Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Vermont Green]

People do understand that the majority is not done at the court on game day right?  On this team, the most important part of the job is to get these players in the right mindset to play unselfish ball WITH each other, and let their talent and superior balance of O and D overwhelm their opponents.  Basically get the guys ready to play, and then step back and allow them to play.  He is doing that in spades.  With a couple notable let downs on the road this year, the C's have basically not self destructed like prior years, and have actually recovered from poor/slow starts to pull out wins they never would have before, all with 2 additional star players and their ego's to manage.  Joe has done a great job.  Yes he is still feeling out time outs and "game management".  He is not a huge X's and O's guy that scripts out all the plays on the sideline in timeouts.  Is that him or the players that don't want to play that way?  I'm very happy the C'S have a coach that manages the talent, and doesn't need to be seen on the sidelines.  Let the players play.

I understand your philosophy, but why hire a basketball guy to be coach at all, then?  Wouldn't an expert in group dynamics, or even a clinical therapist, be best under your philosophy?  Or just an good executive from another field?

From my perspective, it's about more than just letting the players play.  When you do that, they fall into lazy habits.  Game management, Xs-and-Os, real time adjustments, preparation, and offensive / defensive philosophy are all very important aspects of coaching.

Yeah, it is not that simple and I am not sure anyone is suggesting otherwise.  The coach sets schemes and all kinds of X-O things but I think the point is that once a game starts, there is only so much you can adjust.  Setting the "mindset" or getting the buy in happens well before the game.  A good coach has to find the sweet spot.  You can't over-coach during the game but you can't just sit there either.

I would say that Mazzulla is trying to be a "players' coach", which is a cliché and probably means something different to everyone.  I think he believes in the talent and wants to let them play, but there are still underlying schemes and mindsets that the coach must instill.  Some non-basketball CEO could not instill the schemes and mindsets without a deep understanding of basketball.

Any one of us could sit on the bench and coach one game and the Celtics would probably still win.  It is like when someone is a guest conductor for the Boston Pops.  You can just stand there and wave your arms and the musicians know what to do anyway.

[Surferdad]

People do understand that the majority is not done at the court on game day right?  On this team, the most important part of the job is to get these players in the right mindset to play unselfish ball WITH each other, and let their talent and superior balance of O and D overwhelm their opponents.  Basically get the guys ready to play, and then step back and allow them to play.  He is doing that in spades.  With a couple notable let downs on the road this year, the C's have basically not self destructed like prior years, and have actually recovered from poor/slow starts to pull out wins they never would have before, all with 2 additional star players and their ego's to manage.  Joe has done a great job.  Yes he is still feeling out time outs and "game management".  He is not a huge X's and O's guy that scripts out all the plays on the sideline in timeouts.  Is that him or the players that don't want to play that way?  I'm very happy the C'S have a coach that manages the talent, and doesn't need to be seen on the sidelines.  Let the players play.

I understand your philosophy, but why hire a basketball guy to be coach at all, then?  Wouldn't an expert in group dynamics, or even a clinical therapist, be best under your philosophy?  Or just an good executive from another field?

From my perspective, it's about more than just letting the players play.  When you do that, they fall into lazy habits.  Game management, Xs-and-Os, real time adjustments, preparation, and offensive / defensive philosophy are all very important aspects of coaching.

Yeah, it is not that simple and I am not sure anyone is suggesting otherwise.  The coach sets schemes and all kinds of X-O things but I think the point is that once a game starts, there is only so much you can adjust.  Setting the "mindset" or getting the buy in happens well before the game.  A good coach has to find the sweet spot.  You can't over-coach during the game but you can't just sit there either.

I would say that Mazzulla is trying to be a "players' coach", which is a cliché and probably means something different to everyone.  I think he believes in the talent and wants to let them play, but there are still underlying schemes and mindsets that the coach must instill.  Some non-basketball CEO could not instill the schemes and mindsets without a deep understanding of basketball.

Any one of us could sit on the bench and coach one game and the Celtics would probably still win.  It is like when someone is a guest conductor for the Boston Pops.  You can just stand there and wave your arms and the musicians know what to do anyway.

Good point. To exend it from one game to a whole season I would point to KC Jones' championship with the Bird/McCale/Parish trio. I liked KC, but he was also more a 'players coach' than x's and o's guy.

[green_bballers13]

I think Phil Jackson is one of the most overrated coaches ever. He gets credit for "managing personalities". He coached MJ and Kobe. Joe gets to coach a talented NBA team, and I think he is doing a decent job by looking at the results.

I think Joe knows a lot more about basketball than his online critics.

[Big333223]

I think Phil Jackson is one of the most overrated coaches ever. He gets credit for "managing personalities". He coached MJ and Kobe. Joe gets to coach a talented NBA team, and I think he is doing a decent job by looking at the results.

I think Joe knows a lot more about basketball than his online critics.

We wind up rating coaches highly when they coach great players. The NBA coaching Mt. Rushmore for most people is probably Red, Pat Riley, Phil Jackson & Greg Popovich. Red never won anything without Bill Russell, Pop never won anything without Duncan, Phil Jackson went from coaching Jordan & Pippen to coaching Shaq & Kobe and then Kobe/Gasol/Odom, and then there's Riley who won most of his championships with Magic & Kareem only to win one more with Shaq & Wade in one of the most questionable Finals in modern NBA history.

The bottom line, for me, is that we as fans don't really know how to judge coaches. But for as long as the team is winning 70% or its games, calling for someone to be fired doesn't make much sense.

[green_bballers13]

94 pages and counting of emotional drivel. I haven't read one post here that provides value-added content about his need to be fired. I see simplistic stuff like "Bad at X's and O's, too many threes, yada, yada, yada".

Can anyone add insight into the Fire Joe take that can inform or provide something new to the reader?

[Phantom255x]

94 pages and counting of emotional drivel. I haven't read one post here that provides value-added content about his need to be fired. I see simplistic stuff like "Bad at X's and O's, too many threes, yada, yada, yada".

Can anyone add insight into the Fire Joe take that can inform or provide something new to the reader?

My issue is, I have no clue what people want. There was literally an "Ime's got to go" thread and other "fire Stevens" threads over the years. Newsflash, there isn't a single perfect coach out there. Not even Popovich or Phil Jackson are/were perfect.

I could understand thinking he could get fired after they fell behind 3-0 in the ECF last season and it was clear the team didn't seem to play behind him, but then again, they won 3 straight after that and didn't immediately quit. Plus I do sympathize with Joe a little that he was kinda put into a tough spot to begin with taking over the team just a month before the 2023 season. He's still learning and has better assistants around him this year to help

Idk how long Mazzulla is here, but I will say, a lot of the "choking" and "letdowns" have happened with the same core of players over the past 6+ years now. At some point I do think you need to start looking at the players a little for underperforming too. Doesn't matter how many timeouts you take or what your philosophies may be, it's also up to the players to actually execute too. Tatum wilted in the 2022 Finals. Jaylen was meh most of last seasons' postseason especially the Heat series. Even CBS decided to get rid of Smart and Timelord in trades and try something differently

[Yuckabuck33]

People do understand that the majority is not done at the court on game day right?  On this team, the most important part of the job is to get these players in the right mindset to play unselfish ball WITH each other, and let their talent and superior balance of O and D overwhelm their opponents.  Basically get the guys ready to play, and then step back and allow them to play.  He is doing that in spades.  With a couple notable let downs on the road this year, the C's have basically not self destructed like prior years, and have actually recovered from poor/slow starts to pull out wins they never would have before, all with 2 additional star players and their ego's to manage.  Joe has done a great job.  Yes he is still feeling out time outs and "game management".  He is not a huge X's and O's guy that scripts out all the plays on the sideline in timeouts.  Is that him or the players that don't want to play that way?  I'm very happy the C'S have a coach that manages the talent, and doesn't need to be seen on the sidelines.  Let the players play.

I understand your philosophy, but why hire a basketball guy to be coach at all, then?  Wouldn't an expert in group dynamics, or even a clinical therapist, be best under your philosophy?  Or just an good executive from another field?

As a Clinical Therapist in Ohio, I would love to be named the next head coach for the Boston Celtics. I'd finally get to see a game in person!

[ozgod]

94 pages and counting of emotional drivel. I haven't read one post here that provides value-added content about his need to be fired. I see simplistic stuff like "Bad at X's and O's, too many threes, yada, yada, yada".

Can anyone add insight into the Fire Joe take that can inform or provide something new to the reader?

My issue is, I have no clue what people want. There was literally an "Ime's got to go" thread and other "fire Stevens" threads over the years. Newsflash, there isn't a single perfect coach out there. Not even Popovich or Phil Jackson are/were perfect.

I could understand thinking he could get fired after they fell behind 3-0 in the ECF last season and it was clear the team didn't seem to play behind him, but then again, they won 3 straight after that and didn't immediately quit. Plus I do sympathize with Joe a little that he was kinda put into a tough spot to begin with taking over the team just a month before the 2023 season. He's still learning and has better assistants around him this year to help

Idk how long Mazzulla is here, but I will say, a lot of the "choking" and "letdowns" have happened with the same core of players over the past 6+ years now. At some point I do think you need to start looking at the players a little for underperforming too. Doesn't matter how many timeouts you take or what your philosophies may be, it's also up to the players to actually execute too. Tatum wilted in the 2022 Finals. Jaylen was meh most of last seasons' postseason especially the Heat series. Even CBS decided to get rid of Smart and Timelord in trades and try something differently

I feel like Joe's character has something to do with it...he's just not a very likeable person, and he says sarcastic things in press conferences like "we need to shoot more 3s" after they shot 50 and missed 40 of them, or when he says things like teams that win the third quarter have a 67.9% chance to win the game...I think stuff like that gets people annoyed. Not calling timeouts, when traditional coaches do...these are all the things he gets criticized for in the in game threads. He just doesn't have a lot of charisma and he clearly didn't have the chance to do a PR course before he took the job last season. Then you add the fact that he espouses a game philosophy that a lot of fans generally don't like, which is the focus on 3 point shooting...especially a lot of fans that grew up on the "offense wins games...defense wins championships" mantra, his approach seems kind of flukey.

I think it just comes with the territory...you go to every Reddit and there are threads calling for coaches to be fired. Even the Spurs Reddit had people saying Pop's time was up, much like Belichick here. Because it's hard to see exactly what value they add, since they aren't playing, when a team plays well the players get the credit, when they don't the coach gets the blame. And I feel that's really one of their main functions from a public point of view, to protect the players when the team isn't going well by taking the slings and arrows.

At the end of the day though, his team is winning, and that's really what counts. We don't know if it will keep winning during the playoffs, which is what a lot of people pounded him for last season, but lets see if he's learned this year 

[jpotter33]

Another addition to the "Fire Joe" scrapbook. No competent coach lets that team just iso and play out that last possession given Tatum being injured and how the game was overall going, let alone the long history of our futility in those situations. Didn't even try to go at the mismatch for Curry, which would be the whole idea of not taking a timeout anyways.

Then again, he may be perfectly suited for this team, as he also seems to just put his hands in his pockets and fold down the stretch. Perfect pairing with the combination of decision paralysis and lack of heart down the stretch. 

[SparzWizard]

Can't believe he let this happen. Blown 4th quarter lead. Need to stop with the "learn on your own on the court" and do your job and coach this team.

Better yet, fire yourself and get someone else to coach. Ugh

[SparzWizard]

Another addition to the "Fire Joe" scrapbook. No competent coach lets that team just iso and play out that last possession given Tatum being injured and how the game was overall going, let alone the long history of our futility in those situations. Didn't even try to go at the mismatch for Curry, which would be the whole idea of not taking a timeout anyways.

Then again, he may be perfectly suited for this team, as he also seems to just put his hands in his pockets and fold down the stretch. Perfect pairing with the combination of decision paralysis and lack of heart down the stretch. 

You got Curry in foul trouble. No Draymond Green. And yet still find a way to swuander this game away. This was the only winnable game on this trip.

Kings are gonna feast on this fatigued squad. Clippers Big 4 are gonna feast on this squad. LeBron Lakers are licking their chops for revenge from last year. 0-4 is coming.

[Goldstar88]

Can’t believe Joe let them miss those layups. Completely unacceptable. Better practice those tomorrow before the game. Certainly don’t want to see a repeat!

[ozgod]

Can’t believe Joe let them miss those layups. Completely unacceptable. Better practice those tomorrow before the game. Certainly don’t want to see a repeat!

21 missed layups, one lash on Joe's buttocks for each one

[MattyIce]

Another addition to the "Fire Joe" scrapbook. No competent coach lets that team just iso and play out that last possession given Tatum being injured and how the game was overall going, let alone the long history of our futility in those situations. Didn't even try to go at the mismatch for Curry, which would be the whole idea of not taking a timeout anyways.

Then again, he may be perfectly suited for this team, as he also seems to just put his hands in his pockets and fold down the stretch. Perfect pairing with the combination of decision paralysis and lack of heart down the stretch. 

well said, TP

[trickybilly]

Trade Tatum to be honest.

High usage, poor shooter..