Author Topic: Timelord (Woj: To play limited minutes in Game 3)  (Read 50276 times)

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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #135 on: March 28, 2022, 06:54:19 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #136 on: March 28, 2022, 06:57:07 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Tough break for the Celtics but I don't think that changes that we are still a title contender.  Not as much as before the injury, RWill is a good player, and impactful player, but we do have others (Theis and GWill) who will need to step up.

Incidentally, I was curious to see the 2-man results for various combinations of our bigs, essentially with Theis in for RWill: (these are normalized per 100 possessions):

Horford/RWill       +13.6     51 games
Horford/Theis       +33.0       7 games

GWill/RWill            +4.7     56 games
Theis/GWill         +13.2      13 games

The sample size with Theis is admittedly small but Theis is better than both Horford and GWill than RWill was with either.  Again, small sample size and context but if you look only at the last 10 games:

Horford/RWill       +21.5
Horford/Theis       +32.9

GWill/RWill          +20.6
Theis/GWill         +14.9

Theis still pairs roughly as well with GWill and Horford as RWill does.  Theis should also be getting better still, at least a little.  Incidentally, Horford and GWill over the last 10 games are only +5.2, the worst combination.

We can overcome this.  According to these numbers, Horford and Theis should play the most, Theis and GWill the next most, and Horford and GWill the least.
Theis' ability to avoid foul trouble will probably flip this. Plus Theis needs to play when Al doesn't.

I don't think that is true.  Horford and Theis have played 44 total minutes in 7 games for a plus/minus of +29.  They are actually very good together.  That is why it is so critical that Theis stays out of foul trouble.  All combinations of Horford, Theis, and GWill are going to need to be used.  It will be like before we got Theis back but it will be Theis instead of RWill.
I am not worried about them playing together. I am worried when neither is on the court.
I don't think, even in the playoffs, Al is good for more than 32-34 mpg, Best case Grant plays the same. In a perfect world that means Theis needs to play needs to play 30 mpg. I just don't see this. Otherwise its Tatum at the 4 and more minutes for White/Pritchard.

If Kornet can play at all, "cheat" 3-5 minutes/half around the quarter break maybe I'll feel better. But if those 6-10 mpg are with Grant playing smallball 5, I'm worried.

Theis will be in foul trouble early if the target is 30+ minutes. I agree that if Kornet can sneak in a few minutes per half, that would be great.   Lots of variables of course, including matchups and whether C's can create comfortable leads as they've been doing lately.  I agree with those who say that Rob isn't the most essential starter, but I wouldn't minimize the impact he's had on games lately.  He influences what opposing teams are doing on offense, and his alertness in the paint for "oops" and put-backs will be missed.

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #137 on: March 28, 2022, 10:16:53 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If it's surgery and a 2nd round return is best case, sign Ilyasova!
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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #138 on: March 28, 2022, 10:44:46 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

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when this conversation shifts to surgery, does anyone know what type?

i had arthroscopic micro fracture surgery for my meniscus seven years ago (can’t remember if i had a tear or had just worn it down from too much running), and i was back to full time running in six weeks with no issues.

is this an option for rob or is “surgery” referencing something more invasive?

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #139 on: March 29, 2022, 02:22:17 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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Williams should get the surgery that’s best for him long-term, regardless of recovery time.

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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2022, 02:59:02 AM »

Kiorrik

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when this conversation shifts to surgery, does anyone know what type?

i had arthroscopic micro fracture surgery for my meniscus seven years ago (can’t remember if i had a tear or had just worn it down from too much running), and i was back to full time running in six weeks with no issues.

is this an option for rob or is “surgery” referencing something more invasive?

The way I read it was that they're having some form of exploratory surgery first?

Regardless, last I heard (hours ago) Rob and the Celtics weren't sure which surgery to go for yet either.

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2022, 03:29:01 AM »

Offline ozgod

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https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1508493460826988554

Official diagnosis is “torn lateral meniscus in his left knee”, with official timetable for recovery expected later this week. That’s the better of the meniscus injuries, correct? Hopefully that means a shorter recovery time/no surgery.

Yeah that's promising. It depends on the size/extent of the tear, but the lateral part heals faster/better because of more blood flow. I saw some source stated 4-6 weeks.


Not the lateral part, and also not the lateral meniscus. It’s the outer part of either meniscus - outer, like the rind of a fruit.

The recovery time and the tissue’s ability to heal itself depends on the type of tear, as well as the extent and location of it.

I mentioned earlier that I suffered a lateral meniscus tear while paddleboarding a few years ago. Because it was lateral (exterior) side of the knee, there's plenty of blood flow to the area and it doesn't always require surgery. I just let it heal naturally. It took a couple of months but I'm not a professional athlete with access to state of the art recovery programs and I wasn't really putting my knee through the type of loads that someone like Timelord would. It took me 6 months before I could even ski again  :angel:

If it had been a medial (inner) meniscus tear, then it's going to take longer to heal and will probably require surgery, because there's no blood flow to that part of the knee.

If it is indeed a lateral tear, it should hopefully will have a better prognosis. But every person and injury is different. Depends on the size of the tear, the ability of the athlete to tolerate pain, the type of loads that the knee has to bear, the amount of flexion and articulation the joint has to go through, and how much stability the knee has overall. If the tear doesn't affect those things, then it's entirely possible he could play through it until it heals. Other people might not be able to even put weight on the joint, and might find it difficult to articulate it. But until we know all that we won't know for sure how long it would take.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 03:34:20 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #142 on: March 29, 2022, 05:47:02 AM »

Offline radiohead

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Fingers crossed he’ll be back by the second round? Of course that’s assuming we make it out of the first.

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #143 on: March 29, 2022, 06:21:30 AM »

Offline Damiano Brancopreto

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Am I wrong or we continously have a major player out for injury in the playoff since years? I remember Isiah Thomas, Kyrie a couple of times, Jaylen Brown....

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #144 on: March 29, 2022, 07:44:32 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Best case seems to be, maybe he can return by the 2nd round? If we can draw a non-BKN, non-MIL or non-PHI team in the 1st round, I think we'll be fine.

The playoffs start in 3 weeks. With the right vitamins he'll be playing.

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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #145 on: March 29, 2022, 08:14:56 AM »

Offline ozgod

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when this conversation shifts to surgery, does anyone know what type?

i had arthroscopic micro fracture surgery for my meniscus seven years ago (can’t remember if i had a tear or had just worn it down from too much running), and i was back to full time running in six weeks with no issues.

is this an option for rob or is “surgery” referencing something more invasive?

I suspect it would depend on the type of tear but meniscus surgery, whether it's repair or menisectomy is usually arthroscopic. All depends on the type of tear and whether they decide to sew it or remove part of it to improve the stability of the joint. The initial arthroscopy will help them decide what they need to do because they need to see what the tear looks like, they can't really tell that from just an MRI.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #146 on: March 29, 2022, 08:35:41 AM »

Online Roy H.

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when this conversation shifts to surgery, does anyone know what type?

i had arthroscopic micro fracture surgery for my meniscus seven years ago (can’t remember if i had a tear or had just worn it down from too much running), and i was back to full time running in six weeks with no issues.

is this an option for rob or is “surgery” referencing something more invasive?

I suspect it would depend on the type of tear but meniscus surgery, whether it's repair or menisectomy is usually arthroscopic. All depends on the type of tear and whether they decide to sew it or remove part of it to improve the stability of the joint. The initial arthroscopy will help them decide what they need to do because they need to see what the tear looks like, they can't really tell that from just an MRI.

I understand the basics of this, but do you have any idea of the long-term affects of repair vs. removal?  Is full removal what leads to the dreaded "bone on bone"?


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Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #147 on: March 29, 2022, 08:44:50 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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I think we are similar on lineups. I just have less confidence in Theis's ability to absorb the minutes. I'm very happy to have Theis but I think he's the least capable to absorb minutes, or at least the rotation as a whole is. The same would be true if Al was hurt.

I don't think its the end of the world, but Tatum is going to play more "big" on defense. He's done it before and he's capable, but it takes effort and I'm worried it hurts the offense. We play an 8 1/2 man rotation, so any injury is tough.

If by that you mean the overall line up is 1 big, I am not so sure.  We don't have great depth at wing either right now.  So less minutes for Theis and less 2-big line ups probably means more minutes for Nesmith in 1-big line ups.  Brown and Tatum's minutes aren't going to change.  I don't think going small with Nesmith is better than going "regular" with Theis or GWill. 

You will see the 1-big line up some, for sure, but people were saying this all off season, Tatum was our PF, the modern NBA doesn't need PFs anymore.  Clearly our best line up by far is 1 PG (Smart), 2 Wings (Brown, Tatum) and 2 bigs (Horford, RWill).  I think we will continue to play 2-bigs, Theis will get the vast majority of RWill's minutes and I think Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Theis will turn out to be our best line up.

BTW, Theis 41 minutes last night, 1 foul.  Foul trouble could be an issue for him but I think he will figure that out.  He was tired at the end of the game last night, that was clear, but he can give the Celtics 24 min or so of quality enough play on most nights.

Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #148 on: March 29, 2022, 09:04:37 AM »

Offline ozgod

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when this conversation shifts to surgery, does anyone know what type?

i had arthroscopic micro fracture surgery for my meniscus seven years ago (can’t remember if i had a tear or had just worn it down from too much running), and i was back to full time running in six weeks with no issues.

is this an option for rob or is “surgery” referencing something more invasive?

I suspect it would depend on the type of tear but meniscus surgery, whether it's repair or menisectomy is usually arthroscopic. All depends on the type of tear and whether they decide to sew it or remove part of it to improve the stability of the joint. The initial arthroscopy will help them decide what they need to do because they need to see what the tear looks like, they can't really tell that from just an MRI.

I understand the basics of this, but do you have any idea of the long-term affects of repair vs. removal?  Is full removal what leads to the dreaded "bone on bone"?

Yes, people who have total menisectomies usually become candidates for osteoarthritis, because the purpose of the meniscus (as with most cartilage in the body) is to reduce the friction when the joint articulates (rotates or flexes). When it tears it causes pain and reduces knee stability and range of motion.

Menisectomy can remove part of all of the meniscus, depending on what type of tear it is and where it is. Most menisectomies would be partial where they would trim away the part of the meniscus that is torn because there is no prospect of it healing (usually for medial meniscus tears where there's no blood flow to that part of the joint). The preferred option would still be to sew it but depending on where it is it may not be easy to do so via arthroscopy and they may just decide to trim.

Total menisectomies almost always lead to osteoarthritis, because then the friction is the articular cartilage (at the bottom of the patella, that would normally rub against the meniscus) is rubbing against the top of the tibia when you flex and rotate your knee. Over years that articular cartilage wears down (like a brake pad) and when it wears out you get the is the bone-on-bone that can cause bone spurs to develop which then causes significant pain. Then you are a candidate for a knee arthroplasty (replacement). Like my dad, he has had lots of little meniscus tears in his left knee, which was never stable to begin with because he suffered a broken patella slipping on the ice in Philly 20 years ago so he may be looking at one in the next 5-10 years or so if his osteoarthritis continues to develop.

That's very unlikely for Rob - it's usually something that would be done in older patients as part of a knee arthroplasty (replacement). But even partial menisectomies increase the risk of osteoarthritis, as does suffering a tear and leaving it untreated. The risk factor is a bit lower than total though. But Rob, like a lot of basketball players that rely on explosiveness, will always be at risk of osteoarthritis when he gets older.

If it is indeed a lateral meniscus tear, the chance of having to do a menisectomy is more minimal than if it was a medial tear, because a) blood flow to the lateral part of the meniscus means it has a great chance to heal on its own; and b) it's easier for orthopods to get to the meniscus to repair it. So assuming that is indeed the case he's got a great chance at a full and quick recovery (though given his other knee issues in the past they may decide to play it safe with him and hold him out longer than needed to make sure he has max stability in his knee when he returns).
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Timelord (Shams: Suspected Meniscus Tear)
« Reply #149 on: March 29, 2022, 09:06:25 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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I think we are similar on lineups. I just have less confidence in Theis's ability to absorb the minutes. I'm very happy to have Theis but I think he's the least capable to absorb minutes, or at least the rotation as a whole is. The same would be true if Al was hurt.

I don't think its the end of the world, but Tatum is going to play more "big" on defense. He's done it before and he's capable, but it takes effort and I'm worried it hurts the offense. We play an 8 1/2 man rotation, so any injury is tough.

If by that you mean the overall line up is 1 big, I am not so sure.  We don't have great depth at wing either right now.  So less minutes for Theis and less 2-big line ups probably means more minutes for Nesmith in 1-big line ups.  Brown and Tatum's minutes aren't going to change.  I don't think going small with Nesmith is better than going "regular" with Theis or GWill. 

You will see the 1-big line up some, for sure, but people were saying this all off season, Tatum was our PF, the modern NBA doesn't need PFs anymore.  Clearly our best line up by far is 1 PG (Smart), 2 Wings (Brown, Tatum) and 2 bigs (Horford, RWill).  I think we will continue to play 2-bigs, Theis will get the vast majority of RWill's minutes and I think Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Theis will turn out to be our best line up.

BTW, Theis 41 minutes last night, 1 foul.  Foul trouble could be an issue for him but I think he will figure that out.  He was tired at the end of the game last night, that was clear, but he can give the Celtics 24 min or so of quality enough play on most nights.

I think this injury is more reason to aim for certain matchups than avoiding a team like the Nets. If we can get Timelord back before we play a big team like the 6ers or Bucks then I think we're in good shape, matchups like the Cavs/Bulls/Heat in the first and second rounds are probably our best case scenario
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