Hayward Out 4 Weeks (Per Shams)

[PhoSita]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

[gouki88]

Man this place can be negative. People saying we’re toast against Philly (who we’ve beaten with even more undermanned squads), people writing off Hayward’s future, even some saying his skill-set (unique to our team) is redundant? Jeesh.

It really does suck for Hayward. Absolutely cursed. It seems like we’re never able to have all 3 of he, Brown & Smart healthy, sometimes it’s even 2/3 of those are injured. That being said, I really hope we bring him back next season with an extension. 4/75 is perfectly reasonable for me

In a way the level of angst probably speaks to the esteem in which people here hold Gordon, in that his injury is seen as heralding the end of our team as a competitive entity. 

It's more about whether or not Tatum and Brown can be good enough to lead a team to a chip. I think they can be this season, and I think it's a certainty in the future that they will be.

No time like the present to find out

It's really strange. People acting as if Hayward is the key to unlocking our championship potential, then not 2 sentences later stating that they hope we let him walk for free. It's sort of a lose-lose too. If we go deep without Hayward people will say that we don't even need him, so let him walk. If we collapse without him people will say he's too injury-prone to be relied upon, so we should let him walk. Am I missing something here?

I love Hayward, and think it's in our best interest to keep him, but I also think he's our 3rd or 4th best player as it stands. JB seems to have elevated again from March to now, as has JT.

[Rondo9]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Worry about the Raptors later, focus on the Sixers first. You make it sound like they lost Jayson Tatum as much as I like Hayward and feel that he adds a different dimension to the team, they'll should adjust.

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

[hwangjini_1]

Going 6 deep with starting caliber players after you lose a starter is pretty good depth.

After that, you are looking for guys who can significantly change the game in key situations or offer you something the rest of your starters can't. Timelord and Kanter do that just fine.

You normally are only 8 deep in the playoffs anyone. Wanamaker can serve a rotational guy for a while. He's been waiting his entire career for this opportunity.

The best teams can field a 8 or 9 man rotation without having to give significant minutes to guys who are severely flawed / easily exploited.

Teams that have a shot at the title are usually able to play multiple styles, as well, based on personnel.


I mean, look at the Bucks, Clippers, Raptors, or Heat.  All of those teams go 8-10 players deep with useful role players.  You can't tell me the Celts have anything like that.

i see you did not include philly. whew. then maybe we have a chance this round?

[hwangjini_1]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

[Greenality]

I think although a month off is more than we all hoped, it's still not that awful. I stay optimistic.
First and foremost, best wishes and all the luck to Gordy. No fault of his own. I can't imagine how he himself is irritated by this constant setbacks. I mean, he already went through a lot during his Celtics tenure, at last was close to his best self as playoffs started... and this. Hopefully, it will be a very happy next 4 weeks for him and his family)
That said, C's were banged up all season and without Hayward have an overall record of 14 - 6 (last seeding game included)... Simmons is absent for Philadelphia and he's more valuable for their squad. So, just from a materialistic standpoint, it leveled up a bit. I think C's still have all the chances here. What we definitely can't afford is to lose someone else from our main core.
Raptors seem like a different animal, but as the mantra goes: it's all step by step.

[Csfan1984]

After seeing Magic take game one from Bucks I have hope C's can hold things down till the finals.

[ozgod]

Man this place can be negative. People saying we’re toast against Philly (who we’ve beaten with even more undermanned squads), people writing off Hayward’s future, even some saying his skill-set (unique to our team) is redundant? Jeesh.

It really does suck for Hayward. Absolutely cursed. It seems like we’re never able to have all 3 of he, Brown & Smart healthy, sometimes it’s even 2/3 of those are injured. That being said, I really hope we bring him back next season with an extension. 4/75 is perfectly reasonable for me

In a way the level of angst probably speaks to the esteem in which people here hold Gordon, in that his injury is seen as heralding the end of our team as a competitive entity. 

It's more about whether or not Tatum and Brown can be good enough to lead a team to a chip. I think they can be this season, and I think it's a certainty in the future that they will be.

No time like the present to find out

It's really strange. People acting as if Hayward is the key to unlocking our championship potential, then not 2 sentences later stating that they hope we let him walk for free. It's sort of a lose-lose too. If we go deep without Hayward people will say that we don't even need him, so let him walk. If we collapse without him people will say he's too injury-prone to be relied upon, so we should let him walk. Am I missing something here?

I love Hayward, and think it's in our best interest to keep him, but I also think he's our 3rd or 4th best player as it stands. JB seems to have elevated again from March to now, as has JT.

I think people are just upset 

[keevsnick]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

[footey]

If we’re fortunate to make conf finals, I see Hayward return off the bench for balance of playoffs, particularly if we have adjusted and are playing well. Which would have to be the case were we to make it that far.

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

[Rondo9]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

That really sounds like the grass is greener scenario.

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

That really sounds like the grass is greener scenario.

Entirely. If those guys played for us they'd be torn apart. Hell, Kelly Olynyk did play for us and he was torn apart, routinely