Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[jambr380]

The other thing I keep coming back to in regard to the White trade is that, to this day, I believe the decision to sit out the 2020 trade deadline cost Boston a Finals appearance. I wouldn't be surprised if Stevens feels the same way. Whether they win it all or Milwaukee wins the next two and the season's over, having White and Theis off the bench instead of Schroeder and Enes leaves the team better-positioned in a year when they have a plausible path to the Finals. I can live with that.

I don't disagree with this, but the trade off is really having White and Theis vs Schroder, Richardson, and Enes (and Romeo). I'm not sure if you just forgot about Richardson, but he has been the main topic in this debate.

[Big333223]

Is there any criticism of White that isn't centered on his shooting?

Is White had averaged 36% from 3 since the trade deadline and otherwise played exactly the same way, would there be any criticism of him at all?

It sucks that his shot hasn't been falling but the shots he's taking have been good and the way he's been playing otherwise has been excellent. I'm optimistic that his shot will turn around and maybe it already has. He's 5/13 against the Bucks which is good.

[slamtheking]

Is there any criticism of White that isn't centered on his shooting?

Is White had averaged 36% from 3 since the trade deadline and otherwise played exactly the same way, would there be any criticism of him at all?

It sucks that his shot hasn't been falling but the shots he's taking have been good and the way he's been playing otherwise has been excellent. I'm optimistic that his shot will turn around and maybe it already has. He's 5/13 against the Bucks which is good.

about White himself, I don't think so.

about what it cost to acquire White, plenty.

He's not a stiff but his acquisition essentially has to replace the production of Richardson, Romeo and Schroder.  Schroder wasn't in that specific deal but he was moved because the C's now had a ballhandler that could step in for what Schroder offered.  While he does offer that ballhandling aspect as well as good defense, he's not covering the scoring aspect sufficiently. 

[nebist]

Is there any criticism of White that isn't centered on his shooting?

Is White had averaged 36% from 3 since the trade deadline and otherwise played exactly the same way, would there be any criticism of him at all?

It sucks that his shot hasn't been falling but the shots he's taking have been good and the way he's been playing otherwise has been excellent. I'm optimistic that his shot will turn around and maybe it already has. He's 5/13 against the Bucks which is good.

about White himself, I don't think so.

about what it cost to acquire White, plenty.

He's not a stiff but his acquisition essentially has to replace the production of Richardson, Romeo and Schroder.  Schroder wasn't in that specific deal but he was moved because the C's now had a ballhandler that could step in for what Schroder offered.  While he does offer that ballhandling aspect as well as good defense, he's not covering the scoring aspect sufficiently.

I would argue that Schroder was a net negative. I'd be interested to see Smart's stats (on an individual level) and team stats pre-and-post Schroder from this year. Although Schroder produced counting stats, I think for this particular team moving off him was addition by subtraction.

[Roy H.]

Is there any criticism of White that isn't centered on his shooting?

Is White had averaged 36% from 3 since the trade deadline and otherwise played exactly the same way, would there be any criticism of him at all?

It sucks that his shot hasn't been falling but the shots he's taking have been good and the way he's been playing otherwise has been excellent. I'm optimistic that his shot will turn around and maybe it already has. He's 5/13 against the Bucks which is good.

about White himself, I don't think so.

about what it cost to acquire White, plenty.

He's not a stiff but his acquisition essentially has to replace the production of Richardson, Romeo and Schroder.  Schroder wasn't in that specific deal but he was moved because the C's now had a ballhandler that could step in for what Schroder offered.  While he does offer that ballhandling aspect as well as good defense, he's not covering the scoring aspect sufficiently.

I would argue that Schroder was a net negative. I'd be interested to see Smart's stats (on an individual level) and team stats pre-and-post Schroder from this year. Although Schroder produced counting stats, I think for this particular team moving off him was addition by subtraction.

Also, if you’re including Schroder, don’t you also have to include Theis’ production, as well as Pritchard’s insertion into the rotation?

[colincb]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

[Roy H.]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

I’ll disagree about the pick swap.  Six years is a long time.  Ascending now doesn’t mean we’ll be contending in six seasons.

[Moranis]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

As I've consistently argued that is never the way to look at a draft pick.  A draft pick gives a team the right to draft every available player thereafter.  So when you look at a draft and say with the 5th pick in 2009 Minnesota got Ricky Rubio when they acquired the pick from the Wizards (for basically Mike Miller), the Wizards may think, well that isn't too bad, especially when the 6th pick was Jonny Flynn (also to Minnesota).  I just don't think that is the way to look at it when Steph Curry went 7th and DeMar DeRozan went 9th.  The value of the 5th pick isn't just who ends up getting drafted, but every reasonable selection thereafter (like you aren't taking Danny Green, the 46th pick in that draft in the top 10 even if in a redraft he would have been a top 10 player).  Just because a team misses on a pick, doesn't mean you would have missed on the pick.   The deeper in the draft you go, the less available good players there are to choose from, and that is why the value of the pick depreciates.  A 25th pick still has value as that gives you a shot every player not drafted in the top 24.  Less value than the lottery, but not terrible value, even if who ultimately goes 25th was the wrong selection, it doesn't alter the value.

[Celtics2021]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

I’ll disagree about the pick swap.  Six years is a long time.  Ascending now doesn’t mean we’ll be contending in six seasons.

Certainly it doesn't.  At the same time, Brown and Tatum will turn 31 and 30 in the 27-28 season, still in the prime of their careers, perhaps even better than they are today.  While neither are under contract through then (obviously), it is more likely than not that the C's will be able to keep both if they want to, and making a trade like the White trade shows the two the team's willingness to put players around them to help them win, as opposed to hoarding draft picks.  Meanwhile, the Spurs' best asset is a 73 year-old head coach.  If there were odds as to whether the Celtics or Spurs would have a better record in the 2027-2028 season, it's difficult to imagine they wouldn't be better for the Celtics, even given it's that far into the future.

[Neurotic Guy]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

As I've consistently argued that is never the way to look at a draft pick.  A draft pick gives a team the right to draft every available player thereafter.  So when you look at a draft and say with the 5th pick in 2009 Minnesota got Ricky Rubio when they acquired the pick from the Wizards (for basically Mike Miller), the Wizards may think, well that isn't too bad, especially when the 6th pick was Jonny Flynn (also to Minnesota).  I just don't think that is the way to look at it when Steph Curry went 7th and DeMar DeRozan went 9th.  The value of the 5th pick isn't just who ends up getting drafted, but every reasonable selection thereafter (like you aren't taking Danny Green, the 46th pick in that draft in the top 10 even if in a redraft he would have been a top 10 player).  Just because a team misses on a pick, doesn't mean you would have missed on the pick.   The deeper in the draft you go, the less available good players there are to choose from, and that is why the value of the pick depreciates.  A 25th pick still has value as that gives you a shot every player not drafted in the top 24.  Less value than the lottery, but not terrible value, even if who ultimately goes 25th was the wrong selection, it doesn't alter the value.

Of course all that’s true but it’s folly to presume you would have made the right pick when there’s a couple of hits and dozens of misses after #25.

Every trade is a role of the dice.  Cs rolled a known commodity in JRich for someone they believed to have a skill set better suited to what they wanted.  The assets over and above JRich will either prove to have been worth spending or not.  We’ll see if Romeo becomes a player, and we’ll see how many players selected after 25 become players. Then we’ll see if the swap happens. We’ll also see if DW grows as a Celtic and maybe strengthens his long-range shooting.   

Bottom line is that if it plays out as an overpay we won’t know for a while.  In the meantime the Cs believe they have a more valuable player in the rotation than they had pre-trade.

[celticsclay]

Best 25th pick all-time per CBS Sports:

25. MARK PRICE

Jeff Ruland was known as "McFilthy" and became a good college coach, Tony Allen was a true defensive star, but Price's game is too solid to miss here.

Price, Ruland and Tony Allen? The three best!!

All the hand-wringing in these forums about late picks and worst still, pick swaps, particularly given that the Cs are ascending, is ridiculous given NBA history.

I’ll disagree about the pick swap.  Six years is a long time.  Ascending now doesn’t mean we’ll be contending in six seasons.

Certainly it doesn't.  At the same time, Brown and Tatum will turn 31 and 30 in the 27-28 season, still in the prime of their careers, perhaps even better than they are today.  While neither are under contract through then (obviously), it is more likely than not that the C's will be able to keep both if they want to, and making a trade like the White trade shows the two the team's willingness to put players around them to help them win, as opposed to hoarding draft picks.  Meanwhile, the Spurs' best asset is a 73 year-old head coach.  If there were odds as to whether the Celtics or Spurs would have a better record in the 2027-2028 season, it's difficult to imagine they wouldn't be better for the Celtics, even given it's that far into the future.

Not to mention when you have this pick swap option for another team you have even more incentive to try and and win as many games as possible. The nets situation that netted us stars is extremely unusual.

[nickagneta]

Isn't White making what Richardson + Romeo, two lesser players, were making. If the trade didn't happen, the team would still be paying the amount of money White is making. So all this concern about the money is all for nothing.

[Moranis]

Isn't White making what Richardson + Romeo, two lesser players, were making. If the trade didn't happen, the team would still be paying the amount of money White is making. So all this concern about the money is all for nothing.

Until a year from now, when those guys aren't here or make less and Boston has some hefty luxury tax bills and starts becoming a repeater because as it sits now Boston is almost certainly paying the tax next year.  Al is off the books for 23-24, so it may be possible to get out of the tax that year, but in 24-25 Brown gets a new contract (and a rather large raise I'd imagine) and Boston is right back in the tax (or a very young team again).  White's big contract (for a bench player) just limits some of the things Boston can do. 

I don't think White was overpaid on the Spurs, but I do think he is overpaid on the Celtics.  Role matters on those things.

[jambr380]

Isn't White making what Richardson + Romeo, two lesser players, were making. If the trade didn't happen, the team would still be paying the amount of money White is making. So all this concern about the money is all for nothing.

Until a year from now, when those guys aren't here or make less and Boston has some hefty luxury tax bills and starts becoming a repeater because as it sits now Boston is almost certainly paying the tax next year.  Al is off the books for 23-24, so it may be possible to get out of the tax that year, but in 24-25 Brown gets a new contract (and a rather large raise I'd imagine) and Boston is right back in the tax (or a very young team again).  White's big contract (for a bench player) just limits some of the things Boston can do. 

I don't think White was overpaid on the Spurs, but I do think he is overpaid on the Celtics.  Role matters on those things.

Yeah, if we move Smart in a mega-deal (not something I want to happen), then White immediately becomes essential as the lead PG and starter.

But, I'm definitely pro-White tonight. He has been awesome - let's hope he can continue in the 2nd half and we pull this one out!

Edit: boy oh boy did the last part of my response not age well. Sorry about my pre-excitement to those reading this post-worst loss of the season.

[SHAQATTACK]

Team first guys are our glue