Hayward Out 4 Weeks (Per Shams)

[footey]

Who fills Hayward roster spot? Can we make Tacko Fall available? Is he allowed to play in playoffs? Against Sixers might be an option to consider. He could handle Embiid defensively one on one in the post. Or maybe Vinnie who also matches Embiid in size. Alternatively consider Waters although I think he’d really struggle against Sixer length. Wonder what can/will be done. 

[Green-18]

Hayward really can't catch a break.  His loss will obviously be magnified the deeper this playoff run goes.

Looking towards the future, is it time for Danny/Brad to have a discussion about changing Haywards role before he makes the decision on his player option? I think it would be smart for the team to lay out a bench/6th man role for next season.  Through no fault of his own, the Celtics can't bank on Hayward making it through an entire season.

Barring a major change to the roster, I'd make Marcus Smart a permanent starter.  More importantly, I'd set an expectation that Gordon might not be on the court to close out the majority of games.  Obviously you make adjustment if he has the hot hand.

I think that Hayward is better than Theis. It is not close, even with Daniel playing great by his measures.

I'm confused because I didn't mention Theis in my post.  Hayward is obviously a much better player.  My main point is that it would be smart for the Celtics to transition Hayward's role next season, assuming he doesn't opt out and sign elsewhere.  25-30 MPG off the bench seems to make sense.

To quote Bill Belichick, dependability is more important than ability.  I think the Celtics need to adapt their approach to Gordon with the assumption that he will miss a large chunk of games.

[keevsnick]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

Condescension is after all the mark of one confident in their assessments!

The smiley face was meant to convey a tongue in cheek nature to my response. In reality analysis of bench players is very subjective, so to each his own.

But if the argument is "If all these bench guys on teams with supposedly superior benches are no better than ours then why does does everybody think our bench is bad?" then there are really only two answers:

A) our bench actually is good.
B) the guys you cite are actually better than you think.

I mean I'm pretty sure its not A given that the C's literally had among the lowest bench production in the entire league this year. Just hoping they can step up in the playoffs.

My bad for lashing out, tend to only see smileys used in a very condescending manner, lol.

I didn’t mean to convey that all those guys are the equal of ours - more that Enes & Wanamaker, and Timelord on some occasions, is definitely closer to the level of those role players than people here are making them out to be. The difference between the Clippers edition of Jackson & Wanamaker is negligible - Jackson might be more likely to win a game, but he’s also more likely to lose one. Kanter & Marvin Williams are certainly equals, if the edge doesn’t go to Kanter.

I just think because they’re our players they get judged far more harshly than if they were on the opposition

Maybe, fans especially Celtics fans CAN be over critical especially on nights the bench doesn't step up. But I'm not really basing my opinion on what this forum thinks, my impression is that even among national media types and analyst the bench is considered a clear weakness. I try to give that some credence given that every fan base has biases when analyzing their own players (remember when Lakers fans thought Kuzma>Tatum?)

But in any event we'll see, it will be exciting to see who steps up and how Brad Stevens manages things.

[footey]

To me, a terrible contract is one like Mark Blount, who the moment he signs it, he just mails it in, and collects coupons.  That is a regrettable contract.  But fluke injuries are unpredicatable, out of a player's control, and out of the control of management.

I think you're taking it as a personal indictment of Hayward.

That's not what I'm saying at all.  It's not his fault and it doesn't mean he didn't hold up his end of the bargain or something.

It just means that what the team (and we as fans) have gotten out of signing Hayward is so much less than what we expected at the time.


I know that it's a huge disappointment for Hayward, just as it is for the team and for us fans.

I don't think it's disrespectful to talk about it in those terms.  I would feel differently if this were a situation where the nature of the injury was more severe / scary.  E.g. Jeff Green heart issue or Gordon's first ankle injury.

Yeah, I was pretty upset for Gordon, and emotion did enter into my reaction.  We all react in our own way to these things. The last thing I was thinking was, what a bad contract that turned out to be.  Of course wearing my GM cap, I can acknowledge we got far less than what was hoped for when we signed him because of the series of injuries he has sustained since signing with us.

[footey]

If Gordon really did suffer a grade 3 ankle sprain, that is a complete tear of the ligaments.  Fully healing required is several months, not the 4 weeks announced by the Celtics.

4 weeks is more in line with a grade 2 sprain, involving a partial tear. (Grade 1 is no tear at all).

See link below:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/recovering_from_an_ankle_sprain

[Androslav]

Hayward really can't catch a break.  His loss will obviously be magnified the deeper this playoff run goes.

Looking towards the future, is it time for Danny/Brad to have a discussion about changing Haywards role before he makes the decision on his player option? I think it would be smart for the team to lay out a bench/6th man role for next season.  Through no fault of his own, the Celtics can't bank on Hayward making it through an entire season.

Barring a major change to the roster, I'd make Marcus Smart a permanent starter.  More importantly, I'd set an expectation that Gordon might not be on the court to close out the majority of games.  Obviously you make adjustment if he has the hot hand.

I think that Hayward is better than Theis. It is not close, even with Daniel playing great by his measures.

I'm confused because I didn't mention Theis in my post.  Hayward is obviously a much better player.  My main point is that it would be smart for the Celtics to transition Hayward's role next season, assuming he doesn't opt out and sign elsewhere.  25-30 MPG off the bench seems to make sense.

To quote Bill Belichick, dependability is more important than ability.  I think the Celtics need to adapt their approach to Gordon with the assumption that he will miss a large chunk of games.

Now, with the current information, of course we have to adapt.

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

Condescension is after all the mark of one confident in their assessments!

The smiley face was meant to convey a tongue in cheek nature to my response. In reality analysis of bench players is very subjective, so to each his own.

But if the argument is "If all these bench guys on teams with supposedly superior benches are no better than ours then why does does everybody think our bench is bad?" then there are really only two answers:

A) our bench actually is good.
B) the guys you cite are actually better than you think.

I mean I'm pretty sure its not A given that the C's literally had among the lowest bench production in the entire league this year. Just hoping they can step up in the playoffs.

My bad for lashing out, tend to only see smileys used in a very condescending manner, lol.

I didn’t mean to convey that all those guys are the equal of ours - more that Enes & Wanamaker, and Timelord on some occasions, is definitely closer to the level of those role players than people here are making them out to be. The difference between the Clippers edition of Jackson & Wanamaker is negligible - Jackson might be more likely to win a game, but he’s also more likely to lose one. Kanter & Marvin Williams are certainly equals, if the edge doesn’t go to Kanter.

I just think because they’re our players they get judged far more harshly than if they were on the opposition

Maybe, fans especially Celtics fans CAN be over critical especially on nights the bench doesn't step up. But I'm not really basing my opinion on what this forum thinks, my impression is that even among national media types and analyst the bench is considered a clear weakness. I try to give that some credence given that every fan base has biases when analyzing their own players (remember when Lakers fans thought Kuzma>Tatum?)

But in any event we'll see, it will be exciting to see who steps up and how Brad Stevens manages things.

Lol at Kuzma. That one still makes me chuckle. He reminds me of Jeff Green but worse on defence.

Maybe Javonte Green is this years Gerald Green!

[BitterJim]

Now would be a good time for that baby

If Robyn's doctor is a Celtics' fan, he might just recommend inducing labor this week

She's back in Indy, the girls go to school there. So I'd guess the doctor is a pacers fan he'll probably delay things as long as possible.

Danny should intervene and tell the doctor if he lets it happen soon, he'll send the Pacers a future 1st rounder for free 

I guess Danny reads this forum

https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyBostonSports/status/1296159795079241729?s=19

[Atzar]

Is inducing labor safe?  Serious question.  I was under the impression that induced labor can lead to some complications, like the need for a C-section and increased risk of infection/health problems for the newborn. 

[Neurotic Guy]

Is inducing labor safe?  Serious question.  I was under the impression that induced labor can lead to some complications, like the need for a C-section and increased risk of infection/health problems for the newborn.

Our first daughter was induced -- but that was due to my wife's water breaking and not spontaneously going into labor.  We waited the night with the idea that if she didn't go into labor, the Dr. would induce in the AM. And he did.  It went fine.  Not sure what the risks are but I am sure they won't do it unless it is medically necessary.

[jambr380]

I guess Danny reads this forum

https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyBostonSports/status/1296159795079241729?s=19

That is seriously funny. I mean, we all want it to happen, but did anybody think Ainge would actually be 'negotiating' with Robyn about inducing labor? Hopefully he can close the deal, we can get by Toronto, and then have a healthy Hayward as we advance through the playoffs!

[hwangjini_1]

I guess Danny reads this forum

https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyBostonSports/status/1296159795079241729?s=19

That is seriously funny. I mean, we all want it to happen, but did anybody think Ainge would actually be 'negotiating' with Robyn about inducing labor? Hopefully he can close the deal, we can get by Toronto, and then have a healthy Hayward as we advance through the playoffs!

let's face it, ainge, like red, is shameless when it comes to the celtics. 

[ozgod]

It's possible we may have seen Gordon's last game in Green, if he's unable to make it back and chooses not to opt-in after the end of the season. 

[Birdman]

It's possible we may have seen Gordon's last game in Green, if he's unable to make it back and chooses not to opt-in after the end of the season. 

He is not going to opt out with that big money left..

[cman88]

It's possible we may have seen Gordon's last game in Green, if he's unable to make it back and chooses not to opt-in after the end of the season. 

he is 100% opting in. doesnt he stand to make something like 34million$ next year? No team is offering him that.