Author Topic: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward  (Read 8098 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2020, 07:39:42 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10733
  • Tommy Points: 1350
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Fwiw, if Oladipo worked out so well that you signed him to a $30M+/yr contract, then I believe we would be looking to trade Kemba for future picks after the 2021 season. Not only will there will be a lot of teams with cap space who would love to have Kemba, but it also becomes a lot more reasonable trading him after two years rather than one after he chose us as his max FA destination.

I said it before, but it's too bad Indy isn't interested in Kemba over Hayward. Our team would look a lot more balanced if you could re-sign Hayward and Oladipo for between $20-25M/yr than w/ super-expensive Kemba and Oladipo and no Hayward.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:41:21 AM by jambr380 »

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #121 on: October 26, 2020, 08:56:50 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5070
  • Tommy Points: 430
I am in the camp that we would benefit from adding to our big rotation.  Turner will not be the end all, that is for sure, but he would be a nice addition.  Oladipo as compared to Hayward is interesting.  To me, Hayward does what Brown and Tatum already do better.  Hayward is a nice player but Oladipo gives us something different than Hayward, actually more what Walker gives us.  So I like the trade (depending on how much else is involved).  We probably have to add a pick at least to Hayward.

Now where my mind goes with this is if we do get Oladipo, what does that mean for Walker.  Oladipo may not be healthy and he may not re-sign but what if the Celtics are already working on something to move Walker and this Indy trade is more about replacing Walker?

Two possible destinations for Walker that I have seen discussed are Philly (for Simmons in some form) and to NYK for picks and a trade exemption.  I would love to get Simmons, however unlikely this is, and I think Walker would be a really good fit to go with Embiid and Harris in Philly.

Even is this Indy trade is just what it seems, I think it could be good for the Celtics.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 11:03:29 AM by Vermont Green »

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #122 on: October 26, 2020, 03:02:45 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23806
  • Tommy Points: 1132
Also on Turner, I keep reading that he can’t cover Bam.

In this year’s playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs

Luckily, Theis and the Celts can handle Embiid with our without Turner.
In 36.2 mpg, Embiid averaged 30 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg, and 1.3 apg with a TS% of 60.0% in the playoffs.  I wouldn't exactly say they handled him.  That in fact seems like the exact opposite of handling.
Clever work using TS%, a stat inflated by foul shooting, instead of his pretty pathetic EFG% of 48.6% (around 4% lower than the league average).

Also conveniently ignored his assist:to ratio of 0.34:1, his averaging of nearly 5 fouls per game and his really poor defence by his standards. He also got swept, so...
His GameScore was 21.8, second only to Tatum in the series.  He was the only Sixers whos ORTG was larger than his DRTG over the series. 

And since when is getting to the line a bad thing.  He shot 59 foul shots in a 4 game series because unlike the original proposition, Theis, Kanter, and company couldn't handle him.  They let him do whatever he wanted.  His TOV% was actually lower in the series than it was in the regular season.  His FG% was down, but that was a result of him not shooting well at all from 3 as his 2PT% was identical in the regular season and post season at 51.7%. 

Embiid had a field day in the series.  Boston couldn't stop him at all.  He got tired because he was the only Sixer, aside from Shake Milton, that was seemingly playing basketball at all in the series.  Everyone else was atrocious, Embiid was not.
Lol, dude, game score? Seriously? That metric is just a lame attempt by John Hollinger to mash all the basic box score numbers into one.

His TOV% was lower, you're correct. Lower by less than 1%. His assist % was also lower. Lower by 9.4%. I can't seriously believe you'd argue that his passing and turnovers weren't an issue.

Do you think that maybe beating Embiid up with fouls and making him accountable on defence (where he was way less of an impact than he should be) could have forced him into taking threes on weak legs? He was also playing much more minutes than he physically is able to, and so he was a brick-laying machine in the last two games.

He wasn't atrocious. But the coaching staff were obviously happy to let him flail around in the key as much as he wanted because his passing sucks, and by extension he didn't impact winning as much as he should.
Teammates actually have to hit shots for someone to get assists.  The Sixers as a team shot 39.6% that series (and that includes Embiid's 45.9 - they were 37.8% without Embiid's attempts).  He definitely played more minutes, but when no one else is playing well, what is he supposed to do.  He had the best DRTG on the team by 5 over Horford.  To watch that series and act like Embiid is the reason the Sixers lost is just strange to me.
So when Embiid shoots badly you jump to his defence but when the 76ers scrubs shoot badly it's a disappointing effort on their part? Right...

Nobody, literally nobody in this thread even implied that Embiid was the reason Philly lost. Roy said Theis and Kanter handled Embiid, which they did, as his efficiency was down, his offensive rhythm was generally all over the place, and his team got swept. Then you leapt to the defence of Embiid.
You said his assists were down, which is why I brought up his teammates.  Embiid's 2PT% was 51.7 in the playoffs and exactly the same as his regular season average.  He went from 8.5 FT per game on 80.7% in the regular season to 14.8 FT per game on 81.4% in the playoffs.  He shot poorly from 3, without a doubt against the C's hitting just 4 of his 16 attempts (1 of 4 per game) in the series instead of his 1.1 on 3.4 attempts in the regular season.  However because of the significant increase at the line, his TS% in the playoffs was actually better than his TS% in the regular season at 60 to 59.

This notion that the C's somehow handled Embiid is just crazy nonsense.  He averaged 30 ppg and 12.3 rpg against the C's and actually increased his overall scoring efficiency because he was living at the foul line (which last time I checked is a pretty good place to be).  He even committed turnovers less frequently and stole the ball more frequently.  He committed fouls at right about the same rate and had only a moderate reduction in his blocking frequency.  Basically the only things he did worse than the regular season were shooting 3's and getting assists, though his assists were down in a large part because his teammates weren't hitting shots.

And it isn't like Theis or Kanter went off on the other end.  In around the same minutes, Embiid outperformed Theis and Kanter combined basically across the board (assists were really the only thing the C's did better, of course Theis and Kanter had teammates that actually hit shots).  And I know it isn't fair to compare the C's two centers to Embiid, as Embiid is a vastly superior player, but that is sort of the point.  When someone makes an outlandish claim, one that simply isn't supported by evidence, and then says scoreboard to support it, you know it is nonsense.
His teammates were perfectly fine as complementary offensive pieces for a low post stud, they had plenty of shooting (they probably lacked a second creator to share the bulk of the offensive load with Embiid, but the core concept of surrounding a dynamic post scorer with outside shooters was satisfied with what the Sixers had in that series). Their shooting percentages sucked because a) they were up against an elite defence b) they couldn't get open looks consistently from Embiid because the latter is a subpar passer c) there was no second creator next to Embiid so they had to create for themselves at times instead of being pure finishers.

I think Theis and Kanter "handled" Embiid well overall, Embiid scored like a madman but his creation was pretty meh throughout the series. One-dimensional big time scoring doesn't drive elite offences, you need a blend of high level scoring and playmaking to do that and our centres prevented their opposing matchup from doing both. That's a pretty good job to me when you consider that one of our centres is 6'8 and shouldn't really be guarding behemoths inside for long stretches while the other is a defensive sieve in general.
But Embiid is always a poor passer and shot creator for anyone that isn't him.  He wasn't all of a sudden going turn into something he wasn't.  The simple fact is, Embiid increased his scoring efficiency against Boston and performed pretty much the same or better across the board from a statistical standpoint every where else (and even his 3 point shooting, if he hit 1 shot he missed, his 3PT% is basically the same as well).  That isn't handling him at all.  It is in fact the opposite of handling him.  Handling Embiid is what the Raptors did to him last year, when he averaged just 17.6 ppg, 8.7 rpg with a TS% of 52.9.  Heck even the last time the C's played this Sixers in the 2018 ECS, they did a much better job on him overall when he was 23/14 but with a really bad TS% of 50.3%.  So we've actually seen what great big man defenders can do to Embiid in the playoffs, you know when they've actually handled him. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73
SG -
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04
PF - Karl Malone 97
C -

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2020, 04:28:27 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4529
  • Tommy Points: 274
Very interesting notes on Hayward in the Lowe Podcast. He says there lots of smoke on Hayward opting out and that’s there’s interest out there from teams.



Thought it was interesting with reports of FAs already agreeing to deals with teams with everything in flux.

Seems like the odds of Hayward opting out seem to be increasing. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2020, 04:34:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20332
  • Tommy Points: 2070
If Hayward can get decent annual value for 3+ years somewhere, he should opt out.  If he has another injury-riddled year next season, he will have a hard time getting a good long term deal.


I hope the Celts can get some kind of value out of Gordon leaving, if he does opt out. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2020, 04:35:11 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
  • Tommy Points: 220
Boston: Rudy Gobert
Indiana: Gordon Hayward
Utah: Myles Turner, Daniel Theis, Boston’s 2020 picks #14, 26, 30

Indiana gets the player they have been rumored to want. It also opens up the Center position for Sabonis to take over full time.

Does Utah have any concerns of Gobert walking? How is the relationship with Gobert and Mitchell. Turner is signed for the next 3 years at a manageable $18M per, and is still only 24 years old.

Boston gets a legitimate big man that they desperately need. Surrendering the first round picks helps prevent the additional payroll burden and roster spots. In addition, this team has enough young players, and needs to add veterans instead.

PG: Kemba
SG: Smart
SF: Brown
PF: Tatum
C: Gobert

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2020, 05:16:07 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17007
  • Tommy Points: 1882
Boston: Rudy Gobert
Indiana: Gordon Hayward
Utah: Myles Turner, Daniel Theis, Boston’s 2020 picks #14, 26, 30

Indiana gets the player they have been rumored to want. It also opens up the Center position for Sabonis to take over full time.

Does Utah have any concerns of Gobert walking? How is the relationship with Gobert and Mitchell. Turner is signed for the next 3 years at a manageable $18M per, and is still only 24 years old.

Boston gets a legitimate big man that they desperately need. Surrendering the first round picks helps prevent the additional payroll burden and roster spots. In addition, this team has enough young players, and needs to add veterans instead.

PG: Kemba
SG: Smart
SF: Brown
PF: Tatum
C: Gobert

Indiana makes out well -- Turner for Hayward.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2020, 05:20:27 PM »

Online Uncle_Stingfinger

  • Robert Williams
  • Posts: 112
  • Tommy Points: 5
Its never been a good fit for Hayward in Boston.  Pretty sure his family never really took to it.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2020, 05:47:04 PM »

Offline footey

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11952
  • Tommy Points: 1463
Boston: Rudy Gobert
Indiana: Gordon Hayward
Utah: Myles Turner, Daniel Theis, Boston’s 2020 picks #14, 26, 30

Indiana gets the player they have been rumored to want. It also opens up the Center position for Sabonis to take over full time.

Does Utah have any concerns of Gobert walking? How is the relationship with Gobert and Mitchell. Turner is signed for the next 3 years at a manageable $18M per, and is still only 24 years old.

Boston gets a legitimate big man that they desperately need. Surrendering the first round picks helps prevent the additional payroll burden and roster spots. In addition, this team has enough young players, and needs to add veterans instead.

PG: Kemba
SG: Smart
SF: Brown
PF: Tatum
C: Gobert

This is a good proposal. TP.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2020, 06:44:48 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15758
  • Tommy Points: 1458
  • On To Banner 18!
Just me reading the tea leaves, but it does seem like there is truth to the idea that Hayward could be traded, and as many have mentioned it seems Utah and Indiana in some way(s) could be involved. Indiana covets Hayward while the C's could look at guys like Turner, or even Gobert from the Jazz. I don't think this is just "guessing", it seems many of the reliable reporters out there also feel something is cooking.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2020, 06:51:07 PM »

Offline MattyIce

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1491
  • Tommy Points: 182
Boston: Rudy Gobert
Indiana: Gordon Hayward
Utah: Myles Turner, Daniel Theis, Boston’s 2020 picks #14, 26, 30

Indiana gets the player they have been rumored to want. It also opens up the Center position for Sabonis to take over full time.

Does Utah have any concerns of Gobert walking? How is the relationship with Gobert and Mitchell. Turner is signed for the next 3 years at a manageable $18M per, and is still only 24 years old.

Boston gets a legitimate big man that they desperately need. Surrendering the first round picks helps prevent the additional payroll burden and roster spots. In addition, this team has enough young players, and needs to add veterans instead.

PG: Kemba
SG: Smart
SF: Brown
PF: Tatum
C: Gobert

This is a good proposal. TP.

this looks good but i dont think we would have to give up all 3 picks. i don't see him staying in utah after this year, they'd be happy to get a cheaper turner on 3 years.  (although he played well for them in the playoffs, maybe they have second thoughts)

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2020, 06:56:24 PM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 840
  • Tommy Points: 62
Trade would be a win-win. Getting to watch Oladipo and Hayward play together would be a thing of beauty.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2020, 07:00:13 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10733
  • Tommy Points: 1350
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Boston: Rudy Gobert
Indiana: Gordon Hayward
Utah: Myles Turner, Daniel Theis, Boston’s 2020 picks #14, 26, 30

Indiana gets the player they have been rumored to want. It also opens up the Center position for Sabonis to take over full time.

Does Utah have any concerns of Gobert walking? How is the relationship with Gobert and Mitchell. Turner is signed for the next 3 years at a manageable $18M per, and is still only 24 years old.

Boston gets a legitimate big man that they desperately need. Surrendering the first round picks helps prevent the additional payroll burden and roster spots. In addition, this team has enough young players, and needs to add veterans instead.

PG: Kemba
SG: Smart
SF: Brown
PF: Tatum
C: Gobert

This is a good proposal. TP.

this looks good but i dont think we would have to give up all 3 picks. i don't see him staying in utah after this year, they'd be happy to get a cheaper turner on 3 years.  (although he played well for them in the playoffs, maybe they have second thoughts)

Yeah, that seems like a little too much from our side. Theis and 3 1sts in addition to Hayward? If Gobert was locked up long term, it would be one thing, but he is expiring just like Hayward. Don't get me wrong, I was one of the first to propose a Gobert/Hayward deal back on the night we were eliminated from the ECF, but that seems a little steep.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2020, 09:54:36 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

  • NCE
  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10524
  • Tommy Points: 778
Some members of the Pacers‘ organization continue to have interest in making a trade for Celtics forward Gordon Hayward, according to Ian Begley of SNY.tv, who cautions that it’s not clear whether Boston is open to moving Hayward or what the C’s would want in return for him.

This isn’t the first time this year that Hayward has been linked to Indiana. Approximately four months ago, J. Michael of The Indianapolis Star said during a podcast appearance that the veteran forward – an Indianapolis native who played his college ball at Butler – was a potential target for the Pacers.

“The kind of player Hayward is, is the kind of player (the Pacers) would definitely be interested in,” Michael said at the time.

Although Hayward can technically become a free agent this offseason, he’s expected to pick up his $34MM+ player option instead. Turning down that option in favor of a longer-term extension that locks in more overall guaranteed money is a possibility, but a new deal likely wouldn’t pay Hayward anything close to $34MM in 2020/21.

If and when he opts in, Hayward will be eligible to be traded, so it’s possible the Pacers and Celtics could work out a deal at that point — Myles Turner is one player who might pique Boston’s interest, for example. However, no Pacer is earning more than $21MM in ’20/21, so multiple pieces would be required in any trade and it would probably be a challenge for the two teams to agree on a fair deal.

Additionally, Begley’s report doesn’t specify exactly which members of the Pacers’ front office are intrigued by the possibility of acquiring Hayward. President of basketball operations Kevin Pritchard has the final say on personnel moves, so he’d obviously have to be on board with the idea.

We shouldn’t close the door on the idea of a homecoming for Hayward, but his contract situation complicates matters, as does the fact that neither Boston nor Indiana has a ton of cap flexibility. We’ll have to wait to see if anything comes of the Pacers’ alleged interest in the coming weeks.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2020, 10:00:44 PM »

Offline BackDoorCut

  • Robert Williams
  • Posts: 133
  • Tommy Points: 19
When does he have to exercise his option?