Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[slamtheking]

For people who don't like this trade, let me give you a hypothetical. If we win banner #18 this year and White has a crucial good game or two, would you still care about it being an overpay? Lets go further and say that White drops off a cliff and by the time that pick swap occurs we are terrible and the Spurs are great. Would the trade still have been worth it for a championship?

A "good" game is what he's supposed to have and not a reason to dismiss a trade that overpaid to get him.  now, if he had a couple of "great" games in addition to all good games going forward, maybe.  But the odds of White being the player that comes up big to get banner 18 is very unlikely. 

The most likely players to come up big for us in winning a title are (in order): Tatum, Brown, Smart, Al, Timelord, GWill then White -- only ahead of PP and Theis.  It could even be argued PP could be put ahead of White just because PP can have a hot game where he's burying a bunch of critical 3's whereas we won't get that from White. 

an overpay is an overpay, pure and simple.  the real question is whether the fanbase will ignore that if the C's win the title. 

here's the flip side.  Say the C's lose the title because they can't get any scoring off the bench.  What if White's good game is the anomaly this postseason and we lose out because the bench and bench scoring costs us?  Do those that love this trade start to wonder if the price was worth it -- particularly next year if White's offense doesn't improve?

You can just say yes without your obvious bias getting in the way.

I didn't say yes nor do I have a bias (obvious or other).  I don't like overpaying for players and especially players that are not top-end talent.   for me to be okay with what we paid for him, he'd have to be a lynchpin in securing the title this year.  I don't see that happening.  there's no guarantee that even if he plays better next year the team will have this good a chance to win the title.

[Roy H.]

For people who don't like this trade, let me give you a hypothetical. If we win banner #18 this year and White has a crucial good game or two, would you still care about it being an overpay? Lets go further and say that White drops off a cliff and by the time that pick swap occurs we are terrible and the Spurs are great. Would the trade still have been worth it for a championship?

I'm somebody who is fine with the trade and who likes the player a lot.  I do think we overpaid in terms of the pick swap, and I don't love White's contract.  However, if he contributes to a team winning a title, that trade paid off in a big way.

It's like my opinion of the Horford / Kemba trade.  It's a results-oriented business.  When we were below .500, the trade looked like a bad one, because we had sacrificed a decent pick (which turned into a very good prospect) for no noticeable improvement in team play.  That's a bad trade.  When Horford is playing like he is now, it's a very good trade.  If we win a title, it's a fantastic trade, no matter how good Sengun turns out to be.

[jambr380]

For people who don't like this trade, let me give you a hypothetical. If we win banner #18 this year and White has a crucial good game or two, would you still care about it being an overpay? Lets go further and say that White drops off a cliff and by the time that pick swap occurs we are terrible and the Spurs are great. Would the trade still have been worth it for a championship?

I'm somebody who is fine with the trade and who likes the player a lot.  I do think we overpaid in terms of the pick swap, and I don't love White's contract.  However, if he contributes to a team winning a title, that trade paid off in a big way.

It's like my opinion of the Horford / Kemba trade.  It's a results-oriented business.  When we were below .500, the trade looked like a bad one, because we had sacrificed a decent pick (which turned into a very good prospect) for no noticeable improvement in team play.  That's a bad trade.  When Horford is playing like he is now, it's a very good trade.  If we win a title, it's a fantastic trade, no matter how good Sengun turns out to be.

The Horford case will be an interesting one, but unlike you, I am still basing the trade on how well we do. If the Bucks win the series and Horford declines next season, then I will see it as a bad trade. I get it, it's been fun having the Horford renaissance and obviously he's been important to our playoff run, but giving up the #16 pick/Sengun (or the two 1sts OKC got for that pick) in order to go out in the 2nd round is just not worth it to me. Fwiw, the money is about the same with Kemba's buy-out and Al being paid the full amount on his two remaining years.

As for White, he is fine. He is getting paid about $1M less per year than Marcus' upcoming extension ($73M vs $77m) and he is just nowhere near the player Marcus is. I would love to combine him and Theis into a player who has more impact, but I am not going to get my hopes up. The White trade certainly didn't seem like an accident - they obviously very much targeted him. So hopefully he can just be a more traditionally productive player on the floor moving forward now and in the future.

[Big333223]

Back to back really good games from White. Excellent defense, decent shooting, and attacking the basket.

I think his ability to make quick reads and attack the basket (8 FTA's in Game 3) is a big part of his positive impact on the court. He doesn't let the ball stop. He keeps things moving and creates pressure on the other teams' defense.

If he can keep up what he's been doing the last 2 games, it'll be a great trade.

[Kernewek]

I didn't say yes nor do I have a bias (obvious or other). 

I don't like overpaying for players and especially players that are not top-end talent.   for me to be okay with what we paid for him, he'd have to be a lynchpin in securing the title this year.

[Neurotic Guy]

For people who don't like this trade, let me give you a hypothetical. If we win banner #18 this year and White has a crucial good game or two, would you still care about it being an overpay? Lets go further and say that White drops off a cliff and by the time that pick swap occurs we are terrible and the Spurs are great. Would the trade still have been worth it for a championship?

A "good" game is what he's supposed to have and not a reason to dismiss a trade that overpaid to get him.  now, if he had a couple of "great" games in addition to all good games going forward, maybe.  But the odds of White being the player that comes up big to get banner 18 is very unlikely. 

The most likely players to come up big for us in winning a title are (in order): Tatum, Brown, Smart, Al, Timelord, GWill then White -- only ahead of PP and Theis.  It could even be argued PP could be put ahead of White just because PP can have a hot game where he's burying a bunch of critical 3's whereas we won't get that from White. 

an overpay is an overpay, pure and simple.  the real question is whether the fanbase will ignore that if the C's win the title. 

here's the flip side.  Say the C's lose the title because they can't get any scoring off the bench.  What if White's good game is the anomaly this postseason and we lose out because the bench and bench scoring costs us?  Do those that love this trade start to wonder if the price was worth it -- particularly next year if White's offense doesn't improve?

You can just say yes without your obvious bias getting in the way.

I didn't say yes nor do I have a bias (obvious or other).  I don't like overpaying for players and especially players that are not top-end talent.   for me to be okay with what we paid for him, he'd have to be a lynchpin in securing the title this year.  I don't see that happening.  there's no guarantee that even if he plays better next year the team will have this good a chance to win the title.

It’s a strange comment IMO that you don’t like overpaying for players as I doubt anyone would say that they do like overpaying for players.  But reality is that most of the time one team in a trade overpays - it’s really about the extent of the overpay or about the present v. future value of the assets.  In this case if it was an overpay to send JRich, Romeo, pick 25 and possible swap down the road, I don’t think it was a big overpay. The likelihood any of the assets traded would either bring in a better player than DW or will become better than DW aren’t great. Of course that’s open for debate and remains to be seen.

[gouki88]

I don't get it. For 5 years we've been screaming for players that fit with the J's, players that don't demand the ball, players that aren't black holes on offense. Complaints about guys like: Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving, Terry Rozier, Dennis Schroeder, Kemba Walker, Josh Richardson, and there are probably more I am forgetting.

We all wanted guys that could distribute, be ok with not being an integral part of the offense, is a + defender, and knows his role. Derrick White checks every single one of those boxes. Not every player on a championship contending team is going to get 15-18 ppg on 40/50 splits. We've finally found a guy that fits what we've wanted for a long time, and now it's a bash fast? I don't understand.

It definitely says more about the commenters than the player.

Go DWhite. Go Celtics!

for the bolded part, yes, that's what the team needs.  what's missing in that list is the player also needs to be able to score.  not necessarily a 20+ point scorer but someone that can reliably hit open shots and preferably average double digits to help the J's on the offensive end.  Derrick White has not been that player.   

yesterday's game was the performance everyone hoped for - solid D, respectable shooting performance, solid ball handling/passing.  nothing overwhelming or flashy - just got the job done.

Beyond literally averaging double digit points, I suppose.

[jambr380]

I don't get it. For 5 years we've been screaming for players that fit with the J's, players that don't demand the ball, players that aren't black holes on offense. Complaints about guys like: Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving, Terry Rozier, Dennis Schroeder, Kemba Walker, Josh Richardson, and there are probably more I am forgetting.

We all wanted guys that could distribute, be ok with not being an integral part of the offense, is a + defender, and knows his role. Derrick White checks every single one of those boxes. Not every player on a championship contending team is going to get 15-18 ppg on 40/50 splits. We've finally found a guy that fits what we've wanted for a long time, and now it's a bash fast? I don't understand.

It definitely says more about the commenters than the player.

Go DWhite. Go Celtics!

for the bolded part, yes, that's what the team needs.  what's missing in that list is the player also needs to be able to score.  not necessarily a 20+ point scorer but someone that can reliably hit open shots and preferably average double digits to help the J's on the offensive end.  Derrick White has not been that player.   

yesterday's game was the performance everyone hoped for - solid D, respectable shooting performance, solid ball handling/passing.  nothing overwhelming or flashy - just got the job done.

Beyond literally averaging double digit points, I suppose.

I don't think stk meant in his career. White is averaging 7ppg/2apg/36% shooting in the playoffs so far. And that is including his 2 previous good games. For a guy making an average of ~$18M/yr, that level of production isn't going to cut it - especially when we need him most. Let's hope we see more of the last 2 games and less of the first 6.

[gouki88]

I don't get it. For 5 years we've been screaming for players that fit with the J's, players that don't demand the ball, players that aren't black holes on offense. Complaints about guys like: Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving, Terry Rozier, Dennis Schroeder, Kemba Walker, Josh Richardson, and there are probably more I am forgetting.

We all wanted guys that could distribute, be ok with not being an integral part of the offense, is a + defender, and knows his role. Derrick White checks every single one of those boxes. Not every player on a championship contending team is going to get 15-18 ppg on 40/50 splits. We've finally found a guy that fits what we've wanted for a long time, and now it's a bash fast? I don't understand.

It definitely says more about the commenters than the player.

Go DWhite. Go Celtics!

for the bolded part, yes, that's what the team needs.  what's missing in that list is the player also needs to be able to score.  not necessarily a 20+ point scorer but someone that can reliably hit open shots and preferably average double digits to help the J's on the offensive end.  Derrick White has not been that player.   

yesterday's game was the performance everyone hoped for - solid D, respectable shooting performance, solid ball handling/passing.  nothing overwhelming or flashy - just got the job done.

Beyond literally averaging double digit points, I suppose.

I don't think stk meant in his career. White is averaging 7ppg/2apg/36% shooting in the playoffs so far. And that is including his 2 previous good games. For a guy making an average of ~$18M/yr, that level of production isn't going to cut it - especially when we need him most. Let's hope we see more of the last 2 games and less of the first 6.

That's certainly true - he was beyond terrible in that regard in the Brooklyn series. He is shooting the three ball at 39% in the series against Milwaukee though.

[pokeKingCurtis]

For people who don't like this trade, let me give you a hypothetical. If we win banner #18 this year and White has a crucial good game or two, would you still care about it being an overpay? Lets go further and say that White drops off a cliff and by the time that pick swap occurs we are terrible and the Spurs are great. Would the trade still have been worth it for a championship?

I'm somebody who is fine with the trade and who likes the player a lot.  I do think we overpaid in terms of the pick swap, and I don't love White's contract.  However, if he contributes to a team winning a title, that trade paid off in a big way.

It's like my opinion of the Horford / Kemba trade.  It's a results-oriented business.  When we were below .500, the trade looked like a bad one, because we had sacrificed a decent pick (which turned into a very good prospect) for no noticeable improvement in team play.  That's a bad trade.  When Horford is playing like he is now, it's a very good trade.  If we win a title, it's a fantastic trade, no matter how good Sengun turns out to be.

The Horford case will be an interesting one, but unlike you, I am still basing the trade on how well we do. If the Bucks win the series and Horford declines next season, then I will see it as a bad trade. I get it, it's been fun having the Horford renaissance and obviously he's been important to our playoff run, but giving up the #16 pick/Sengun (or the two 1sts OKC got for that pick) in order to go out in the 2nd round is just not worth it to me. Fwiw, the money is about the same with Kemba's buy-out and Al being paid the full amount on his two remaining years.

As for White, he is fine. He is getting paid about $1M less per year than Marcus' upcoming extension ($73M vs $77m) and he is just nowhere near the player Marcus is. I would love to combine him and Theis into a player who has more impact, but I am not going to get my hopes up. The White trade certainly didn't seem like an accident - they obviously very much targeted him. So hopefully he can just be a more traditionally productive player on the floor moving forward now and in the future.

I mean we are an Al Horford tip off of being up 3-1.

That is to say, would you not say giving the Jay's a chance at competing at an elite level is worth it? Only one team gets to win it all, so in a way it's about maximizing the number of times you get to roll the dice

[ozgod]

The Globe has its 2nd article in a week about how effective White was (the first one was after Game 2 when he filled in for Smartacus) and about how much Ime likes him. Maybe he sees something the rest of us don't?

I know everyone says +/- is worse than useless, but White's +/- the last 3 games have been +22 (tied for best with Gwill), +9 (best on team) and +18 (2nd best on team after Al). I guess it's just coincidental? He was probably being carried by better players.

MILWAUKEE — When the Celtics acquired guard Derrick White at the trade deadline in February, coach Ime Udoka said he checked a lot of boxes.

Three months later, with the Celtics facing the defending champions in the second round of the playoffs, Udoka has continued to use the same refrain: The beauty of White is that he checks a lot of boxes.

After a quiet first-round series against Brooklyn, White’s versatility and value have become difficult to ignore against the Bucks. In Game 2, he started in place of Marcus Smart, who was sidelined with a right quadriceps contusion. In Monday night’s Game 4, Udoka kept White on the court as part of the closing lineup in a critical fourth quarter.

Game 4 proved to be White’s best game of the postseason. He played 34 minutes, by far his highest total of the playoffs, picking up extra time with Jaylen Brown in foul trouble. White finished with 11 points on 4-of-6 shooting, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, and 0 turnovers.

The Bucks lamented their inability to put the Celtics away — and White’s baskets played a role in keeping Boston within striking distance. With Milwaukee’s best guard defenders, Jrue Holiday and Wesley Matthews, tasked with containing the Celtics’ bigger offensive threats, White often is left with a matchup, Grayson Allen or Pat Connaughton, that he can attack.

Udoka credited White with his effective decision-making in those situations.

“We needed that with Jaylen out,” Udoka said. “As I’ve said all along, it’s not only the scoring that stands out with what [Derrick] does, it’s him getting into the paint, making the right play, and if he has a favorable matchup, he can get downhill and get to his floater or pull up.”

At the other end of the floor, White was just as useful. As they did with Brown, the Bucks tried to create switches so that White would be defending Giannis Antetokounmpo, but White held his ground. According to the NBA’s matchup data, the Bucks were 0 of 13 from the field when White was the primary defender. In fact, through four games, the Bucks are a combined 12 of 40 from the field (30 percent) when guarded by White. Holiday, in particular, is 2 of 14 (14.3 percent) when guarded by White.

With Khris Middleton still inactive because of an MCL sprain in his left knee, White’s defense against Milwaukee’s guards is welcomed. When the rest of the Bucks are struggling to score, the burden on Antetokounmpo only increases.

The Celtics gave up a considerable amount to acquire White — guard Josh Richardson, 2019 lottery pick Romeo Langford, a 2022 first-round draft pick, and the rights to swap first-round picks in 2028 — but Udoka expressed confidence in the deal at the time. He expected a seamless transition, having coached White for two seasons as an assistant in San Antonio and for a summer as an assistant with Team USA.

The trade has certainly paid off.

While Game 4 may have been his best, White’s contributions have spanned the entire series. In Boston’s losing effort in Game 3, when Jayson Tatum struggled to get anything going offensively, White’s scoring helped the Celtics stay in the game, with 14 points on 3-of-6 shooting, 2 rebounds, and 0 turnovers. Even in Game 2, when he missed all six of his field goal attempts, White finished with five assists and plus-22.

White is never going to be the focal point of the Celtics. Tatum is on the cusp of superstardom, Al Horford is turning back the clock, and Smart is the league’s Defensive Player of the Year. White’s style isn’t flashy and his numbers don’t always pop, but he is stepping up big on both ends in his role in the rotation.

“That’s the benefit of Derrick,” Udoka said. “I think he does a lot of things well.”

Full article at https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/05/10/sports/why-derrick-whites-versatility-is-big-reason-why-celtics-are-going-toe-toe-with-bucks/

[slamtheking]

I don't get it. For 5 years we've been screaming for players that fit with the J's, players that don't demand the ball, players that aren't black holes on offense. Complaints about guys like: Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving, Terry Rozier, Dennis Schroeder, Kemba Walker, Josh Richardson, and there are probably more I am forgetting.

We all wanted guys that could distribute, be ok with not being an integral part of the offense, is a + defender, and knows his role. Derrick White checks every single one of those boxes. Not every player on a championship contending team is going to get 15-18 ppg on 40/50 splits. We've finally found a guy that fits what we've wanted for a long time, and now it's a bash fast? I don't understand.

It definitely says more about the commenters than the player.

Go DWhite. Go Celtics!

for the bolded part, yes, that's what the team needs.  what's missing in that list is the player also needs to be able to score.  not necessarily a 20+ point scorer but someone that can reliably hit open shots and preferably average double digits to help the J's on the offensive end.  Derrick White has not been that player.   

yesterday's game was the performance everyone hoped for - solid D, respectable shooting performance, solid ball handling/passing.  nothing overwhelming or flashy - just got the job done.

Beyond literally averaging double digit points, I suppose.

I don't think stk meant in his career. White is averaging 7ppg/2apg/36% shooting in the playoffs so far. And that is including his 2 previous good games. For a guy making an average of ~$18M/yr, that level of production isn't going to cut it - especially when we need him most. Let's hope we see more of the last 2 games and less of the first 6.

That's certainly true - he was beyond terrible in that regard in the Brooklyn series. He is shooting the three ball at 39% in the series against Milwaukee though.

TP to Jambr for getting my point.

his career numbers offer hope to those that think this year is an aberration.  His current yearly performance and his playoff performance are the truly relevant numbers to evaluate.

White's numbers this series:
Game 1: 10 pts.  2-6 shooting. 2-3 from 3.  16 minutes.  4 rbs, 1 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk, 2 TOs.  -8 +/-
Game 2: 0 pts. 0-6 shooting. 0-4 from 3.  28 minutes. 4 rbs, 5 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk, 2 TOs.  +22 +/-
Game 3: 14 pts.  3-6 shooting. 2-3 from 3.  21 minutes. 2 rbs, 0 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk, 0 TOs. +9 +/-
Game 4: 11 pts. 4-6 shooting. 1-3 from 3.  34 minutes.  4 rbs, 3 asst, 0 stl, 1 blk, 0 TOs.  +18 +/-
Total: 35 points. 9-24 shooting.  5-13 from 3.  99 minutes.  14 rbs, 9 asst, 2 stl, 1 blk, 4 TOs  41 +/-

he's incredibly consistent with his shot attempts -- very odd he's taking 6 shots every game.  My take on his performance this series is that the last 2 games have been good --> solid performance but not great.  the first 2, not good enough.

for what we gave up, I would expect someone who fills a stat sheet across the board a bit more.  as the secondary ball handler, 9 asst in 99 minutes isn't enough.  2 stls in 99 minutes for someone who's supposed to be a great defender isn't enough.   9-24 shooting isn't enough -- never mind 4-11 from 2. 

[pokeKingCurtis]

Basketball intelligence is often underrated. Derek Fisher’s value wasn’t his shooting (he was better than White right now), or his passing, or defense - not one thing stood out dramatically.

But he tended to always be making the right play - the right pass, the key box out, the right defensive rotation, etc.

That’s not measured in the box score. Then, what’s his vibe with the team? Does he need the ball (Richardson could sit on the ball and was a slow decision maker). White does need the ball, doesn’t demand it, he understands the team hierarchy and strategy, buys into and executes it efficiently every night.

He hasn’t wowed anyone on the offensive shooting side of the ball (hopefully that changes) but he tends to make all the right plays nearly all the time - super valuable.

the more this thread is fermenting, the more i feel like this fisher comparison makes so much sense.

who else fits that mold - shane battier i guess, maybe boris diaw, bruce bowen...perk

rarer in guards

[gouki88]

Basketball intelligence is often underrated. Derek Fisher’s value wasn’t his shooting (he was better than White right now), or his passing, or defense - not one thing stood out dramatically.

But he tended to always be making the right play - the right pass, the key box out, the right defensive rotation, etc.

That’s not measured in the box score. Then, what’s his vibe with the team? Does he need the ball (Richardson could sit on the ball and was a slow decision maker). White does need the ball, doesn’t demand it, he understands the team hierarchy and strategy, buys into and executes it efficiently every night.

He hasn’t wowed anyone on the offensive shooting side of the ball (hopefully that changes) but he tends to make all the right plays nearly all the time - super valuable.

the more this thread is fermenting, the more i feel like this fisher comparison makes so much sense.

who else fits that mold - shane battier i guess, maybe boris diaw, bruce bowen...perk

rarer in guards

Chuck Hayes was a good one brought up earlier.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Basketball intelligence is often underrated. Derek Fisher’s value wasn’t his shooting (he was better than White right now), or his passing, or defense - not one thing stood out dramatically.

But he tended to always be making the right play - the right pass, the key box out, the right defensive rotation, etc.

That’s not measured in the box score. Then, what’s his vibe with the team? Does he need the ball (Richardson could sit on the ball and was a slow decision maker). White does need the ball, doesn’t demand it, he understands the team hierarchy and strategy, buys into and executes it efficiently every night.

He hasn’t wowed anyone on the offensive shooting side of the ball (hopefully that changes) but he tends to make all the right plays nearly all the time - super valuable.

the more this thread is fermenting, the more i feel like this fisher comparison makes so much sense.

who else fits that mold - shane battier i guess, maybe boris diaw, bruce bowen...perk

rarer in guards

Chuck Hayes was a good one brought up earlier.

Nice, whenever I think Chuck Hayes, I also think PJ Tucker.