Doc Venting (merged threads)

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Haven't been a Doc basher usually, but if PJ Brown plays even five more seconds in the playoffs, Doc is crazy.
And why does Ray Allen get a free pass from Doc, the fans, the media? He's not doing much, and why can't his time be decreased?
I know, Doc loves veterans. So did John McNamara- remember how that turned out?

agree.  he got totally abused by horford at the start of the 4th.  whatever happened to baby?  he's done well defensively on horford.  doc said so himself when he justified his sudden preference of baby over powe in earlier games.

[Roy Hobbs]

It's a travesty what Doc has done to Eddie House.  That bothers me, a lot.  We definitely could have used Eddie last night, and over this entire season.  Instead, Doc has frozen out one of his top-8 players.

That's my primary rotation-related issue, and I think it's a big one.  I'm also a little peeved by the four-man bench units (I don't think Doc went to a 5-man bench line, but I bet he thought about it.)  Doc totally screwed up the rotation by not regulating it down the stretch, when our games were absolutely meaningless.

Of course, the other problem is Doc's utter failure to be able to make proper offensive and defense adjustments on the fly, or to properly use his timeouts.  These are the reasons many pointed out Doc's poor record in close games all year, with so many of Doc's supporters telling them that they were crazy.

[reggie35]

Let me focus on just one aspect of Doc's incompetence for now:
There has been a HUGE differential in FT's in this series. Arguably, it's how Atlanta has even stayed close in these games. Now maybe it's warranted or maybe it's not, BUT if Phil Jackson were coaching he'd have complained vociferously about this in the press at least once ( you don't know how much it hurts me to be bringing up Phil as an example of good coaching).

What does Doc do? Well, he throws Pierce under the bus for the technical and covers his own ass: "it's been a rule, no technicals in the 4th quarter," and then something to the effect of Crawford is right about the technical because it's a league rule that throwing a headband is an automatic technical. How about spotting the other team a 20 FT advantage? Is that a league rule? That's what Doc should be saying but he's not. Maybe he's too cheap to pay the fine.

If the C's lose tomorrow, the bright side is that Doc is gone. They will never win a championship with him as coach.

btw losing tomorrow is a real possibility. this group of Celtics detest afternoon games. they also don't deal well with pressure and this is the ultimate pressure game.

[fairweatherfan]

Let me focus on just one aspect of Doc's incompetence for now:
There has been a HUGE differential in FT's in this series. Arguably, it's how Atlanta has even stayed close in these games. Now maybe it's warranted or maybe it's not, BUT if Phil Jackson were coaching he'd have complained vociferously about this in the press at least once ( you don't know how much it hurts me to be bringing up Phil as an example of good coaching).

What does Doc do? Well, he throws Pierce under the bus for the technical and covers his own ass: "it's been a rule, no technicals in the 4th quarter," and then something to the effect of Crawford is right about the technical because it's a league rule that throwing a headband is an automatic technical. How about spotting the other team a 20 FT advantage? Is that a league rule? That's what Doc should be saying but he's not. Maybe he's too cheap to pay the fine.

If the C's lose tomorrow, the bright side is that Doc is gone. They will never win a championship with him as coach.

btw losing tomorrow is a real possibility. this group of Celtics detest afternoon games. they also don't deal well with pressure and this is the ultimate pressure game.

Well, to be fair he finally did mention the disparity, though not as firmly as I'd like.  From ESPN's Daily Dime: "Them shooting 47 free throws to us shooting 25 makes it a tough game to win," said Celtics coach Doc Rivers in his best fine-avoiding voice. "Paul being in foul trouble late in the game really hurt us."

Also from the writer of the Dime: "Where all these people came from, nobody knows -- it was an arena record 20,425 of them, to be precise -- but the newfound fanatics carried the team. They quite possibly intimidated the refs too: The Hawks enjoyed a 47-25 free throw advantage and took 41 in the final three quarters. Included in that tally was a dubious sixth foul on Paul Pierce with 4:44 left that he magnified with a technical foul, putting the Hawks up by seven points and taking Boston's best crunch-time scorer off the floor."

This free throw disparity is p---ing me off, every questionable call is going against us, and that last foul where Pierce was jockeying for rebounding position away from the ball almost made me break my bar's flatscreen.

[CeltsGM21]

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

[wiley]

Basketball is a game of momentum. Momentum comes from energy, and typically you can count on the Celtics to bring it (usually led by Garnett), but when you need a shot in the arm from elsewhere, this season it has often come from Big Baby's intensity, effort and rebounding, Eddie House's threes and his quick hands and Tony Allen's defense and driving.

So we are playing a young energetic team and not playing the three guys that can match it! Please explain this? How does Cassell and PJ Brown make any sense in this particular series?

The refs have become enamoured with this plucky bunch of kids from Atlanta and I must say, I've been impressed. But they are not in the same league given fair and balanced reffing. I don't want to see Atlanta embarressed either, but this display of double standards in the officiating is not good for the game either. Call it fair and let the teams decide their own destiny!

So all those condemning Ray Allen and KG, get a perspective. This team is playing well on both ends of the court, but the momentum shifts created by this officiating is like a punch in the gut and they don't quite know where to turn. I actually thought the refs in last game in Boston were worse than tonight!

But despite this, look at the scores. We are killing them, it just happens to be equal in games won. Give our guys a break and Doc, play your energy guys!!! Please! And refs, don't worry about making it interesting, just call the freakin' fouls when they're there and don't when they're not!

Fantastic post.  I am generally a Doc supporter.  But not playing your energy guys in this series, against an energy team, is beyond my comprehension.  I understand that Tony Allen has not played well.  That doesn't mean he's not needed.  Take a mental picture of last night's game.  Can you picture any Celtic players with their hands in the air on defense?  I can't.  The national broadcast showed two replays where Joe Johnson passed easily out of double teams because neither Ray Allen or Posey bothered to have their hands up in the air (I'm talking hands down by side, on their hips basically).  Why double-team if you're going to make it that easy?  Is it that at 40 plus minutes Ray has to pace himself?  So play him fewer minutes with his hands in the air instead of overplaying him with hands at his sides.  Both Tony Allen and Eddie House play with their hands in the air on defense.  I've been watching it all year.  That  is the hardest part of this loss....watching the Celtics trying to cool their way into the next round, and chucking what they've done all year in the process.

[wdleehi]

This team is being two faced. 


And the coach has done nothing to address it.

[Roy Hobbs]

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.

See, if it was just the Doc "haters", it would be one thing.  But posters who have defended Doc all year -- and many of them -- are coming out now and saying "what the hell is Doc doing?"

It's a disgusting, sinking feeling, to watch your worst fears (as a Celtics fan) come to fruition.  I think the worst thing we can do is sit idly by and blindly support Doc, when he's just not getting it done.

I hope I'm wrong.  I hope Doc has an epiphany, the players wake up, and we win 13 more games this year.  Until Doc proves himself, though, he's not going to get my undying support.

[cdif911]

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

[wdleehi]

I know that when you lose games like these, it may seem like the end of the world, and therefore we need to justify our feelings of hurt, frustration, disappointment, and fear by pointing fingers and figuring out who to blame.  Things like the poll on who is to blame for the loss on this site as well as other posts on people chiming in on who they blame for the loss really disappoint me, because I feel that there is no reason for it and if just makes things worse.

All the Doc haters come out in full force after every loss, as if they were hoping to lose just so they could be justified in bashing Doc.  But to me, when people blame Doc, as well as other players on the team, it is almost as if someone took a shot at my family.  I feel like I need to defend them, even if it is that annoying cousin that gets under everyone's skin.  The Celtics are my favorite team in the whole world, and it hurts when people take shots at them, especially people from the Celtic family, the fans-- the extended family of the C's.  Then again, I guess only the family is allowed to take shots at the family (an no, I am not talking about the mob-- let's leave that talk to the refs), but it still hurts when people jump on people like Doc right away.

We all know that the players love Doc, that Doc has helped shape this team into the best defensive team in the league, that Doc is one of the top coaches for executing plays after the timeout.

We all know that the Celtics have been the best team in the league all year.  Instead of trying to place blame, let's remember that the Celtics are the better team in this series, and that every game in Boston has been a blow out.

I'm just as mad and worried as everyone else, but pointing fingers helps nothing.  Let's pull together as a team, as a family, and get past this.  Let's go Celtics!

that post is worth your first TP!  I 100% agree that people are just waiting to justify their earlier opinions and throw the blame 100% at Doc, when its not fait, everyone involved is accountable, including Doc. Its almost the Sour Grapes phenomenon, its ok they didn't win, I knew Doc was bad all along type thing - get over it people, its time to support the team, from 1-12, from Danny to Doc to Wyc to even god forbid lucky =)

Stop. 

No one is abandoning the Celtics.  No one is blaming Doc 100%.  No one is yelling 'I told you so'



There are a lot of angry Celtics fan because they see their team playing so far below what they are capable of. 


They are seeing their team melt down on the road.  Melting down just like the last time they were in the playoffs. 



They are looking at a coach that has done nothing to right the ship.  A coach who is making excuses. 



People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

[cdif911]

People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

Its part of the Boston sports fans psyche - I thought winning 2 world series, 3 super bowls, etc. would change that, but it really hasn't, deep down many boston fans love to complain, and I'm not saying they want the team to fail at face, but they like having the built in excuse and the ability to say "I told you so" - how many threads have we seen where someone said something to the effect of, well at least if the c's lose doc can be fired - I'm just calling it like I see... sorry for being optimistic

[wdleehi]

People don't get this angry and passionate if they are hoping the Celtics fail just so they can be right. 

Its part of the Boston sports fans psyche - I thought winning 2 world series, 3 super bowls, etc. would change that, but it really hasn't, deep down many boston fans love to complain, and I'm not saying they want the team to fail at face, but they like having the built in excuse and the ability to say "I told you so" - how many threads have we seen where someone said something to the effect of, well at least if the c's lose doc can be fired - I'm just calling it like I see... sorry for being optimistic

If you want to defend Doc, defend Doc.


But you want to label those who question the coach as bitter fans that want to complain. 


Because the truth of it right now, no matter how much someone wants to defend Doc, there is nothing in this series anyone can point at and say Doc is doing something positive to fix the issue. 

And I hope, before this is all done, we can point at something and say Doc did his job. 

[wiley]

Regarding not playing more of the energy guys, even if to give the starters a bit of rest, I can only think that Doc is being overly psychological.  Meaning he doesn't want to let the other team dictate the Celtics' rotations, the way Dallas did in the first game against Golden State last year, trying to go small against the Warrior in game 1, leading to a lot of Avery Johnson bashing after that game 1 loss.

I hope that's not the case, because it would be a major error in thinking, and playing our energy guys would not be on par with what Avery Johnson did to start that series.

Or, did Danny and Doc decide to use this series as a tester for Cassell, and Brown, figuring we'd beat them either way with ease, and also get a sense of how much to use those two in future series?  That would also be a major mistake, if it were the case.

Don't complicate things and dwell in the realm of psychology or sentimentality!!!!  Look two feet in front of you and see what you need!!!!!

We haven't need Eddie, Tony or Big Baby at home, but we've needed them on the road, and a little burn in the home games would have helped to be ready for their road appearances!!!

I like Sam Cassell.  He adds to this Celtics team.  If we go all the way, he may hit some of the biggest shots for us.  The game 6 loss is not his fault.  But, don't be so precious with him, if Joe Johnson heats up and starts to get wherever he wants and do whatever he wants, stick Posey or Tony Allen on him immediately.  Don't wait.  Don't feel things out.  Act!!!!

By the way, I took advantage of Tommy's absence from the broadcast to watch the national channel, the first game with a worthy national broadcast team imo.  Some weird humor from Van Gundy, but also some interesting insights and a fresh changeup from Mike G and Donny, both of whom I have no problem with....I love the Gorman Heinsoln duo.....

By the

[WedmanIsMyHero]

How many people are going to make excuses for Doc?  I have previously argued two things placed the Celtics at serious risk in the playoffs:

1. Doc's rotations and poor late-game plays (I mean, how could they draw up a play to have Allen take a 3 when they were down 2 in that sitution. . ).  Also, Doc has never had real winning experience, i.e. championship experience (or even something close), as either a player or coach. 

2. The lack of winning playoff experience on the part of the Big 3.  Yes, they have gotten to conference finals before, but they have generally lost in clutch situations.  A lack of winning playoff experience is deadly in these sorts of situations.  There is a lot more pressure on veterans without winning playoff experience than younger guys, for obvious reasons.

This is bad.  The Celtics need a coach who can handle these situations and help the Big 3 achieve their goal. . .

[wiley]

The game 6 loss was also not Ray Allen's fault, as it was no 1 player's fault, but don't be so precious with Ray Allen either (not just Cassell)