Author Topic: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward  (Read 10122 times)

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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2020, 06:16:05 PM »

Online Roy H.

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If the Pacers want Hayward the Celtics should not be giving them three draft picks and Langford.  Turner doesn't help them as much with Sabonis and Oladipo wants out.  Send Kanter and the 30th pick for taking him as salary filler.

Then try to flip Olidepo for a better fit as a 4th or 5th option and a bench piece.

Iím an Oladipo believer.  I think heís better than Hayward when healthy.  Heís basically a combination of Smart and Hayward.  If we add Turner for basically free, to me itís a steal.

I agree about trying to hold on to both Langford and #14, though.
It seems to me that Oladipo had one fluke year in 17/18.  He was awesome that year, but he wasn't awesome before that and he had regressed big time the following year before he got hurt.  He hasn't looked nearly as good as Hayward other than that one year.

I disagree.  Oladipo has better career averages, a higher peak, and always has been a better defender.
Oladipo did have a great peak, but I fear his best is well past him. He's a mediocre shooter (over the last two seasons he's been a plain bad shooter), his athleticism isn't what it was and he's becoming more turnover prone.

For my mind he needs to take a leaf out of DeMar DeRozan's playbook and hone in on his passing if he wants to age well. Jimmy Butler too. Acknowledge that the athleticism is waning, and transition from a decent passing 2 guard like DeRozan and Butler were into legitimate point-forward type passers.

Oladipo has already recovered to being better than where Hayward was in 2019.  Another off-season of recovery, and thereís no reason to think he wonít be back to a near approximation of himself.  In the first half of last year, he was an all-star.

Quad injuries are similar to ACLs.  Players are usually significantly better in their second year back. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:21:10 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2020, 06:25:39 PM »

Offline wiley

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I like Turner as an option. Not saying he is a top ten center but what are the FA and trade options? There doesn't seem to be any better. I'd think you stay away from Oladipo. I'd rather keep Hayward than take Oladipo. If it's not Turner and say Lamb for Hayward then I'd think you get a third team to take Olidapo. Maybe Knicks as a third team to get their pick with

Knicks getting Oladipo, pick 14 and 26.

Pacers getting Hayward, DSJ and pick 30.

C's getting Turner, pick 8 and a trade exemption.

For C's it consolidates picks, gets a Center and provides cap flexibility.

Knicks get a guy to help lead their team plus multiple first to keep building.

Pacers get a wing that fits, a backup guard and a first for two guys that supposedly want out.

Seems good basically.  Just take some of the Knicks haul away as they come out too far ahead in this...I don't think DSJ has value right now.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2020, 06:32:01 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If the Pacers want Hayward the Celtics should not be giving them three draft picks and Langford.  Turner doesn't help them as much with Sabonis and Oladipo wants out.  Send Kanter and the 30th pick for taking him as salary filler.

Then try to flip Olidepo for a better fit as a 4th or 5th option and a bench piece.

Iím an Oladipo believer.  I think heís better than Hayward when healthy.  Heís basically a combination of Smart and Hayward.  If we add Turner for basically free, to me itís a steal.

I agree about trying to hold on to both Langford and #14, though.
It seems to me that Oladipo had one fluke year in 17/18.  He was awesome that year, but he wasn't awesome before that and he had regressed big time the following year before he got hurt.  He hasn't looked nearly as good as Hayward other than that one year.

I disagree.  Oladipo has better career averages, a higher peak, and always has been a better defender.
Oladipo did have a great peak, but I fear his best is well past him. He's a mediocre shooter (over the last two seasons he's been a plain bad shooter), his athleticism isn't what it was and he's becoming more turnover prone.

For my mind he needs to take a leaf out of DeMar DeRozan's playbook and hone in on his passing if he wants to age well. Jimmy Butler too. Acknowledge that the athleticism is waning, and transition from a decent passing 2 guard like DeRozan and Butler were into legitimate point-forward type passers.

Oladipo has already recovered to being better than where Hayward was in 2019.  Another off-season of recovery, and thereís no reason to think he wonít be back to a near approximation of himself.  In the first half of last year, he was an all-star.

Quad injuries are similar to ACLs.  Players are usually significantly better in their second year back.
That may well be the case, Iím definitely not too familiar with quad injuries.

If he can return to being an 18PPG guy on ~45% from the field and ~36% from deep Iíd be happy to bring him in. His guard defence alongside Smart and Brown would be fearsome.

If our medical team was confident in his return to form Iíd probably more want to move Kemba than Hayward (longer salary, positional clog, etc.) and start Oladipo-Brown-Hayward-Tatum.

I really dislike Turner though. If we could turn it into a 3 team deal where we donít get Turner but rather get a big on a similar contract (JV for example) Iíd be on board
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2020, 06:34:32 PM »

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If the Pacers want Hayward the Celtics should not be giving them three draft picks and Langford.  Turner doesn't help them as much with Sabonis and Oladipo wants out.  Send Kanter and the 30th pick for taking him as salary filler.

Then try to flip Olidepo for a better fit as a 4th or 5th option and a bench piece.

Iím an Oladipo believer.  I think heís better than Hayward when healthy.  Heís basically a combination of Smart and Hayward.  If we add Turner for basically free, to me itís a steal.

I agree about trying to hold on to both Langford and #14, though.
It seems to me that Oladipo had one fluke year in 17/18.  He was awesome that year, but he wasn't awesome before that and he had regressed big time the following year before he got hurt.  He hasn't looked nearly as good as Hayward other than that one year.

I disagree.  Oladipo has better career averages, a higher peak, and always has been a better defender.
Oladipo did have a great peak, but I fear his best is well past him. He's a mediocre shooter (over the last two seasons he's been a plain bad shooter), his athleticism isn't what it was and he's becoming more turnover prone.

For my mind he needs to take a leaf out of DeMar DeRozan's playbook and hone in on his passing if he wants to age well. Jimmy Butler too. Acknowledge that the athleticism is waning, and transition from a decent passing 2 guard like DeRozan and Butler were into legitimate point-forward type passers.

Oladipo has already recovered to being better than where Hayward was in 2019.  Another off-season of recovery, and thereís no reason to think he wonít be back to a near approximation of himself.  In the first half of last year, he was an all-star.

Quad injuries are similar to ACLs.  Players are usually significantly better in their second year back.

So if Oladipo is much better than Hayward you would have no problem swapping them, salaries aside?

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2020, 06:55:07 PM »

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If the Pacers want Hayward the Celtics should not be giving them three draft picks and Langford.  Turner doesn't help them as much with Sabonis and Oladipo wants out.  Send Kanter and the 30th pick for taking him as salary filler.

Then try to flip Olidepo for a better fit as a 4th or 5th option and a bench piece.

Iím an Oladipo believer.  I think heís better than Hayward when healthy.  Heís basically a combination of Smart and Hayward.  If we add Turner for basically free, to me itís a steal.

I agree about trying to hold on to both Langford and #14, though.
It seems to me that Oladipo had one fluke year in 17/18.  He was awesome that year, but he wasn't awesome before that and he had regressed big time the following year before he got hurt.  He hasn't looked nearly as good as Hayward other than that one year.

I disagree.  Oladipo has better career averages, a higher peak, and always has been a better defender.
Oladipo did have a great peak, but I fear his best is well past him. He's a mediocre shooter (over the last two seasons he's been a plain bad shooter), his athleticism isn't what it was and he's becoming more turnover prone.

For my mind he needs to take a leaf out of DeMar DeRozan's playbook and hone in on his passing if he wants to age well. Jimmy Butler too. Acknowledge that the athleticism is waning, and transition from a decent passing 2 guard like DeRozan and Butler were into legitimate point-forward type passers.

Oladipo has already recovered to being better than where Hayward was in 2019.  Another off-season of recovery, and thereís no reason to think he wonít be back to a near approximation of himself.  In the first half of last year, he was an all-star.

Quad injuries are similar to ACLs.  Players are usually significantly better in their second year back.

So if Oladipo is much better than Hayward you would have no problem swapping them, salaries aside?

Straight up, I wouldnít necessarily upset the chemistry of the team.  Iíd be tempted, though.  It would be moderate risk, high reward.

With Turner attached, without a doubt.
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2020, 07:02:01 PM »

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I really dislike Turner though. If we could turn it into a 3 team deal where we donít get Turner but rather get a big on a similar contract (JV for example) Iíd be on board

I donít love Turner, but I do think that a combined 48 minutes of Theis and Turner is good enough to win. 

Iíd love to go back in time and find a way to keep Baynes, but absent that, starting centers who play defense and stretch the floor are hard to come by.
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2020, 07:15:00 PM »

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I really dislike Turner though. If we could turn it into a 3 team deal where we donít get Turner but rather get a big on a similar contract (JV for example) Iíd be on board

I donít love Turner, but I do think that a combined 48 minutes of Theis and Turner is good enough to win. 

Iíd love to go back in time and find a way to keep Baynes, but absent that, starting centers who play defense and stretch the floor are hard to come by.
I miss Baynes too. Just praying we can get a physical big man somehow. Not asking for much.

Might settle for that monster Azubuike with our 2nd rounder if we can't get anyone!
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2020, 07:28:27 PM »

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2020, 08:45:31 PM »

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Another approach to Hayward: trade him for a 3 and D wing, bench scoring, and lower salary.

Why? Haywardís best skill is passing/playmaking. Heís underutilized as the Csí 4th option. Another team that needs those skills could give up a solid 3 and D wing who fits well next to Kemba and the Js. (Iíll say minimum 40% from 3). We address our bench scoring issue, *and* we get under the tax and can use the full MLE.

This trade works in the online trade machines, tho Iím a little suspicious there might be a glitch because the salaries are so unbalanced.

BOS sends Hayward to Indiana.
IND sends TJ Warren and Doug McDermott
https://tradenba.com/trades/vUOCGyiGN

That adds to the team that beat Toronto this year: (1) a 6í8Ē wing who shot 40% from 3 the past two years, plays solid defense; and (2) a bench SF who shoots better than 40% from 3, and is, generally, a smart, efficient offensive player. Oh yes, (3), cuts $15m from our cap sheet. (Like I said, I kind of canít believe that works, and if he had to eat a salary to even it up a little thatís ok as long as we are still dropping a good amount.)

Why Indy does it: Indyís offense can be stagnant. Hayward has the playmaking ability theyíre desperate for, plus heís a hometown boy who should raise interest in the team. The contract is a lot, but itís only steep for one year, and they might get an understanding heíll resign for something more reasonable on his next deal.

That leaves us a *lot* of flexibility in how we address what I see as our other needs. I would try to move up in the draft to get Hayes, Halliburton, or Okungwu, whoever the Cs like best, and use the MLE to fill the biggest remaining need; a ballhandler or big we think we could give some rotation minutes to in the playoffs.

EDIT: Iím definitely not against keeping Hayward, if we could sign him to a reasonable extension - s/thing like 3/60 or 65. But if he wonít, I donít want to lose him for nothing after next year.


TJ Warren gives me Marcus Morris vibes, no thanks. Warren and Morris can get BUCKETS! But Iíd rather clean and solid ball movement. Warren and Morris are like ďgive me the ball and get out my wayĒ type players.  I donít believe the Celtics really need another scorer as we have 2 who need to keep developing. The Celtics desperately need someone who can facilitate the ball and lead the offense. If you are getting rid of Hayward you MUST replace that.

Iím not sure why youíre using the MM comp. Warren averaged 15 shots per game to 13.5 for Gordon, both playing about 33 minutes. And, critically, these werenít forced shots or bad shots: his TS% was an excellent .610 - about 20 points better than Hayward. On a better team, where he knows heís not the lead option (this ainít the Pacers!) he might settle into Gordonís attempt numbers or a bit less heck, if he just takes 2 shots from Marcus wouldnít that be fine? I think so. Heís solid on D - he routinely covered the best opposing wing. Imagine adding that to Brown and Tatum.

Where he trails Gordon is ballhandling and assists. Hayward gives you more there - which is the argument for the trade. That talent isnít fully utilized in Boston with the Js stepping up, and and so trading that ability rebalances the team by allowing us to bring in other assets - solid floor spacing on the starting five *and* the bench, *and* the full MLE to fill another hole.

Another way to think about it is: do we get past Miami last year if we start w the same group that beat Toronto, then add: (1) a year of development for the Js; (2) a veteran 3 and D wing (who shoots 40% from 3); (3) a veteran 40% plus 3-PT bench scorer; (3) whatever you want to bring on for the full MLE (Tristan Thompson? Aaron Baynes? a backup guard you like better than wana?); and (4) most likely, more help from the bench - from at least one of a more seasoned Grant, Timelord, Romeo? Possibly Hayes or Okungwu.

1-3 alone could be huge; 4 is gravy. If we had consistent play while the starters rested, and the starters were fresher in crunch time How much is that worth?.

You just answered why he gives me MM vibes in your own writing. He can only do 1 thing, score... him being in Boston or anywhere else wonít change that, he is who he is.

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2020, 09:04:27 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2020, 09:43:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs

Luckily, Theis and the Celts can handle Embiid with our without Turner.
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2020, 09:44:13 PM »

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs

Luckily, Theis and the Celts can handle Embiid with our without Turner.
Enes Kanter the mighty Embiid stopper
Fire Brad

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2020, 09:52:41 PM »

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs

Luckily, Theis and the Celts can handle Embiid with our without Turner.

Yeah but they couldn't handle Bam Adebayo unfortunately

Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2020, 12:21:27 AM »

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Also on Turner, I keep reading that he canít cover Bam.

In this yearís playoffs when matched up he held Bam to 8.0 points per game on 41.9% shooting and only 1.5 FTAs per game.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612754/matchups/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=OFF_PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to me to be honest, but my concerns about Turner lie elsewhere.

He matches up poorly against Embiid. Nearly a foul a minute of being his direct match-up, Embiid averaged 11.5PPG against Turner despite only being his direct opponent for 4.6MPG: 

https://go.nba.com/8xer

He also gets similarly dominated by Andre Drummond: https://go.nba.com/m7fb

Seems to be poor against the real powerhouse bigs

Luckily, Theis and the Celts can handle Embiid with our without Turner.
Yeah but they couldn't handle Bam Adebayo unfortunately
Because our head coach insisted that we should use centres to defend Bam instead of throwing our 6'6 brickhouse at him.
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Re: Rumor: Pacers interested in Hayward
« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2020, 01:10:21 AM »

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Another approach to Hayward: trade him for a 3 and D wing, bench scoring, and lower salary.

Why? Haywardís best skill is passing/playmaking. Heís underutilized as the Csí 4th option. Another team that needs those skills could give up a solid 3 and D wing who fits well next to Kemba and the Js. (Iíll say minimum 40% from 3). We address our bench scoring issue, *and* we get under the tax and can use the full MLE.

This trade works in the online trade machines, tho Iím a little suspicious there might be a glitch because the salaries are so unbalanced.

BOS sends Hayward to Indiana.
IND sends TJ Warren and Doug McDermott
https://tradenba.com/trades/vUOCGyiGN

That adds to the team that beat Toronto this year: (1) a 6í8Ē wing who shot 40% from 3 the past two years, plays solid defense; and (2) a bench SF who shoots better than 40% from 3, and is, generally, a smart, efficient offensive player. Oh yes, (3), cuts $15m from our cap sheet. (Like I said, I kind of canít believe that works, and if he had to eat a salary to even it up a little thatís ok as long as we are still dropping a good amount.)

Why Indy does it: Indyís offense can be stagnant. Hayward has the playmaking ability theyíre desperate for, plus heís a hometown boy who should raise interest in the team. The contract is a lot, but itís only steep for one year, and they might get an understanding heíll resign for something more reasonable on his next deal.

That leaves us a *lot* of flexibility in how we address what I see as our other needs. I would try to move up in the draft to get Hayes, Halliburton, or Okungwu, whoever the Cs like best, and use the MLE to fill the biggest remaining need; a ballhandler or big we think we could give some rotation minutes to in the playoffs.

EDIT: Iím definitely not against keeping Hayward, if we could sign him to a reasonable extension - s/thing like 3/60 or 65. But if he wonít, I donít want to lose him for nothing after next year.


TJ Warren gives me Marcus Morris vibes, no thanks. Warren and Morris can get BUCKETS! But Iíd rather clean and solid ball movement. Warren and Morris are like ďgive me the ball and get out my wayĒ type players.  I donít believe the Celtics really need another scorer as we have 2 who need to keep developing. The Celtics desperately need someone who can facilitate the ball and lead the offense. If you are getting rid of Hayward you MUST replace that.

Iím not sure why youíre using the MM comp. Warren averaged 15 shots per game to 13.5 for Gordon, both playing about 33 minutes. And, critically, these werenít forced shots or bad shots: his TS% was an excellent .610 - about 20 points better than Hayward. On a better team, where he knows heís not the lead option (this ainít the Pacers!) he might settle into Gordonís attempt numbers or a bit less heck, if he just takes 2 shots from Marcus wouldnít that be fine? I think so. Heís solid on D - he routinely covered the best opposing wing. Imagine adding that to Brown and Tatum.

Where he trails Gordon is ballhandling and assists. Hayward gives you more there - which is the argument for the trade. That talent isnít fully utilized in Boston with the Js stepping up, and and so trading that ability rebalances the team by allowing us to bring in other assets - solid floor spacing on the starting five *and* the bench, *and* the full MLE to fill another hole.

Another way to think about it is: do we get past Miami last year if we start w the same group that beat Toronto, then add: (1) a year of development for the Js; (2) a veteran 3 and D wing (who shoots 40% from 3); (3) a veteran 40% plus 3-PT bench scorer; (3) whatever you want to bring on for the full MLE (Tristan Thompson? Aaron Baynes? a backup guard you like better than wana?); and (4) most likely, more help from the bench - from at least one of a more seasoned Grant, Timelord, Romeo? Possibly Hayes or Okungwu.

1-3 alone could be huge; 4 is gravy. If we had consistent play while the starters rested, and the starters were fresher in crunch time How much is that worth?.

You just answered why he gives me MM vibes in your own writing. He can only do 1 thing, score... him being in Boston or anywhere else wonít change that, he is who he is.

What made Morris a problem, to me, wasnít that he was a scorer. It was that he was a ball stopper who took low-quality shots that other players shouldíve taken instead. A player who shoots about as often as Gordon and hits an excellent %age is, to me, in a different category. Thatís a player who shoots *when he should*.