Doc Venting (merged threads)

[CeltsGM21]

People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

Its part of the Boston sports fans psyche - I thought winning 2 world series, 3 super bowls, etc. would change that, but it really hasn't, deep down many boston fans love to complain, and I'm not saying they want the team to fail at face, but they like having the built in excuse and the ability to say "I told you so" - how many threads have we seen where someone said something to the effect of, well at least if the c's lose doc can be fired - I'm just calling it like I see... sorry for being optimistic

If you want to defend Doc, defend Doc.


But you want to label those who question the coach as bitter fans that want to complain. 


Because the truth of it right now, no matter how much someone wants to defend Doc, there is nothing in this series anyone can point at and say Doc is doing something positive to fix the issue. 

And I hope, before this is all done, we can point at something and say Doc did his job. 

I guess I just don't see the point in bashing Doc and the team after every loss.  While it may be coming out of passion, I'm just saying that it isn't helping anything.  I guess it may make you feel better by venting, but in the end, does it really help, or just make you angrier?  And I'm not saying people aren't allowed to vent, but you also need to try to look at the positives too.

Also, I still don't quite understand how every loss falls immediately on Doc's shoulders.  I'm sure he would rather have that happen than any of his players get blamed, but it doesn't quite make sense to me.  I'm still trying to figure it out.  After the season that the C's have had under Doc, I can't believe fans are still blaming him for how the team did in the past few years, when Doc basically had the T'wolves, who, coincidentally placed just about the same as the Celtics last year.  Can you really blame him when he has players like that?  And you say you hope we can point at something and say Doc did his job?  What about this whole season?  They simply had the best team in the league.  Now that Doc finally has a team, he has shown that he can lead them to victory.  Now, if they got KG and Allen, and still struggled, then count me out as a Doc fan.  But come on.  Don't say he hasn't earned it yet.  He's still learning with the players how to win a playoff series.  I believe that this will make them stronger.  They are still a relatively new team.  But they'll turn this around and use this series as a building block.

[wdleehi]

People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

Its part of the Boston sports fans psyche - I thought winning 2 world series, 3 super bowls, etc. would change that, but it really hasn't, deep down many boston fans love to complain, and I'm not saying they want the team to fail at face, but they like having the built in excuse and the ability to say "I told you so" - how many threads have we seen where someone said something to the effect of, well at least if the c's lose doc can be fired - I'm just calling it like I see... sorry for being optimistic

If you want to defend Doc, defend Doc.


But you want to label those who question the coach as bitter fans that want to complain. 


Because the truth of it right now, no matter how much someone wants to defend Doc, there is nothing in this series anyone can point at and say Doc is doing something positive to fix the issue. 

And I hope, before this is all done, we can point at something and say Doc did his job. 

I guess I just don't see the point in bashing Doc and the team after every loss.  While it may be coming out of passion, I'm just saying that it isn't helping anything.  I guess it may make you feel better by venting, but in the end, does it really help, or just make you angrier?  And I'm not saying people aren't allowed to vent, but you also need to try to look at the positives too.

Also, I still don't quite understand how every loss falls immediately on Doc's shoulders.  I'm sure he would rather have that happen than any of his players get blamed, but it doesn't quite make sense to me.  I'm still trying to figure it out.  After the season that the C's have had under Doc, I can't believe fans are still blaming him for how the team did in the past few years, when Doc basically had the T'wolves, who, coincidentally placed just about the same as the Celtics last year.  Can you really blame him when he has players like that?  And you say you hope we can point at something and say Doc did his job?  What about this whole season?  They simply had the best team in the league.  Now that Doc finally has a team, he has shown that he can lead them to victory.  Now, if they got KG and Allen, and still struggled, then count me out as a Doc fan.  But come on.  Don't say he hasn't earned it yet.  He's still learning with the players how to win a playoff series.  I believe that this will make them stronger.  They are still a relatively new team.  But they'll turn this around and use this series as a building block.

Depends on what you care about.


Regular season performance?  Then Doc did good.


Playoff performance?   Then Doc is doing bad. 


He hasn't shown he can lead them to victory.  If he did, they would be getting ready for Cleveland right now.

[lobstermobster]

Let me focus on just one aspect of Doc's incompetence for now:
There has been a HUGE differential in FT's in this series. Arguably, it's how Atlanta has even stayed close in these games. Now maybe it's warranted or maybe it's not, BUT if Phil Jackson were coaching he'd have complained vociferously about this in the press at least once ( you don't know how much it hurts me to be bringing up Phil as an example of good coaching).

What does Doc do? Well, he throws Pierce under the bus for the technical and covers his own ass: "it's been a rule, no technicals in the 4th quarter," and then something to the effect of Crawford is right about the technical because it's a league rule that throwing a headband is an automatic technical. How about spotting the other team a 20 FT advantage? Is that a league rule? That's what Doc should be saying but he's not. Maybe he's too cheap to pay the fine.

If the C's lose tomorrow, the bright side is that Doc is gone. They will never win a championship with him as coach.

btw losing tomorrow is a real possibility. this group of Celtics detest afternoon games. they also don't deal well with pressure and this is the ultimate pressure game.

Excellent post Reggie.  Only thing I disagree with is Doc being fired.  It appears that he has always been immune to accountability for his ineptitude.  That isn't likely to change.  We'll continue to listen to Doc throw his players under the bus while getting rave reviews from commentators.    It's amusing to hear Doc talk about "rules" about technicals and so forth.  How is he going to hold Paul Pierce accountable?  Other than trashing him in the press.  As Julius Campbell said in Remember The Titans, "Attitude reflects leadership, Captain".  This is a rudderless ship going into game 7.

[vinnie]

Rudderless ship is probably the best way to describe this team right now -- 

[CeltsGM21]

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

[greendream]

Watching the end of that game was one of the most fustrating things I can remember, and I am a stay at home dad with three kids so that is saying alot.If Doc drew up that play with Ray taking a three with ten seconds left in the game that should be the end of his tenure with the Celtics. Best case scenario Ray hits that shot 40% of the time then you give Atlanta 10 seconds to hit a game winner, in a game where they were shooting 50%. That gives us a 20% shot of winning the game, if he is O.K. with that then I am not O.K. with him coaching our team. After the missed free-throw how can he put Rondo back in take out Cassell, it makes me ill. We needed K.G., Posey,House, Ray, and Cassell in there to take that last shot, instead we get Rondo dribbling the clock out and then chucking up a long three. Needless to say I can't take much more of Doc.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

[CeltsGM21]

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

Ok, let's say they do lose this series, which I highly doubt and in which case, fire doc threats and threads will be put to rest for a little while.  In my opinion, I think you have to say to yourself, what a great season.  Totally disappointing postseason, but this is this team's first postseason together.  That isn't much of an excuse, but, assuming the team doesn't change drastically next year, you have to take that into account.  And, like I said, while it will be infuriating if they lose this series, you can't completely jump ship, hire a new coach, and make this team, who has built so much chemistry have to start over again with a new coach and a new system.  Now, if this does in fact happen next year, where they lose in the first round again after a loss in the first round this year, then yes, I think it is time to look in a new direction with a new coach.

But honestly, I don't even like talking about this right now, and I don't think people should be talking about this right now, because I don't want to jinx the Celtics.  Which is why I get frustrated with all the fire doc chants right now, when we still have a series to win, and a Championship to contend for.  Stop jumping ship!  Like Doc said, don't jump!  Giving up on the coach at this point is almost like giving up on the team, and that is an unfortunate and negative way to look at things at this point.  But this happens after every loss.  When we win tomorrow, all will be right with the world again.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

While the losing in this series is frustrating, the problem is twofold:

1. Doc's terrible coaching is the "one big thing" everyone has worried about with the Celtics all year long.  Like Memphis and free throw shooting in college basketball (the Sports Guy on ESPN.com had a long article or two about critical flaws arising at the worst possible time, like relief pitching with the '86 Red Sox).  The question is not whether Doc is responsible for them losing the series, the question is how you think Doc has performed relative to, say, any coach in the playoffs in the Western Conference.  Is there any coach that was in the Western Conference playoffs with a worse playoff track record than Doc Rivers?  Even Avery Johnson made it to the finals once and Mike D'Antoni made it to the conference finals.  And if there was an open position and those three guys were up for it, would YOU hire Doc?  If so, why???

2. Even if the Celtics win this series, that doesn't prove everything was great all along.  Unless this becomes the big learning experience, etc., etc., this demonstrates a critical design flaw.  And more often than not, critical design flaws become, well, the reasons you lose rather than the thing you overcome.  It is much more frequent that a design flaw takes down a team than the design flaw gets fixed in the playoffs.  Even if the Celtics win this series, it will take a serious change for them to handle the Cavs, let alone the Pistons or Magic or whoever might await in the NBA Finals.

I want the Celtics to win.  I really do.  But Doc Rivers is not a good coach.  Everyone knows it and this playoff series has exposed it yet again.  If the Celtics win it will be despite Rivers, not because of him.

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

Ok, let's say they do lose this series, which I highly doubt and in which case, fire doc threats and threads will be put to rest for a little while.  In my opinion, I think you have to say to yourself, what a great season.  Totally disappointing postseason, but this is this team's first postseason together.  That isn't much of an excuse, but, assuming the team doesn't change drastically next year, you have to take that into account.  And, like I said, while it will be infuriating if they lose this series, you can't completely jump ship, hire a new coach, and make this team, who has built so much chemistry have to start over again with a new coach and a new system.  Now, if this does in fact happen next year, where they lose in the first round again after a loss in the first round this year, then yes, I think it is time to look in a new direction with a new coach.

But honestly, I don't even like talking about this right now, and I don't think people should be talking about this right now, because I don't want to jinx the Celtics.  Which is why I get frustrated with all the fire doc chants right now, when we still have a series to win, and a Championship to contend for.  Stop jumping ship!  Like Doc said, don't jump!  Giving up on the coach at this point is almost like giving up on the team, and that is an unfortunate and negative way to look at things at this point.  But this happens after every loss.  When we win tomorrow, all will be right with the world again.

[CeltsGM21]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  To say he is a bad coach and everyone knows it is a huge generalization.  I think that Doc is the right coach for this team right now... he is young, enthusiastic, patient, a former NBA star, etc, etc.  While he may not be the best coach in the league, I personally think that he is a good one, and that he is good for the C's.

While we may disagree, don't say that everyone knows it and class me as the only Doc supporter and believer.  That is a pretty strong statement coming from someone posting on a blog and not having any connection to the Celtics' franchise other than being a fan.  And i don't doubt that you are a fan... you don't have to prove your fanhood... but to me, it is just sad when you dismiss the value of the head coach of the best team in the league and they haven't won or lost the series yet.  Talk to me again after the game tomorrow.

While the losing in this series is frustrating, the problem is twofold:

1. Doc's terrible coaching is the "one big thing" everyone has worried about with the Celtics all year long.  Like Memphis and free throw shooting in college basketball (the Sports Guy on ESPN.com had a long article or two about critical flaws arising at the worst possible time, like relief pitching with the '86 Red Sox).  The question is not whether Doc is responsible for them losing the series, the question is how you think Doc has performed relative to, say, any coach in the playoffs in the Western Conference.  Is there any coach that was in the Western Conference playoffs with a worse playoff track record than Doc Rivers?  Even Avery Johnson made it to the finals once and Mike D'Antoni made it to the conference finals.  And if there was an open position and those three guys were up for it, would YOU hire Doc?  If so, why???

2. Even if the Celtics win this series, that doesn't prove everything was great all along.  Unless this becomes the big learning experience, etc., etc., this demonstrates a critical design flaw.  And more often than not, critical design flaws become, well, the reasons you lose rather than the thing you overcome.  It is much more frequent that a design flaw takes down a team than the design flaw gets fixed in the playoffs.  Even if the Celtics win this series, it will take a serious change for them to handle the Cavs, let alone the Pistons or Magic or whoever might await in the NBA Finals.

I want the Celtics to win.  I really do.  But Doc Rivers is not a good coach.  Everyone knows it and this playoff series has exposed it yet again.  If the Celtics win it will be despite Rivers, not because of him.

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

Ok, let's say they do lose this series, which I highly doubt and in which case, fire doc threats and threads will be put to rest for a little while.  In my opinion, I think you have to say to yourself, what a great season.  Totally disappointing postseason, but this is this team's first postseason together.  That isn't much of an excuse, but, assuming the team doesn't change drastically next year, you have to take that into account.  And, like I said, while it will be infuriating if they lose this series, you can't completely jump ship, hire a new coach, and make this team, who has built so much chemistry have to start over again with a new coach and a new system.  Now, if this does in fact happen next year, where they lose in the first round again after a loss in the first round this year, then yes, I think it is time to look in a new direction with a new coach.

But honestly, I don't even like talking about this right now, and I don't think people should be talking about this right now, because I don't want to jinx the Celtics.  Which is why I get frustrated with all the fire doc chants right now, when we still have a series to win, and a Championship to contend for.  Stop jumping ship!  Like Doc said, don't jump!  Giving up on the coach at this point is almost like giving up on the team, and that is an unfortunate and negative way to look at things at this point.  But this happens after every loss.  When we win tomorrow, all will be right with the world again.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

The real question here is that is really hard to quantify -- how do you measure the relative impact of a coach in basketball.  Like manager "win-shares" from baseball.

Fair enough on Rivers.  You would agree, though, that he has never been really successful, right?  His coaching teams have never won a playoff series and in his playing days his teams were never championship caliber.

Note: I would define real winning in a conventional wisdom sort of way -- make it to the NBA finals.  I could even be stricter and say "win a championship", but that seems a bit too limiting.

He may or may not be a good coach, but you would concede that he lacks any experience with real winning either at the coaching or playing level, right?  Again, that does not make him a bad coach, but I think it is important to acknowledge just how inexperienced he is with even getting close to a championship (that is true for most NBA players and many coaches, but that does not deny its truth in his case).

So your argument is that he is a good coach for this team despite no tradition of real winning?

p.s. Winning will not mean Doc is a better coach any more than losing will mean he is a worse coach.  My argument is that the problems the Celtics have had in this series are manifestations of Doc's general problems as a coach.  The team may be good enough to mask them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  To say he is a bad coach and everyone knows it is a huge generalization.  I think that Doc is the right coach for this team right now... he is young, enthusiastic, patient, a former NBA star, etc, etc.  While he may not be the best coach in the league, I personally think that he is a good one, and that he is good for the C's.

While we may disagree, don't say that everyone knows it and class me as the only Doc supporter and believer.  That is a pretty strong statement coming from someone posting on a blog and not having any connection to the Celtics' franchise other than being a fan.  And i don't doubt that you are a fan... you don't have to prove your fanhood... but to me, it is just sad when you dismiss the value of the head coach of the best team in the league and they haven't won or lost the series yet.  Talk to me again after the game tomorrow.

While the losing in this series is frustrating, the problem is twofold:

1. Doc's terrible coaching is the "one big thing" everyone has worried about with the Celtics all year long.  Like Memphis and free throw shooting in college basketball (the Sports Guy on ESPN.com had a long article or two about critical flaws arising at the worst possible time, like relief pitching with the '86 Red Sox).  The question is not whether Doc is responsible for them losing the series, the question is how you think Doc has performed relative to, say, any coach in the playoffs in the Western Conference.  Is there any coach that was in the Western Conference playoffs with a worse playoff track record than Doc Rivers?  Even Avery Johnson made it to the finals once and Mike D'Antoni made it to the conference finals.  And if there was an open position and those three guys were up for it, would YOU hire Doc?  If so, why???

2. Even if the Celtics win this series, that doesn't prove everything was great all along.  Unless this becomes the big learning experience, etc., etc., this demonstrates a critical design flaw.  And more often than not, critical design flaws become, well, the reasons you lose rather than the thing you overcome.  It is much more frequent that a design flaw takes down a team than the design flaw gets fixed in the playoffs.  Even if the Celtics win this series, it will take a serious change for them to handle the Cavs, let alone the Pistons or Magic or whoever might await in the NBA Finals.

I want the Celtics to win.  I really do.  But Doc Rivers is not a good coach.  Everyone knows it and this playoff series has exposed it yet again.  If the Celtics win it will be despite Rivers, not because of him.

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

Ok, let's say they do lose this series, which I highly doubt and in which case, fire doc threats and threads will be put to rest for a little while.  In my opinion, I think you have to say to yourself, what a great season.  Totally disappointing postseason, but this is this team's first postseason together.  That isn't much of an excuse, but, assuming the team doesn't change drastically next year, you have to take that into account.  And, like I said, while it will be infuriating if they lose this series, you can't completely jump ship, hire a new coach, and make this team, who has built so much chemistry have to start over again with a new coach and a new system.  Now, if this does in fact happen next year, where they lose in the first round again after a loss in the first round this year, then yes, I think it is time to look in a new direction with a new coach.

But honestly, I don't even like talking about this right now, and I don't think people should be talking about this right now, because I don't want to jinx the Celtics.  Which is why I get frustrated with all the fire doc chants right now, when we still have a series to win, and a Championship to contend for.  Stop jumping ship!  Like Doc said, don't jump!  Giving up on the coach at this point is almost like giving up on the team, and that is an unfortunate and negative way to look at things at this point.  But this happens after every loss.  When we win tomorrow, all will be right with the world again.

[vinnie]

Doc is 11-17 in his playoff coaching history.  Enough said.

[mahonedog88]

Obviously some blame goes on Doc that we're in this situation, but I just can't put ALL the blame on him.  If I had to split it up in percentages I'd say 70-30.

70% is on the players and just their lack of effort and focus and inability to play defense.

30% is on Doc and some of the in-game decisions he's made.

[CeltsGM21]

I just wonder how you can really know whether or not he is a good coach just because a young hawk team has gotten hot and look like a completely different team at home.  And how can you definitely say that he is solely to blame for the losses in this series?  They've won by 20 just about every game at home.  Both teams looked completely different in Atlanta, almost every hawk shot has gone in, almost every call seems to have gone their way, and the Celtics simply aren't playing as good defensively, nor are their shooting percentages as high in Atlanta.  Does that really fall on Doc?  Has he just decided to be a bad coach in Atlanta, because he used to play there?  And just because Doc never led a team to the finals, does that mean that he wasn't a good player?  And, certainly, you can not really believe that never winning a championship as a player equates to never winning a championship as a coach.  Look at Red.  Did he ever lead his team to a championship?  No, actually he wasn't even a good player.  Yet, he is the best coach of all time in the NBA.  So, I think your argument falters a bit with Doc's playing career.

As far as him not being successful as a coach in the NBA, I think maybe at this point your standards are too high.  He took a pretty mediocre magic team to the playoffs the year he won COY.  Besides that, he has had miserable, young teams.  I'm not sure if Red could even get those teams far into the playoffs.  So I guess we disagree on what success means and how to quantify it.  In which case, fine.  We probably won't ever agree on Doc's coaching unless, of course, he wins a championship.  Will he still not be good enough if that happens?

And yes, he does lack experience in the playoffs.  But then again, his teams have been awful.  But like I said, if they don't win this series, I give him a pass, based on inexperience in the playoffs and coaching this team, along with some other crazy twists of fate and unforeseeables.  If that happens again next year, then fine, get someone else.  It helps that he is so darn likable, but I honestly think the is a good coach for this team, and can be a great coach in the league.  Do his players help him this year?  Of course.  But how can you really say that he hasn't helped his platers this year?  The big three are playing more like a team than any of their teams have ever played.  You have to give some of the credit to Doc as a person and as a coach.

For now, can we please just wait to see how they do tomorrow?

The real question here is that is really hard to quantify -- how do you measure the relative impact of a coach in basketball.  Like manager "win-shares" from baseball.

Fair enough on Rivers.  You would agree, though, that he has never been really successful, right?  His coaching teams have never won a playoff series and in his playing days his teams were never championship caliber.

Note: I would define real winning in a conventional wisdom sort of way -- make it to the NBA finals.  I could even be stricter and say "win a championship", but that seems a bit too limiting.

He may or may not be a good coach, but you would concede that he lacks any experience with real winning either at the coaching or playing level, right?  Again, that does not make him a bad coach, but I think it is important to acknowledge just how inexperienced he is with even getting close to a championship (that is true for most NBA players and many coaches, but that does not deny its truth in his case).

So your argument is that he is a good coach for this team despite no tradition of real winning?

p.s. Winning will not mean Doc is a better coach any more than losing will mean he is a worse coach.  My argument is that the problems the Celtics have had in this series are manifestations of Doc's general problems as a coach.  The team may be good enough to mask them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  To say he is a bad coach and everyone knows it is a huge generalization.  I think that Doc is the right coach for this team right now... he is young, enthusiastic, patient, a former NBA star, etc, etc.  While he may not be the best coach in the league, I personally think that he is a good one, and that he is good for the C's.

While we may disagree, don't say that everyone knows it and class me as the only Doc supporter and believer.  That is a pretty strong statement coming from someone posting on a blog and not having any connection to the Celtics' franchise other than being a fan.  And i don't doubt that you are a fan... you don't have to prove your fanhood... but to me, it is just sad when you dismiss the value of the head coach of the best team in the league and they haven't won or lost the series yet.  Talk to me again after the game tomorrow.

While the losing in this series is frustrating, the problem is twofold:

1. Doc's terrible coaching is the "one big thing" everyone has worried about with the Celtics all year long.  Like Memphis and free throw shooting in college basketball (the Sports Guy on ESPN.com had a long article or two about critical flaws arising at the worst possible time, like relief pitching with the '86 Red Sox).  The question is not whether Doc is responsible for them losing the series, the question is how you think Doc has performed relative to, say, any coach in the playoffs in the Western Conference.  Is there any coach that was in the Western Conference playoffs with a worse playoff track record than Doc Rivers?  Even Avery Johnson made it to the finals once and Mike D'Antoni made it to the conference finals.  And if there was an open position and those three guys were up for it, would YOU hire Doc?  If so, why???

2. Even if the Celtics win this series, that doesn't prove everything was great all along.  Unless this becomes the big learning experience, etc., etc., this demonstrates a critical design flaw.  And more often than not, critical design flaws become, well, the reasons you lose rather than the thing you overcome.  It is much more frequent that a design flaw takes down a team than the design flaw gets fixed in the playoffs.  Even if the Celtics win this series, it will take a serious change for them to handle the Cavs, let alone the Pistons or Magic or whoever might await in the NBA Finals.

I want the Celtics to win.  I really do.  But Doc Rivers is not a good coach.  Everyone knows it and this playoff series has exposed it yet again.  If the Celtics win it will be despite Rivers, not because of him.

Maybe you made a fair point, but here is the way to think about it.  Under what circumstances WOULD you say Doc should be fired?  If they win 66 games next year and lose in the first round of the playoffs again? 

What do you think is the standard?

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Thanks, by the way, for my first TP!  Let's go C's!

Ok, let's say they do lose this series, which I highly doubt and in which case, fire doc threats and threads will be put to rest for a little while.  In my opinion, I think you have to say to yourself, what a great season.  Totally disappointing postseason, but this is this team's first postseason together.  That isn't much of an excuse, but, assuming the team doesn't change drastically next year, you have to take that into account.  And, like I said, while it will be infuriating if they lose this series, you can't completely jump ship, hire a new coach, and make this team, who has built so much chemistry have to start over again with a new coach and a new system.  Now, if this does in fact happen next year, where they lose in the first round again after a loss in the first round this year, then yes, I think it is time to look in a new direction with a new coach.

But honestly, I don't even like talking about this right now, and I don't think people should be talking about this right now, because I don't want to jinx the Celtics.  Which is why I get frustrated with all the fire doc chants right now, when we still have a series to win, and a Championship to contend for.  Stop jumping ship!  Like Doc said, don't jump!  Giving up on the coach at this point is almost like giving up on the team, and that is an unfortunate and negative way to look at things at this point.  But this happens after every loss.  When we win tomorrow, all will be right with the world again.

[CeltsGM21]

And of course Doc has made some mistakes, but so have his players.  Does that really mean that all the blame goes on Doc?  And do you have to be a perfect coach with no mistakes to be a good coach?  I'm not saying he is perfect, I'm saying he works and is effective, and the players definitely respond to him.