ points and the rotation is questionable???  And what the hell does no team playing a seven game series has never won ... have to do with anything?  It means nothing!  [Edited.]

------

Further personal attacks of this nature will result in a suspension.  They are completely unacceptable.  Do not do it again. -R.H.

[Bahku]

I don't think any team that played all seven games in their first series, has ever made it to the Finals, let alone won the Championship, so they've got a lot of odds against them, and will set a lot of precidence if they do.

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

Not all bad, mind you, but not all good, either ... honestly.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.  The Celtics won by 30+ points and the rotation is questionable???  And what the hell does no team playing a seven game series has never won ... have to do with anything?  It means nothing!  I have no idea what is wrong with some of you people.  Please, take you meds and have a good nappy.  Think before you post.

That was just a unique stat ... I posted it because I felt some might find it interesting. As far as the rotation, there were times today when it was highly questionable, that's how I see it. We respect each others opinions here, whether we agree or not, and this kind of personal attack is way over the line, OK?

Just because this was a blowout, doesn't mean the rotation was perfect, and if you see it that way, you need to go back and view the game again. Please don't ever make nasty comments in my or anyone else's direction again! An old proverb to keep in mind in the future: It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

[Roy Hobbs]

Do not make personal attacks, under any circumstances.  If you can't disagree with another poster without demeaning them, do not post at all.

[Who]

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

What didn't you like about the rotation?

It was very similar to past games while the game was still competitive.

[winsomme]

I don't think any team that played all seven games in their first series, has ever made it to the Finals, let alone won the Championship, so they've got a lot of odds against them, and will set a lot of precidence if they do.

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

Not all bad, mind you, but not all good, either ... honestly.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.  The Celtics won by 30+ points and the rotation is questionable???  And what the hell does no team playing a seven game series has never won ... have to do with anything?  It means nothing!  I have no idea what is wrong with some of you people.  Please, take you meds and have a good nappy.  Think before you post.

That was just a unique stat ... I posted it because I felt some might find it interesting. As far as the rotation, there were times today when it was highly questionable, that's how I see it. We respect each others opinions here, whether we agree or not, and this kind of personal attack is way over the line, OK?

Just because this was a blowout, doesn't mean the rotation was perfect, and if you see it that way, you need to go back and view the game again. Please don't ever make nasty comments in my or anyone else's direction again! An old proverb to keep in mind in the future: It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

couple of things.

generally i don't like personal attacks. they tend to stifle good honest debate.

sometimes in the heat of battle we write things that go over the line.

this one in particular seems to be an unwarranted attack. TP Bahku for stating your case.

anyway, on the topic, i would say this whole season is unprecedented. i mean, how many teams have gone from 29th in the league to first?

and the first round has only been seven games for how many years now? not that long...

[Who]

and the first round has only been seven games for how many years now? not that long...

Five years. They brought in at the end of the Laker's three peat.

Last champion to be pushed to the limit in the first round was the 1999-2000 Lakers I believe. It was their first title of the three-peat coming after a 67 win season. They won 3-2 over Sacramento. The Kings were a very good 8th seed. Sacramento won 44 games and won 55 games the following season after strengthening their supporting cast. That was the Lakers first title. They dod have a couple of runs for prior to that season though, three seasons I think.

[winsomme]

and the first round has only been seven games for how many years now? not that long...

Five years. They brought in at the end of the Laker's three peat.

Last champion to be pushed to the limit in the first round was the 1999-2000 Lakers I believe. It was their first title of the three-peat coming after a 67 win season. They won 3-2 over Sacramento. The Kings were a very good 8th seed. Sacramento won 44 games and won 55 games the following season after strengthening their supporting cast. That was the Lakers first title. They dod have a couple of runs for prior to that season though, three seasons I think.

i think the Heat went to what 6 in their first round series...

[Bahku]

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

What didn't you like about the rotation?

It was very similar to past games while the game was still competitive.

Yup ... similar to past games, where the rotation was also questionable. And I didn't say the game wasn't competitive, I said the bench played great, so the rotation didn't become a problem. It's obviously opinion and how you see it, but I see some things in the rotation as being off.

PLEASE keep in mind, this is my opinion. In a game like this there should be at least one of the Big Three on the floor at all times, for leadership, and there were times that there wasn't. I think that Sam's minutes should be very limited, and that when he's in, it should be at times when say two of the Big Three are in, not when it's all subs ... it changes the tempo too drastically.

I think Eddie House should play as much as Sam, for different reasons ... he brings more energy and the tempo doesn't die. I think PJ should be used as a last resort, and not near the top of the rotation. I think the starting five should play more minutes, unless there's a blowout like today.

I feel that Doc pulls everybody at once too often ... there are times, when the starting five are playing at their peak, that he pulls the whole team, and replaces them with the deep bench, then he'll bring in starters at a stagger, and everyone seems unsure about what the offensive scheme is because those particular players don't usually play together.

There were times when the players Doc put in neither fit their position nor matched-up well with the opponent. Sometimes he puts a player in for size reasons when what we need is a player who matches up with intensity, not size. There are combinations of players that are very effective for certain offensive/defensive sets, and yet Doc seems to ignore those considerations at times.

There are also times when he'll put in a "veteran" before a younger player, even when the younger player is more effective at that match-up, just because he likes veterans. Sorry, but I just see a pattern of considerations, or a lack of considerations, that aren't very sensible, or very effective, and I question what the motivations are.

Once again though, when we win big, it's an absolute travesty to "question" Doc, when it seems to be OK if we lose. We should be able to criticize and analyze Doc's performance like we do the players, and whether some want to admit it or not, he makes mistakes ... in every game, and there's nothing wrong with discussing it ... or at least there shouldn't be anything wrong with it.

What worries me most about these questionable decisions, is that he repeats them, and doesn't seem to make the adjustments that put the team in the best position to WIN!

[Who]

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

What didn't you like about the rotation?

It was very similar to past games while the game was still competitive.

 And I didn't say the game wasn't competitive, I said the bench played great, so the rotation didn't become a problem.

I said competitive because that's the only part of the game were I care about the rotation. The game was well out of hand by late in the third quarter so I don't care about the rest. That's why I said "while the game was still competitive".

In a game like this there should be at least one of the Big Three on the floor at all times, for leadership, and there were times that there wasn't.

One of three was on the floor at all times while the game was still competitive (by my definition above, late third quarter). We had no period were the team was without one of the Big Three.

The starting unit played the entire first quarter except for KG who came off 2-3 minutes before the end. Pierce played with the second unit for the first three minutes, then Ray subbed in for Paul. KG subbed in two minutes later. There was two of the three involved for the rest of the half.

Pierce played the entire third. KG and Ray played the first nine minutes. The result was in hand by the time they sat down. They were up 32 points at that time. Pierce stayed in until a minute or two into the fourth, none of the Big Three played after that.

I was pretty happy to see one of the Big Three on the floor at all times while the game was competitive. None of those all bench player units. That's why I was wondering what your complaint was.

For 31 of the first 36 minutes there was even two of the Big Three on the floor. That's pretty good.

....................

I'd rather see Eddie at the point too but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

PJ looked pretty good today. He helped to further fluster young Horford. He stopped him in the post and caused a couple of turnovers.

Posey and Powe belonged on the court so I was happy to see them. Those four bench players were the only ones to play prior to the fourth quarter. Unlike Game 6 when he went 12 deep in the first 13 minutes.

........................

Again why I said while the game was competitive, I don't care about the fourth. We were up 36 points over a team that had only mustered 45 in the first three quarters. The contest was over. No reason for the big hitters to stay on the court unless Atlanta start making a big run. It doesn't matter who's playing at that stage as long as they're holding on which they did.

[Bahku]

That said, to be completely honest, there were some really questionable calls by Doc today, and a puzzling rotation. Thank goodness everyone was on, and the good play of the bench bailed him out. No way you can convince me that everything he did today made sense ... it just happened to not blow up in his face.

What didn't you like about the rotation?

It was very similar to past games while the game was still competitive.

 And I didn't say the game wasn't competitive, I said the bench played great, so the rotation didn't become a problem.

I said competitive because that's the only part of the game were I care about the rotation. The game was well out of hand by late in the third quarter so I don't care about the rest. That's why I said "while the game was still competitive".

In a game like this there should be at least one of the Big Three on the floor at all times, for leadership, and there were times that there wasn't.

One of three was on the floor at all times while the game was still competitive (by my definition above, late third quarter). We had no period were the team was without one of the Big Three.

The starting unit played the entire first quarter except for KG who came off 2-3 minutes before the end. Pierce played with the second unit for the first three minutes, then Ray subbed in for Paul. KG subbed in two minutes later. There was two of the three involved for the rest of the half.

Pierce played the entire third. KG and Ray played the first nine minutes. The result was in hand by the time they sat down. They were up 32 points at that time. Pierce stayed in until a minute or two into the fourth, none of the Big Three played after that.

I was pretty happy to see one of the Big Three on the floor at all times while the game was competitive. None of those all bench player units. That's why I was wondering what your complaint was.

For 31 of the first 36 minutes there was even two of the Big Three on the floor. That's pretty good.

....................

I'd rather see Eddie at the point too but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

PJ looked pretty good today. He helped to further fluster young Horford. He stopped him in the post and caused a couple of turnovers.

Posey and Powe belonged on the court so I was happy to see them. Those four bench players were the only ones to play prior to the fourth quarter. Unlike Game 6 when he went 12 deep in the first 13 minutes.

........................

Again why I said while the game was competitive, I don't care about the fourth. We were up 36 points over a team that had only mustered 45 in the first three quarters. The contest was over. No reason for the big hitters to stay on the court unless Atlanta start making a big run. It doesn't matter who's playing at that stage as long as they're holding on which they did.

Great points, Who as usual (TP). I wasn't making these points about just todays games, though, but the last few overall. I also would have liked to have taken out the Big Three a little sooner in some of these blowouts, when the games were obviously out of reach. I'm not saying I'm right about all these questions I have, just wondering if it couldn't be done better.

[Who]

Whether you think today's rotation was the Celtics best or not, I think today's rotation might be as good as we see from Doc considering:

• It looks like he's going to stay with Sam Cassell as the primary backup at the point and not Eddie. There doesn't seem to be any debate about that judging from Doc's decisions
• Doc refuses to play Perkins 35 minutes a night so it's imperative that he uses two big men off the bench. It's too hard to work a three man rotation out of the bigs otherwise (especially with how he subs KG and Perk for that second unit). Doc just won't play Perk more minutes, the most minutes Perk averaged for a month was 27mpg. He averaged 24.5mpg on the season, 23.8mpg for the series. So two backup big men.
• Add one more substitution for the wing which will be Posey. And add the backup guard, Sam Cassell. A 9 man rotation is going to be as tight as it gets and it's because of Perk's minutes.
• On night's were we need another perimeter player we'll likely see a 10 man rotation where Eddie or Tony comes in (because Doc won't sacrifice on of the bigs and Sam+Posey are already in). Or if one of the two primary backup big men struggle, we'll probably see Doc shuffle the deck and bring in the third instead of putting Perkins back in
• Doc likes to have a second unit with several bench players. He did well tonight to keep one of the Big Three on the floor throughout the first three quarters and two of the three for the vast majority of the first three quarters
• Doc also seems to have an aversion to playing Rondo in that second unit instead prefering Cassell. I'd rather Rondo because he's the fourth best player and can create out there but Doc seems to be sticking to Cassell and his scoring with that unit.

Tonight's rotation might be as good as we can expect from Doc the rest of the way regardless of our own prefences

[blueygreen]

I was doing a little browsing through popcornmachine and I noticed that Tony and Eddie actually have the best +/- outside of the starting five. And that over 48 minutes, Powe would be averaging 26/14. But that's less relevant.