Report: Celtics still looking to utilize trade exception?

[Moranis]

My fear is that they are woefully thin up front and it is going to cost them significantly. The moment Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup, people are going to complain and see how badly the TPE was mismanaged, much like how their lack of a valid bench cost them dearly last year in the end.

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

not if they used the full TPE and got some real talent on the team.

Oh?  Who is the available $17 million player that is going to make up for the loss of Timelord, along with Horford's ineffectiveness?

Full list of salaries here:

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

You said they were both ineffective, not that they weren't on the team.  Obviously you can't replace 40 million in salary with 17 million, but you can absolutely find useful players that can help overcome some ineffectiveness and play match-ups better.  I know he just got traded, but Christian Wood, as an example, would have been a great addition to the rotation.  Obviously both Markkanen and Carter mentioned by Celtics4ever would help (as would Jonas, though obviously I don't think any of these 3 are easily gettable).  Anunoby's name had been mentioned in trades and who could have fit into the TPE before the season turned over.  McDermott is likely available.  Kuzma strikes me as a guy that could be had, same with KO. 

And that is just big men, obviously there are plenty of wings that are available as well, which if you do that well, would then allow someone like White to be available to be traded. 

The idea that there aren't players available that would fit into the TPE and help the team, just isn't borne in reality.  There are a lot of guys out there that could help, especially during the long grind of the season.  They'd be expensive, but if you want to claim your are a contender, then you need to act like it and not let huge assets just disappear for nothing.

Moving goal posts?

The hypothetical was that "Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup". 

As I suggested, if that happens, we're screwed regardless of what trades we make.

Nobody is arguing that there are no trade targets who could "help the team".  That's just a straw man.

You said

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

That is what I commented on.  Ineffective is not out?  It seems you once again misquoted someone and then get upset when you get called on it.

And it seems like you agree that there are players that would help the team and thus may not make us "screwed" if both Horford and Timelord are ineffective.

I posted elsewhere I'd be ok with with Crowder and Craig from Phoenix.  Sign Dwight or Whiteside, and then you have a pretty solid 3 deep squad.

[Roy H.]

My fear is that they are woefully thin up front and it is going to cost them significantly. The moment Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup, people are going to complain and see how badly the TPE was mismanaged, much like how their lack of a valid bench cost them dearly last year in the end.

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

not if they used the full TPE and got some real talent on the team.

Oh?  Who is the available $17 million player that is going to make up for the loss of Timelord, along with Horford's ineffectiveness?

Full list of salaries here:

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

You said they were both ineffective, not that they weren't on the team.  Obviously you can't replace 40 million in salary with 17 million, but you can absolutely find useful players that can help overcome some ineffectiveness and play match-ups better.  I know he just got traded, but Christian Wood, as an example, would have been a great addition to the rotation.  Obviously both Markkanen and Carter mentioned by Celtics4ever would help (as would Jonas, though obviously I don't think any of these 3 are easily gettable).  Anunoby's name had been mentioned in trades and who could have fit into the TPE before the season turned over.  McDermott is likely available.  Kuzma strikes me as a guy that could be had, same with KO. 

And that is just big men, obviously there are plenty of wings that are available as well, which if you do that well, would then allow someone like White to be available to be traded. 

The idea that there aren't players available that would fit into the TPE and help the team, just isn't borne in reality.  There are a lot of guys out there that could help, especially during the long grind of the season.  They'd be expensive, but if you want to claim your are a contender, then you need to act like it and not let huge assets just disappear for nothing.

Moving goal posts?

The hypothetical was that "Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup". 

As I suggested, if that happens, we're screwed regardless of what trades we make.

Nobody is arguing that there are no trade targets who could "help the team".  That's just a straw man.

You said

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

That is what I commented on.  Ineffective is not out?  It seems you once again misquoted someone and then get upset when you get called on it.

And it seems like you agree that there are players that would help the team and thus may not make us "screwed" if both Horford and Timelord are ineffective.

I posted elsewhere I'd be ok with with Crowder and Craig from Phoenix.  Sign Dwight or Whiteside, and then you have a pretty solid 3 deep squad.

The context is right there.  If you interject yourself in somebody's conversation, please try to keep up.  The context was Timelord being out, Horford breaking down, and Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup.

Having Crowder, Craig and D12 wouldn't solve that particular problem.  As I said, we'd be screwed.  And, worse, ownership would have spent $100 million or so in tax on a non-contender, making them much more likely to reverse course.

[RJ87]

Ugh. Imagine Jae Crowder as a 3rd stringer. He'd just pout on the bench all the time. Idk how a player with such an up and down attitude has become immortalized by this fanbase.

[Vermont Green]

In terms of big depth, if Horford and RWill miss some regular season games due to minutes management (skip back to backs for example) or for general rest to address nagging injuries, I don't think that is an issue.  We have enough big depth and versatility to overcome this.  This scenario does not warrant making a big trade at this point.

If age finally catches up with Horford and he really regresses or if RWill has more of a long term injury, we are going to have to do something more drastic to address this.  Probably a trade at the deadline where we send out something of value (maybe White) and get back a legit big that can replace Horford or RWill.  In the meantime, signing an insurance vet big is fine.  I don't think it is unrealistic to proceed based on the assumption that Horford and RWill can be managed.

Now if we can swing a trade and get Bam Adebayo (without giving up Brown), great.  Or some other legit young big, great.  That is a nice long term big.  Hard to see Miami or Boston wanting to deal with the other but who knows.  I can't think of a better big to pair with Tatum and Brown, well short of the MVP candidates.  Miami likely wants to PAIR Durant with Butler and Bam, not trade Bam.

[Moranis]

My fear is that they are woefully thin up front and it is going to cost them significantly. The moment Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup, people are going to complain and see how badly the TPE was mismanaged, much like how their lack of a valid bench cost them dearly last year in the end.

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

not if they used the full TPE and got some real talent on the team.

Oh?  Who is the available $17 million player that is going to make up for the loss of Timelord, along with Horford's ineffectiveness?

Full list of salaries here:

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

You said they were both ineffective, not that they weren't on the team.  Obviously you can't replace 40 million in salary with 17 million, but you can absolutely find useful players that can help overcome some ineffectiveness and play match-ups better.  I know he just got traded, but Christian Wood, as an example, would have been a great addition to the rotation.  Obviously both Markkanen and Carter mentioned by Celtics4ever would help (as would Jonas, though obviously I don't think any of these 3 are easily gettable).  Anunoby's name had been mentioned in trades and who could have fit into the TPE before the season turned over.  McDermott is likely available.  Kuzma strikes me as a guy that could be had, same with KO. 

And that is just big men, obviously there are plenty of wings that are available as well, which if you do that well, would then allow someone like White to be available to be traded. 

The idea that there aren't players available that would fit into the TPE and help the team, just isn't borne in reality.  There are a lot of guys out there that could help, especially during the long grind of the season.  They'd be expensive, but if you want to claim your are a contender, then you need to act like it and not let huge assets just disappear for nothing.

Moving goal posts?

The hypothetical was that "Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup". 

As I suggested, if that happens, we're screwed regardless of what trades we make.

Nobody is arguing that there are no trade targets who could "help the team".  That's just a straw man.

You said

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

That is what I commented on.  Ineffective is not out?  It seems you once again misquoted someone and then get upset when you get called on it.

And it seems like you agree that there are players that would help the team and thus may not make us "screwed" if both Horford and Timelord are ineffective.

I posted elsewhere I'd be ok with with Crowder and Craig from Phoenix.  Sign Dwight or Whiteside, and then you have a pretty solid 3 deep squad.

The context is right there.  If you interject yourself in somebody's conversation, please try to keep up.  The context was Timelord being out, Horford breaking down, and Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup.

Having Crowder, Craig and D12 wouldn't solve that particular problem.  As I said, we'd be screwed.  And, worse, ownership would have spent $100 million or so in tax on a non-contender, making them much more likely to reverse course.

I replied directly to your quote.  If you don't say what you mean, don't blame me for responding to your actual direct quote. 

And Kornet and Grant wouldn't start if you used the TPE effectively.  That was the whole point I was making.  If you waste an asset because you get cheap and that cheapness is why Boston loses in the 2nd round because it plays Milwaukee on the road, then you deserve it.  Of course if Horford is just ineffective and not out, at least one of those guys wouldn't start anyway because an ineffective Horford is still better than either of those 2 guys.

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy. 

[Roy H.]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

[nickagneta]

My fear is that they are woefully thin up front and it is going to cost them significantly. The moment Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup, people are going to complain and see how badly the TPE was mismanaged, much like how their lack of a valid bench cost them dearly last year in the end.

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

The certainty with which some are convinced that Timelord will be out for half the year or more and that Al's game will fall off a cliff is astounding to me and starting to take on "Max Kellerman thinking Tom Brady's game would fall off a cliff" type of negative take.

[jambr380]

Ugh. Imagine Jae Crowder as a 3rd stringer. He'd just pout on the bench all the time. Idk how a player with such an up and down attitude has become immortalized by this fanbase.

I'm not saying he outright meant to do it, but he took away a potential Cs 'dynasty' into the 2017-18 season by causing the Hayward injury and caused a domino effect of bad contracts and upset players. The fact that we've made it to at least the ECF 3 times since then is a testament to how well Ainge collected assets and built the roster.

I liked Crowder while he was here, but the dude can suck it.

[Moranis]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

The Bucks and Heat go that deep. 

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Allen, Lopez, Connaughton, Portis, Ibaka, Matthews, Ingles, Hill, Carter, Nwora - Beauchamp

Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro, Oladipo, Lowry, Robinson, Morris, Martin, Strus, Vincent, Dedmon - Jovic

Heck even the Sixers have a bunch real depth this year

Sixers - Embiid, Harris, Harden, Thybulle, Maxey, Melton, Niang, Tucker, Milton, Korkmaz, Joe

Now obviously some of those guys are certainly equivalent to the end of Boston's bench and Boston has some better players in the 4-8 range than many of those teams, but they all have more overall depth than the C's. 

Heck even a team with less talent at the top, like say the Hawks, has a ton of depth.

Hawks - Young, Murray, Bogdanovic, Collins, Capela, Dieng, Okongwu, Hunter, Holiday, Williams, Harkless, Kaminsky

or the Nuggets

Nuggets - Jokic, MPJ, Gordon, KCP, Murray, Brown, Rivers, Hyland, Campazzo, Green, Smith


Those teams just don't have the expense on players 4-8 in the roster like Boston.  That is where Boston's salary has gotten out of hand.  7 players over 10 million and 4th most expensive guy at over 22 million is a lot of salary in the middle depths and more than makes up for the cheaper than many teams top 2 salaries that are Tatum and Brown.  Turning someone like White into 2 or 3 cheaper players, would fill out the roster a lot better. 

[DefenseWinsChamps]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

The Bucks and Heat go that deep. 

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Allen, Lopez, Connaughton, Portis, Ibaka, Matthews, Ingles, Hill, Carter, Nwora - Beauchamp

Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro, Oladipo, Lowry, Robinson, Morris, Martin, Strus, Vincent, Dedmon - Jovic

Heck even the Sixers have a bunch real depth this year

Sixers - Embiid, Harris, Harden, Thybulle, Maxey, Melton, Niang, Tucker, Milton, Korkmaz, Joe

Now obviously some of those guys are certainly equivalent to the end of Boston's bench and Boston has some better players in the 4-8 range than many of those teams, but they all have more overall depth than the C's. 

Heck even a team with less talent at the top, like say the Hawks, has a ton of depth.

Hawks - Young, Murray, Bogdanovic, Collins, Capela, Dieng, Okongwu, Hunter, Holiday, Williams, Harkless, Kaminsky

or the Nuggets

Nuggets - Jokic, MPJ, Gordon, KCP, Murray, Brown, Rivers, Hyland, Campazzo, Green, Smith


Those teams just don't have the expense on players 4-8 in the roster like Boston.  That is where Boston's salary has gotten out of hand.  7 players over 10 million and 4th most expensive guy at over 22 million is a lot of salary in the middle depths and more than makes up for the cheaper than many teams top 2 salaries that are Tatum and Brown.  Turning someone like White into 2 or 3 cheaper players, would fill out the roster a lot better.

We significantly differ on the comparable values of the the 8-10 rotation players from many of the teams you listed.

We are now a solid 9 deep, not including Pritchard, who had moments in the playoffs for us, and Hauser, who the front office have said they are hopeful he can be in the rotation this year.

We are right there with the deepest teams in the league already.

That doesn't mean that I don't want the Cs to use the trade exception. I do, but the attitude that we aren't keeping up with the big boys is just incorrect.

[nickagneta]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

The Bucks and Heat go that deep. 

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Allen, Lopez, Connaughton, Portis, Ibaka, Matthews, Ingles, Hill, Carter, Nwora - Beauchamp

Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro, Oladipo, Lowry, Robinson, Morris, Martin, Strus, Vincent, Dedmon - Jovic

Heck even the Sixers have a bunch real depth this year

Sixers - Embiid, Harris, Harden, Thybulle, Maxey, Melton, Niang, Tucker, Milton, Korkmaz, Joe

Now obviously some of those guys are certainly equivalent to the end of Boston's bench and Boston has some better players in the 4-8 range than many of those teams, but they all have more overall depth than the C's. 

Heck even a team with less talent at the top, like say the Hawks, has a ton of depth.

Hawks - Young, Murray, Bogdanovic, Collins, Capela, Dieng, Okongwu, Hunter, Holiday, Williams, Harkless, Kaminsky

or the Nuggets

Nuggets - Jokic, MPJ, Gordon, KCP, Murray, Brown, Rivers, Hyland, Campazzo, Green, Smith


Those teams just don't have the expense on players 4-8 in the roster like Boston.  That is where Boston's salary has gotten out of hand.  7 players over 10 million and 4th most expensive guy at over 22 million is a lot of salary in the middle depths and more than makes up for the cheaper than many teams top 2 salaries that are Tatum and Brown.  Turning someone like White into 2 or 3 cheaper players, would fill out the roster a lot better.

After having read your definition of depth last year in the who is deeper thread, East or West, I hope you will understand if a take this opinion with a huge grain of salt.

[RJ87]

Ugh. Imagine Jae Crowder as a 3rd stringer. He'd just pout on the bench all the time. Idk how a player with such an up and down attitude has become immortalized by this fanbase.

I'm not saying he outright meant to do it, but he took away a potential Cs 'dynasty' into the 2017-18 season by causing the Hayward injury and caused a domino effect of bad contracts and upset players. The fact that we've made it to at least the ECF 3 times since then is a testament to how well Ainge collected assets and built the roster.

I liked Crowder while he was here, but the dude can suck it.

I wasn't a big fan while he was here, but I also wasn't a huge fan of IT. I don't think he was a great leader, but we were winning when no one expected us to so a lot of things were tolerated by fans then that wouldn't be now. If Tatum made comments to the media about backing up the brinks truck, Celticsstrong would burst into flames.

[celticsclay]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

The Bucks and Heat go that deep. 

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Allen, Lopez, Connaughton, Portis, Ibaka, Matthews, Ingles, Hill, Carter, Nwora - Beauchamp

Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro, Oladipo, Lowry, Robinson, Morris, Martin, Strus, Vincent, Dedmon - Jovic

Heck even the Sixers have a bunch real depth this year

Sixers - Embiid, Harris, Harden, Thybulle, Maxey, Melton, Niang, Tucker, Milton, Korkmaz, Joe

Now obviously some of those guys are certainly equivalent to the end of Boston's bench and Boston has some better players in the 4-8 range than many of those teams, but they all have more overall depth than the C's. 

Heck even a team with less talent at the top, like say the Hawks, has a ton of depth.

Hawks - Young, Murray, Bogdanovic, Collins, Capela, Dieng, Okongwu, Hunter, Holiday, Williams, Harkless, Kaminsky

or the Nuggets

Nuggets - Jokic, MPJ, Gordon, KCP, Murray, Brown, Rivers, Hyland, Campazzo, Green, Smith


Those teams just don't have the expense on players 4-8 in the roster like Boston.  That is where Boston's salary has gotten out of hand.  7 players over 10 million and 4th most expensive guy at over 22 million is a lot of salary in the middle depths and more than makes up for the cheaper than many teams top 2 salaries that are Tatum and Brown.  Turning someone like White into 2 or 3 cheaper players, would fill out the roster a lot better.

After having read your definition of depth last year in the who is deeper thread, East or West, I hope you will understand if a take this opinion with a huge grain of salt.

Nick you had to know this one would make me chuckle. Tommy point.

[Vermont Green]

My fear is that they are woefully thin up front and it is going to cost them significantly. The moment Timelord missed half the season and Horford finally breaks down putting Kornet and Grant in the starting lineup, people are going to complain and see how badly the TPE was mismanaged, much like how their lack of a valid bench cost them dearly last year in the end.

Well, if Timelord and Horford are both ineffective, we’re screwed anyway, right?

The certainty with which some are convinced that Timelord will be out for half the year or more and that Al's game will fall off a cliff is astounding to me and starting to take on "Max Kellerman thinking Tom Brady's game would fall off a cliff" type of negative take.

I think this is the key point.  If you feel that Horford is going to regress to the point where we are better off playing Kornet or that RWill can't be counted on at all due to durability concerns, then yes, the team should be doing something big to address this now.  But I don't look at it this way and I don't think the team does.

A more realistic scenario is that Horford and RWill are going to need their minutes managed to some degree through the season.  I feel we have plenty of big depth to deal with that.  And if we can add a reasonably useful vet big as additional insurance, great.

But even if you believe this worst case scenario is likely (Horford severe regression and RWill injured), even in that case, this isn't a problem we have to solve now.  First, it may not even be a problem but more importantly, we have all the way to the trade deadline to address it.

There are not any great options right now to bring in a big who could "replace" Horford or RWill.  No one is going to just give us that caliber of PF or C for picks or whatever so that we can use the Fournier TPE.  You would have to be ready to trade Smart or White or something else of value to bring back that type of player.  And there is absolutely no reason to do that now.  Who knows, maybe RWill stays healthy and it is Smart that suffers an injury.  If we trade White and then Smart gets hurt, we are worse off (for example).

If by chance, some amazing player becomes available, great, let's be ready to pounce.  That just does not seem all that likely.

[Celtics2021]

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy.

Outside of the Warriors, Clippers (zero championships) and Nets (zero championships), what big boys are spending more than us?  And what team goes 10 - 12 deep with starting caliber players?

The Bucks and Heat go that deep. 

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Allen, Lopez, Connaughton, Portis, Ibaka, Matthews, Ingles, Hill, Carter, Nwora - Beauchamp

Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro, Oladipo, Lowry, Robinson, Morris, Martin, Strus, Vincent, Dedmon - Jovic

Heck even the Sixers have a bunch real depth this year

Sixers - Embiid, Harris, Harden, Thybulle, Maxey, Melton, Niang, Tucker, Milton, Korkmaz, Joe

Now obviously some of those guys are certainly equivalent to the end of Boston's bench and Boston has some better players in the 4-8 range than many of those teams, but they all have more overall depth than the C's. 

Heck even a team with less talent at the top, like say the Hawks, has a ton of depth.

Hawks - Young, Murray, Bogdanovic, Collins, Capela, Dieng, Okongwu, Hunter, Holiday, Williams, Harkless, Kaminsky

or the Nuggets

Nuggets - Jokic, MPJ, Gordon, KCP, Murray, Brown, Rivers, Hyland, Campazzo, Green, Smith


Those teams just don't have the expense on players 4-8 in the roster like Boston.  That is where Boston's salary has gotten out of hand.  7 players over 10 million and 4th most expensive guy at over 22 million is a lot of salary in the middle depths and more than makes up for the cheaper than many teams top 2 salaries that are Tatum and Brown.  Turning someone like White into 2 or 3 cheaper players, would fill out the roster a lot better.

We significantly differ on the comparable values of the the 8-10 rotation players from many of the teams you listed.

We are now a solid 9 deep, not including Pritchard, who had moments in the playoffs for us, and Hauser, who the front office have said they are hopeful he can be in the rotation this year.

We are right there with the deepest teams in the league already.

That doesn't mean that I don't want the Cs to use the trade exception. I do, but the attitude that we aren't keeping up with the big boys is just incorrect.

Seriously.  A good chunk of the players listed would be outside our top 10, and well outside it.  Jordan Nwora? Beauchamp??  Jevon Carter?  Heck, 35 year-old Joe Ingles coming off the worst year of his career AND a torn ACL that won’t have him ready until January at best?

Dedmon?  Jovic?  Korkmaz?  Kaminsky?? 

And then there are guys like Dieng, who are in other teams, and Campazzo, who’s so awesome that he might be headed back to Europe.

I could go on, but man, that’s a new level we’ve reached in that post.