Hayward Out 4 Weeks (Per Shams)

[keevsnick]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

Condescension is after all the mark of one confident in their assessments!

[keevsnick]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

Condescension is after all the mark of one confident in their assessments!

The smiley face was meant to convey a tongue in cheek nature to my response. In reality analysis of bench players is very subjective, so to each his own.

But if the argument is "If all these bench guys on teams with supposedly superior benches are no better than ours then why does does everybody think our bench is bad?" then there are really only two answers:

A) our bench actually is good.
B) the guys you cite are actually better than you think.

I mean I'm pretty sure its not A given that the C's literally had among the lowest bench production in the entire league this year. Just hoping they can step up in the playoffs.

[Rikibellevie]

I have one question (sorry if someone has already answered it).

If/when GH will opt in for his last year contract, can we already sign the extension for 2021-22 and so on ? Or have we to wait few month before negotiating with him ? Because we don't have interest to dilluate next year overpay in his next contract, as our salaries will continue to grow...

[gouki88]

I think you are underestimating the ability it takes to be a positive in a playoff series. Against the sixers it may not, probably wont matter since they are so dyssfunctional right now. But in a tough playoff series weakness get exposes. Kanters lack of ability to defend in space, Romeo's complete lack of shooting, RWIII's fouling and defensive mistakes. Ojeles lack of ability to do anything off the dribble, GW lack of size and rebounding. The Celtics have a lot of guys who do one or two things well, then have serious weaknesses. Those guys tend to get played off the floor in later round playoff series.

Exactly.

Smart opponents -- which definitely includes the Raptors even if it doesn't include the Sixers -- can and will exploit those flaws to the point that certain players become unplayable.


It's true that Kanter was the starting center for a playoff team last year.  Then the Blazers faced an opponent in the WCF that knew how to exploit Kanter, and his weaknesses became a huge problem.

Why does this not happen to opponents with similarly unplayable players? Why is this only a problem the Celtics seem to be facing?

because this is celtics strong. it is who we are and it is what we do. 

Yeah, honestly, lol.

Bucks -> Marvin Williams, RoLo & Sterling Brown. All very limited players.

Clips -> Reggie Jackson and JaMychal Green are both very limited players.

Heat -> Iggy, Olynyk & Derrick Jones are all very limited.

The Raps don't really fit into the description, but they have the most flawed star power out of any contending team.

Almost all those guys are at least arguably better than the Celtics bench players. JaMychael, Olynyk, Williams are all good shooters who hold up well positionally defensively. Iggy is a good defender, passer, cutter. Derrick Jones Junior is incredibly athletic and great at finishing inside. Any one of thes guys would be the Celtics 7th man right now.

Robin Lopez and Sterling brown meanwhile dont actually play all that much for Mil, Brown was a DNP and Lopez played 2 minutes today. So ya, they are limited, and as a result they dont play in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson meanwhile played today, but only because Beverley is still working himself back into playing shape and only went 20 minutes in game one. But even he shoots 39 from 3 on volume this year with a 2.5 to 1 A:T ratio and decent shot creation, and he's like the 9th man.

So ya, again the theme here is guys who generally hold up on one end while giving you one (or more) plus skills on the other. Its not entirely clear ANY of the Celtics reserves outside of Smart do that. All the guys you listed are veterans with much longer track records as well then RWIII, GW, Semi, Langford. Wanamaker kind of fits that bill.

And again, I'm not saying the C's bench is doomed to failure. A lot of these guys are young, maybe somebody steps up. Totally possible. Just have to see it.

Simply I disagree on your talent assessment on almost all of those guys

Thats just another way of saying you're bad at player assessment

Condescension is after all the mark of one confident in their assessments!

The smiley face was meant to convey a tongue in cheek nature to my response. In reality analysis of bench players is very subjective, so to each his own.

But if the argument is "If all these bench guys on teams with supposedly superior benches are no better than ours then why does does everybody think our bench is bad?" then there are really only two answers:

A) our bench actually is good.
B) the guys you cite are actually better than you think.

I mean I'm pretty sure its not A given that the C's literally had among the lowest bench production in the entire league this year. Just hoping they can step up in the playoffs.

My bad for lashing out, tend to only see smileys used in a very condescending manner, lol.

I didn’t mean to convey that all those guys are the equal of ours - more that Enes & Wanamaker, and Timelord on some occasions, is definitely closer to the level of those role players than people here are making them out to be. The difference between the Clippers edition of Jackson & Wanamaker is negligible - Jackson might be more likely to win a game, but he’s also more likely to lose one. Kanter & Marvin Williams are certainly equals, if the edge doesn’t go to Kanter.

I just think because they’re our players they get judged far more harshly than if they were on the opposition

[greenhead85]

When we lost Hayward a few years back, Tatum's game success came up.
Now that Hayward is injured again, will Langford follow a similar path? I hope so.
I'm looking for more PT of him and Ojeleye.

[Androslav]

This news is really sad. He is probably out till the next year.

[rollie mass]

I am actually saddened over Haywards injury all the little things he does and how he was able to fit into the flow and make players better.. His mid range deadly, his three point shooting always a threat and another heady player on defence.
Just as we are rounding into shape a rolled ankle goes to grade three .

[Csfan1984]

Haven't read all the comments but this could be a blessing. Say C's hold it down with Smart in and Hayward comes back and takes the lead role off the bench. Doesn't that finally give the bench some firepower and balance? Bench options then become,
Guard / Ball handler =Wanna
Wing / scorer= Hayward
Big / half court anchor=Kanter

Player nine is still a question but it always was. But as I said that bench now looks balanced.
 

[Androslav]

Haven't read all the comments but this could be a blessing. Say C's hold it down with Smart in and Hayward comes back and takes the lead role off the bench. Doesn't that finally give the bench some firepower and balance? Bench options then become,
Guard / Ball handler =Wanna
Wing / scorer= Hayward
Big / half court anchor=Kanter

Player nine is still a question but it always was. But as I said that bench now looks balanced.

I don't think he will be able to make it back while we are still in this race.

[Vermont Green]

There was a debate above about our bench vs. everyone else.  I think our bench was fine but now that we have lost Hayward, someone from the bench now needs to start and play more minutes so our bench is not as good anymore.

The player that comes off the bench so to speak is Smart.  That leaves us Wannamaker (who is fine as the 4th guard but less so as the 3rd guard) Kanter, GWill, RWill, Ojeleye.

Yeah, this definitely hurts our depth.  I don't think our bench will hurt us or be a problem but it is much more vulnerable now than when we have Hayward.

[gouki88]

Haven't read all the comments but this could be a blessing. Say C's hold it down with Smart in and Hayward comes back and takes the lead role off the bench. Doesn't that finally give the bench some firepower and balance? Bench options then become,
Guard / Ball handler =Wanna
Wing / scorer= Hayward
Big / half court anchor=Kanter

Player nine is still a question but it always was. But as I said that bench now looks balanced.

I don't think he will be able to make it back while we are still in this race.

Hayward will return for Finals push!

[Androslav]

Haven't read all the comments but this could be a blessing. Say C's hold it down with Smart in and Hayward comes back and takes the lead role off the bench. Doesn't that finally give the bench some firepower and balance? Bench options then become,
Guard / Ball handler =Wanna
Wing / scorer= Hayward
Big / half court anchor=Kanter

Player nine is still a question but it always was. But as I said that bench now looks balanced.

I don't think he will be able to make it back while we are still in this race.

Hayward will return for Finals push!

From my ear to gods mouth!

[Green-18]

Hayward really can't catch a break.  His loss will obviously be magnified the deeper this playoff run goes.

Looking towards the future, is it time for Danny/Brad to have a discussion about changing Haywards role before he makes the decision on his player option? I think it would be smart for the team to lay out a bench/6th man role for next season.  Through no fault of his own, the Celtics can't bank on Hayward making it through an entire season.

Barring a major change to the roster, I'd make Marcus Smart a permanent starter.  More importantly, I'd set an expectation that Gordon might not be on the court to close out the majority of games.  Obviously you make adjustment if he has the hot hand.

[Androslav]

Hayward really can't catch a break.  His loss will obviously be magnified the deeper this playoff run goes.

Looking towards the future, is it time for Danny/Brad to have a discussion about changing Haywards role before he makes the decision on his player option? I think it would be smart for the team to lay out a bench/6th man role for next season.  Through no fault of his own, the Celtics can't bank on Hayward making it through an entire season.

Barring a major change to the roster, I'd make Marcus Smart a permanent starter.  More importantly, I'd set an expectation that Gordon might not be on the court to close out the majority of games.  Obviously you make adjustment if he has the hot hand.

I think that Hayward is better than Theis. It is not close, even with Daniel playing great by his measures.