Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[BudweiserCeltic]

Basketball intelligence is often underrated. Derek Fisher’s value wasn’t his shooting (he was better than White right now), or his passing, or defense - not one thing stood out dramatically.

But he tended to always be making the right play - the right pass, the key box out, the right defensive rotation, etc.

That’s not measured in the box score. Then, what’s his vibe with the team? Does he need the ball (Richardson could sit on the ball and was a slow decision maker). White does need the ball, doesn’t demand it, he understands the team hierarchy and strategy, buys into and executes it efficiently every night.

He hasn’t wowed anyone on the offensive shooting side of the ball (hopefully that changes) but he tends to make all the right plays nearly all the time - super valuable.

the more this thread is fermenting, the more i feel like this fisher comparison makes so much sense.

who else fits that mold - shane battier i guess, maybe boris diaw, bruce bowen...perk

rarer in guards

Chuck Hayes was a good one brought up earlier.

The clearest example in my opinion is Andre Iguodala.  He never averaged more than 7.8 points with GSW, but he was one of the most impactful players in the NBA.

Good call.

Also, in response to Moranis - Derek Fisher, Shane Battier and Chuck Hayes were all marginally over the MLE. Andre Iguodala, who I like as the most accurate comparison, commanded much more than the MLE for years beyond being an All-Star.

Hayes was never more than the MLE.  I dont think Fishers was either.  Battier signed a 6 year extension with Memphis in 2005 that started at 4.9 million, which was below the 5 million MLE limit.  So I don't think he did either, though he may have hard larger extensions so perhaps it was slightly more during certain years

Looking it up, goukii was right:  all three were above the MLE, marginally so.

But, Iguodala got paid.  That's partially because he was better than those players, and because at his height he was all-star caliber.  But, I think he's what we hope for from White. 

I'm not sure how much you watched Iggy back in his prime.  He's exactly what we want from White:  passing, defense, and a high level of intelligence.  He and Jrue Holiday have been my favorite non-Celtics for a long time.  He may be the *only* player I fully buy into the "giant impact without it showing in the boxscore" argument.  He's the one guy where I could sort of see where ESPN was coming from with their RPM stat.  generally had Iguodala near the top of the league for SFs / SGs, ahead of even Durant.  If you want to be bored to tears, but also informed, go read some of my writeups on him in the CB Draft / DKC. 

Now, White doesn't have the height or athleticism of Iguodala, so that's a limiting factor.  But, he can easily do the same kinds of things and be a highly, highly valuable role player.  A top-75 player, even, if he grows his game and gets more comfortable.

Derek Fisher signed with the Warriors for the MLE after the 04 season.  His starting salary that first season was 4.903 million which was exactly the MLE for the 2004-2005 season.  It bumped up about 500k a year and was 6.3739 million during the 07-08 season, which was more than the starting salary for the MLE that season, but the contract he signed was absolutely a contract for the MLE (and after that 08 season he was no where near the MLE). 

I believe that is also the case for Battier.  That because of raises an individual year might have been more than that season's starting MLE, but like Fisher, he signed a MLE contract. 

I had to look again on Hayes.  It appears that Hayes had originally signed for the MLE with the Kings, but had the deal voided after a failed physical.  Once he was cleared again (about a month later), the Kings upped the total contract by about 1 million over 4 years (to smooth things over), so it was in fact slightly above the MLE.

Either way, those guys weren't signing contracts for nearly double the MLE.  Nor did their teams give up useful assets to acquire them.  That is the point I was making.  When you are paying someone the salary that White is being paid, you expect more production than you are getting.  For the role White is playing on Boston he is absolutely overpaid, especially when you consider the acquisition cost.  If Boston wins a title, who cares, but if the Bucks win tonight and then close Boston out, I do think it will start to be more of a question on the value.  You can't pay your 6th man double the MLE for very long.  It just isn't financially viable.

Why are you guys getting so caught up with the term "MLE" under completely different financial situations and CBA. Back then there wasn't as much money as we have had in recent years. Most good role players, in particular young ones in their rookie scale contracts extensions, are getting more than MLE money...

Then add to that different rules on who can use the MLE and who can't, and it's really becomes a pointless exercise.

Sadly White's offensive production has diminished with us, but his impact on the floor hasn't.

[Celtics2021]

Basketball intelligence is often underrated. Derek Fisher’s value wasn’t his shooting (he was better than White right now), or his passing, or defense - not one thing stood out dramatically.

But he tended to always be making the right play - the right pass, the key box out, the right defensive rotation, etc.

That’s not measured in the box score. Then, what’s his vibe with the team? Does he need the ball (Richardson could sit on the ball and was a slow decision maker). White does need the ball, doesn’t demand it, he understands the team hierarchy and strategy, buys into and executes it efficiently every night.

He hasn’t wowed anyone on the offensive shooting side of the ball (hopefully that changes) but he tends to make all the right plays nearly all the time - super valuable.

the more this thread is fermenting, the more i feel like this fisher comparison makes so much sense.

who else fits that mold - shane battier i guess, maybe boris diaw, bruce bowen...perk

rarer in guards

Chuck Hayes was a good one brought up earlier.

The clearest example in my opinion is Andre Iguodala.  He never averaged more than 7.8 points with GSW, but he was one of the most impactful players in the NBA.

Good call.

Also, in response to Moranis - Derek Fisher, Shane Battier and Chuck Hayes were all marginally over the MLE. Andre Iguodala, who I like as the most accurate comparison, commanded much more than the MLE for years beyond being an All-Star.

Hayes was never more than the MLE.  I dont think Fishers was either.  Battier signed a 6 year extension with Memphis in 2005 that started at 4.9 million, which was below the 5 million MLE limit.  So I don't think he did either, though he may have hard larger extensions so perhaps it was slightly more during certain years

Looking it up, goukii was right:  all three were above the MLE, marginally so.

But, Iguodala got paid.  That's partially because he was better than those players, and because at his height he was all-star caliber.  But, I think he's what we hope for from White. 

I'm not sure how much you watched Iggy back in his prime.  He's exactly what we want from White:  passing, defense, and a high level of intelligence.  He and Jrue Holiday have been my favorite non-Celtics for a long time.  He may be the *only* player I fully buy into the "giant impact without it showing in the boxscore" argument.  He's the one guy where I could sort of see where ESPN was coming from with their RPM stat.  generally had Iguodala near the top of the league for SFs / SGs, ahead of even Durant.  If you want to be bored to tears, but also informed, go read some of my writeups on him in the CB Draft / DKC. 

Now, White doesn't have the height or athleticism of Iguodala, so that's a limiting factor.  But, he can easily do the same kinds of things and be a highly, highly valuable role player.  A top-75 player, even, if he grows his game and gets more comfortable.

Derek Fisher signed with the Warriors for the MLE after the 04 season.  His starting salary that first season was 4.903 million which was exactly the MLE for the 2004-2005 season.  It bumped up about 500k a year and was 6.3739 million during the 07-08 season, which was more than the starting salary for the MLE that season, but the contract he signed was absolutely a contract for the MLE (and after that 08 season he was no where near the MLE). 

I believe that is also the case for Battier.  That because of raises an individual year might have been more than that season's starting MLE, but like Fisher, he signed a MLE contract. 

I had to look again on Hayes.  It appears that Hayes had originally signed for the MLE with the Kings, but had the deal voided after a failed physical.  Once he was cleared again (about a month later), the Kings upped the total contract by about 1 million over 4 years (to smooth things over), so it was in fact slightly above the MLE.

Either way, those guys weren't signing contracts for nearly double the MLE.  Nor did their teams give up useful assets to acquire them.  That is the point I was making.  When you are paying someone the salary that White is being paid, you expect more production than you are getting.  For the role White is playing on Boston he is absolutely overpaid, especially when you consider the acquisition cost.  If Boston wins a title, who cares, but if the Bucks win tonight and then close Boston out, I do think it will start to be more of a question on the value.  You can't pay your 6th man double the MLE for very long.  It just isn't financially viable.

Why are you guys getting so caught up with the term "MLE" under completely different financial situations and CBA. Back then there wasn't as much money as we have had in recent years. Most good role players, in particular young ones in their rookie scale contracts extensions, are getting more than MLE money...

Then add to that different rules on who can use the MLE and who can't, and it's really becomes a pointless exercise.

Sadly White's offensive production has diminished with us, but his impact on the floor hasn't.

Exactly this.  Back in Fisher's day, the MLE was ~11.2% of the salary cap.  This year the big MLE (which didn't even exist back then, as now there are two) is only 8.5%.  White next year will take up ~13.8% of the cap, about as close to Fisher's cap percentage as the MLE is now.  You should judge a player's deal and production relative to the CBA he's currently in, as well as the future cap increases that are expected (almost 9% each of the next two years, maybe 15% the year after that), and not some historical threshold that is pretty irrelevant.

I'm not sure White is a bargain, but he's definitely fairly paid, and his contract isn't unaffordable for the Celtics or most other teams.

[Who]

Now, White doesn't have the height or athleticism of Iguodala, so that's a limiting factor.  But, he can easily do the same kinds of things and be a highly, highly valuable role player.  A top-75 player, even, if he grows his game and gets more comfortable.

This is where I value Derrick White. I have him somewhere around 15th among PGs. So five positions equals five times 15th equals 75th. So somewhere around 75th in the league is a good marker for where I place his value.

Iggy was a top 25 player for several years. An All-Star caliber guy. I still find it ridiculous he got only 1 All-Star nod. He deserved so much more than that. He was phenomenal.

Iggy was also lucky (relative to D.White) to play in the league when outside shooting was less important. Derrick White would be more valuable in 2005-15 than he is in 2015-25 due to decreased emphasis on outside shooting. I'd rate him as a top 10 PG in 2005-2010 and a top 50 NBA player rather than a top 75. Likewise, I wonder what kind of drop-off Iggy may see in today's game due to his own sketchy outside shot (perhaps top 40 rather than top 25).

Also the minutes guys play nowadays is less which decreases another one of Iggy's main values - his stamina. He was able to give you 40mpg of high quality play. So even if his play was slightly lesser than a guy who could only give you 33-34, he could make up the difference  and even out-perform that guy overall by giving you more PT. So 33-34 higher quality minutes + 14-15 bench minutes vs Iggy at 40mpg + 8 bench minutes. This (stamina, engine) allowed him to out-work and out-perform guys of similar or slightly better talent. An often underappreciated trait in today's NBA given the change in minutes allocation but something that was once highly valued in the NBA and rightly so.

[GetLucky]

I don't have a problem with White's contract.  Contracts are never entirely fair but here is how he stacks up against other non-star Celtics

Smart     $17.2M
White      $16.9M
RWill       $10.7M

On the Celtics, White will likely not be a starter but he is a starter level player (he has started 159 of his 263 NBA games).  RWill is probably the bargain in this but his durability issues brought his value down.

And I think it is hard to go back and compare White's contract to what Derek Fisher got 18 years ago in 2004.  I feel White can play to this contract, we'll see.

Contrary to what many C's fans thought (and probably still think -- we are spoiled with our front office's recent good decision making), Smart and Rob Williams are by far two of the best bargains in the league.

[jambr380]

People are falling all over themselves to defend White and his contract. Soon to be 28 y/o Derrick White is currently the 7th best player on the team and he stands to make $54.3M over the next 3 years, not including incentives. Sure, if Wyc is willing to go deep into the tax, then we can afford to pay our 7th best player over $18M/yr, but that might not be likely.

And why in the world are we comparing White to all-star and Finals MVP, Andre Iguodala? Sure, White can be a small piece to a championship-level team, but he has a definite ceiling. The reason he isn't flashy and often makes the simple, unspectacular play is because he lacks the ability to be spectacular. I agree that it is nice for a player to be aware of his deficiencies, but he seems to be more of what we expected Romeo Langford to be than a top 75 NBA player.

I think we should just roll back our expectations a bit on White. He went for 11 points and 3 assists and people are celebrating his performance like he just put up 30 and 10. I don't doubt that he can be a better player than he has shown in these playoffs, but I just find it strange that he has such a huge fan club.

And, just a note, I don't even really care about the trade. We essentially got Richardson for free and the Cs continued their dominance from before the trade deadline making their pick less valuable. I am much more concerned about the contract, as there will be a cap on how much Brad is allowed to spend.

[GetLucky]

People are falling all over themselves to defend White and his contract. Soon to be 28 y/o Derrick White is currently the 7th best player on the team and he stands to make $54.3M over the next 3 years, not including incentives. Sure, if Wyc is willing to go deep into the tax, then we can afford to pay our 7th best player over $18M/yr, but that might not be likely.

And why in the world are we comparing White to all-star and Finals MVP, Andre Iguodala? Sure, White can be a small piece to a championship-level team, but he has a definite ceiling. The reason he isn't flashy and often makes the simple, unspectacular play is because he lacks the ability to be spectacular. I agree that it is nice for a player to be aware of his deficiencies, but he seems to be more of what we expected Romeo Langford to be than a top 75 NBA player.

I think we should just roll back our expectations a bit on White. He went for 11 points and 3 assists and people are celebrating his performance like he just put up 30 and 10. I don't doubt that he can be a better player than he has shown in these playoffs, but I just find it strange that he has such a huge fan club.

And, just a note, I don't even really care about the trade. We essentially got Richardson for free and the Cs continued their dominance from before the trade deadline making their pick less valuable. I am much more concerned about the contract, as there will be a cap on how much Brad is allowed to spend.

Paying your 7th best player 1/7th of the salary cap (the soft cap, which we were not going to be meaningfully below anyway, not the tax line) is a net positive to me. Especially when he's a player who can defend Giannis in crunch time and get multiple isolation stops, handle the ball against playoff pressure and not turn it over or pick up his dribble, and not disrupt the offense at all. Plus, he's the exact age of our core, gets along with 4 of the main players on the team (his former USA teammates), and knows the coach's system and our star players' tendencies incredibly well. I loved the deal when it was made, and I love it even more now.

[nebist]

I truly don't understand the pearl-clutching around the White trade. He is not a star, but he is almost the perfect player for what our roster needed to maximize what we already had. We needed his size at the backup G spot to maintain our switch-ability and toughness on D (our primary identity). We needed his combination of ball-handling, passing, and secondary creation (one of our 2 primary weaknesses on offense). If he can get back to his career average from 3 (which is closer to mediocre than bad with shooting as he has been this year), then he will be fully the perfect fit. We've played great since he's been here. We didn't give up anything really good to get him (putting aside the pick swap variable which is too minimal a chance to be hurtful to worry about in my opinion). I liked Richardson, but he's a mediocre player ultimately. Romeo is a complete zero. The 25th pick in the draft this year is essentially a nothing asset when we have our top 10 rotation players locked up next year (including a past 14th pick that needs development and can't currently crack the rotation).

[droopdog7]

People are falling all over themselves to defend White and his contract. Soon to be 28 y/o Derrick White is currently the 7th best player on the team and he stands to make $54.3M over the next 3 years, not including incentives. Sure, if Wyc is willing to go deep into the tax, then we can afford to pay our 7th best player over $18M/yr, but that might not be likely.

And why in the world are we comparing White to all-star and Finals MVP, Andre Iguodala? Sure, White can be a small piece to a championship-level team, but he has a definite ceiling. The reason he isn't flashy and often makes the simple, unspectacular play is because he lacks the ability to be spectacular. I agree that it is nice for a player to be aware of his deficiencies, but he seems to be more of what we expected Romeo Langford to be than a top 75 NBA player.

I think we should just roll back our expectations a bit on White. He went for 11 points and 3 assists and people are celebrating his performance like he just put up 30 and 10. I don't doubt that he can be a better player than he has shown in these playoffs, but I just find it strange that he has such a huge fan club.

And, just a note, I don't even really care about the trade. We essentially got Richardson for free and the Cs continued their dominance from before the trade deadline making their pick less valuable. I am much more concerned about the contract, as there will be a cap on how much Brad is allowed to spend.

In all this concern about what White is making, I'm not sure I've seen a solution proposed?  What exactly are people asking here?  If the answer is nothing or I don't know, then this is nothing but noise, crying over spilled milk, water under the bridge, sunk cost, or whatever analogy you want to drop.   

[jambr380]

People are falling all over themselves to defend White and his contract. Soon to be 28 y/o Derrick White is currently the 7th best player on the team and he stands to make $54.3M over the next 3 years, not including incentives. Sure, if Wyc is willing to go deep into the tax, then we can afford to pay our 7th best player over $18M/yr, but that might not be likely.

And why in the world are we comparing White to all-star and Finals MVP, Andre Iguodala? Sure, White can be a small piece to a championship-level team, but he has a definite ceiling. The reason he isn't flashy and often makes the simple, unspectacular play is because he lacks the ability to be spectacular. I agree that it is nice for a player to be aware of his deficiencies, but he seems to be more of what we expected Romeo Langford to be than a top 75 NBA player.

I think we should just roll back our expectations a bit on White. He went for 11 points and 3 assists and people are celebrating his performance like he just put up 30 and 10. I don't doubt that he can be a better player than he has shown in these playoffs, but I just find it strange that he has such a huge fan club.

And, just a note, I don't even really care about the trade. We essentially got Richardson for free and the Cs continued their dominance from before the trade deadline making their pick less valuable. I am much more concerned about the contract, as there will be a cap on how much Brad is allowed to spend.

Paying your 7th best player 1/7th of the salary cap (the soft cap, which we were not going to be meaningfully below anyway, not the tax line) is a net positive to me. Especially when he's a player who can defend Giannis in crunch time and get multiple isolation stops, handle the ball against playoff pressure and not turn it over or pick up his dribble, and not disrupt the offense at all. Plus, he's the exact age of our core, gets along with 4 of the main players on the team (his former USA teammates), and knows the coach's system and our star players' tendencies incredibly well. I loved the deal when it was made, and I love it even more now.

See, this is exactly what I mean. I don't dislike Derrick White and I am not unhappy that we traded for him, but I don't understand why everything has to be so black and white. You loved the deal when it was made and you love it even more now? Why do you feel that way? By all measures, Derrick White has been a worse basketball player than advertised - even worse in the playoffs. Even Daniel Theis has had more of an impact than Derrick White in these playoffs and he has been a zero in this series.

Isn't it okay to be disappointed with White's level of production, while also being hopeful that he can be similar to the player he was in SAS?

To droopdog - yeah, I would probably gauge his value around the league this summer, but also realize that he probably won't have much of a market. I do believe he can be a good player for us, but am hoping we can see more of game 4 White and less of the entire Nets series version of him.

[footey]

Will not be able to properly assess this trade for at least 2-3 years.

What if Derrick becomes a key member of this run and we win a championship, or not.

What if the 25th pick turns out to be a future all star?

What if Pop turns Romeo into a solid player? We already know he can defend well. What if he continues improving his shot, and doesn't get injured so much anymore?

Way too soon to tell.

[bogg]

What if the 25th pick turns out to be a future all star?

See, I don't think that matters at all when evaluating the deal for Boston. If you move a future first that ends up near the end of the round and someone strikes gold in the twenties, then good for them. However, there are so many variables involved months or years down the line in that particular player going later than they should have and that particular team drafting someone who the Boston front office may not/likely wouldn't have drafted that I just don't think you can evaluate the trade that way.

They moved a good bench piece and a late first for a more versatile bench piece in a season when they were trying to make a playoff run. That's fine. The real swing question that won't be answered for some time is that pick swap - if both Jays stick around it's likely moot, but that's the real roll of the dice involved (and I'm in support of the trade, for the record).

[droopdog7]

Will not be able to properly assess this trade for at least 2-3 years.

What if Derrick becomes a key member of this run and we win a championship, or not.

What if the 25th pick turns out to be a future all star?

What if Pop turns Romeo into a solid player? We already know he can defend well. What if he continues improving his shot, and doesn't get injured so much anymore?

Way too soon to tell.

I understand that people want to judge based on what actually happened but the 25th is a complete crap shoot.  This is what i am judging the value as.  And even if the pick becomes a future all star, obviously that player isn't necessarily the one we would pick.

Like, would anyone disagree that trading the 20th pick for the 5th pick is a great idea in any draft?  Everyone would say that it is.  So the idea that the 5th pick could bust and the 20th could get to the HOF doesn't all of a sudden mean that the trade was a bad idea or even that it was the wrong move.  It obviously wasn't.

[droopdog7]

People are falling all over themselves to defend White and his contract. Soon to be 28 y/o Derrick White is currently the 7th best player on the team and he stands to make $54.3M over the next 3 years, not including incentives. Sure, if Wyc is willing to go deep into the tax, then we can afford to pay our 7th best player over $18M/yr, but that might not be likely.

And why in the world are we comparing White to all-star and Finals MVP, Andre Iguodala? Sure, White can be a small piece to a championship-level team, but he has a definite ceiling. The reason he isn't flashy and often makes the simple, unspectacular play is because he lacks the ability to be spectacular. I agree that it is nice for a player to be aware of his deficiencies, but he seems to be more of what we expected Romeo Langford to be than a top 75 NBA player.

I think we should just roll back our expectations a bit on White. He went for 11 points and 3 assists and people are celebrating his performance like he just put up 30 and 10. I don't doubt that he can be a better player than he has shown in these playoffs, but I just find it strange that he has such a huge fan club.

And, just a note, I don't even really care about the trade. We essentially got Richardson for free and the Cs continued their dominance from before the trade deadline making their pick less valuable. I am much more concerned about the contract, as there will be a cap on how much Brad is allowed to spend.

Paying your 7th best player 1/7th of the salary cap (the soft cap, which we were not going to be meaningfully below anyway, not the tax line) is a net positive to me. Especially when he's a player who can defend Giannis in crunch time and get multiple isolation stops, handle the ball against playoff pressure and not turn it over or pick up his dribble, and not disrupt the offense at all. Plus, he's the exact age of our core, gets along with 4 of the main players on the team (his former USA teammates), and knows the coach's system and our star players' tendencies incredibly well. I loved the deal when it was made, and I love it even more now.

See, this is exactly what I mean. I don't dislike Derrick White and I am not unhappy that we traded for him, but I don't understand why everything has to be so black and white. You loved the deal when it was made and you love it even more now? Why do you feel that way? By all measures, Derrick White has been a worse basketball player than advertised - even worse in the playoffs. Even Daniel Theis has had more of an impact than Derrick White in these playoffs and he has been a zero in this series.

Isn't it okay to be disappointed with White's level of production, while also being hopeful that he can be similar to the player he was in SAS?

To droopdog - yeah, I would probably gauge his value around the league this summer, but also realize that he probably won't have much of a market. I do believe he can be a good player for us, but am hoping we can see more of game 4 White and less of the entire Nets series version of him.

As the GM, you want to know the value of all your players around the league at all times.  That's pretty much the job.  And I disagree that White wouldn't have any value.  I garner that he would have a lot more than you think, which of course is the crux of the disagreement here.

[Roy H.]

What if the 25th pick turns out to be a future all star?

See, I don't think that matters at all when evaluating the deal for Boston. If you move a future first that ends up near the end of the round and someone strikes gold in the twenties, then good for them. However, there are so many variables involved months or years down the line in that particular player going later than they should have and that particular team drafting someone who the Boston front office may not/likely wouldn't have drafted that I just don't think you can evaluate the trade that way.

They moved a good bench piece and a late first for a more versatile bench piece in a season when they were trying to make a playoff run. That's fine. The real swing question that won't be answered for some time is that pick swap - if both Jays stick around it's likely moot, but that's the real roll of the dice involved (and I'm in support of the trade, for the record).

Yeah, I basically agree.  Granted, it's a results-oriented business, and I sometimes evaluate trades.  But, you also need to be able to account for risk.

At the time the trade was made, that pick could have ended up anywhere from mid-lottery to late first round, but most likely somewhere around 20th.  We did a little better than that, but in general, I'd view the trade as "who is likely going to be available right around #20 this year?"  And, in any given year, that pick probably won't turn into anything special. 

I mean, Nikola Jokic was taken 40th.  He was Denver's own pick, but hypothetically, what if they'd received that pick as a throw in in a trade where they got a decent rotation player?  Do you evaluate the GM on "you traded a two-time MVP for a role player!!", or "you got a decent role player for the 41st pick in a mediocre draft"?

[bogg]

The other thing I keep coming back to in regard to the White trade is that, to this day, I believe the decision to sit out the 2020 trade deadline cost Boston a Finals appearance. I wouldn't be surprised if Stevens feels the same way. Whether they win it all or Milwaukee wins the next two and the season's over, having White and Theis off the bench instead of Schroeder and Enes leaves the team better-positioned in a year when they have a plausible path to the Finals. I can live with that.