2019 Historical Draft Thread(TIME TO REVEAL THE WINNER!!!)

[gouki88]

Think we can cool it with the back and forth here for a while. The thread will be taken over otherwise.

[Silky]

I think ya’ll are sleeping on Detroit! If Zo is starting, all 5 starters have strong defensive chops, versatile offense and are no nonsense no drama players that let their game speak for themselves. Silent killers. The bench sports some scoring pizzaz and a little finger wagging defense to give a jolt when needed. Detroit screams TEAM the most of all the teams, very well balanced. Not just a collection of talent.

Spurs raise an eyebrow to this.

You want defense? I have 2 DPOYs, a 9 time all defensive first team, a 6 time all defensive first team (did have the award during daves first few years) and Butler, one of the best lebron stoppers in the game today, in fact one of the best wing defenders in the league today....he is my worst starting defender of the lot.

My guys are absolutely a team, and my bench is starting to become a massive mismatch potential. I dont see any bench defender right now that can slow Yao.none. I dont see any bench PG that can slow Penny. I dont see many bench sfs that can slow prime season Hedo. My bench is going to force other teams to make adjustments, and my starters will make every team have the hardest time offensively, yet still will put up points in bunches.

Hehe...it’s a good mix, one of my favorites in the West but not as complete/well rounded as Detroit right now.

I do love ur first 3 picks, Kobe, Hakeem and Payton, their defense is stellar plus excellent offensive acumen but don’t know who your PF is and I’m not sold on Butler as a Historic player.
Love the versatility and Talent of Penny on your bench. And Yao is significant. But you really gotta sell me on Hedo, he is kind of a one hit wonder. That conference title w that center and other sharp shooting perimeter PF is kind of an outlier.

for Hedu it is the one season. that is all that matters lol.

And during that season he was a big playmaker, clutch shooter, and he was really special

I get that you pick a single season for a given player but it’s still a historic draft. I think a players place in history matters regardless of the single season. Plus was that one season for Hedo historically great relative to other players historically great seasons or just historically great for him?

I do absolutely love your core trio. The Glove was one of my childhood favorites, and was so psyched on the Dreams championships(absolutely loved watching him juke Shaq out of his shorts) and The Mamba....I hate him but he is incredible. Good fits together. I’m just not sold on some of your other pieces.

But the rules of the game are  season, and 1 season only to base the decisions on.

And that 1 season of Hedu was all time.

I assume the one season of Hedo you're using is '07-'08? Not sure I'd be able to classify him as ever having an all-time type season really. He was definitely solid, but his only accolades are a rookie team and a MIP

He was unstoppable that season and was doing things no one saw before

People forget how great he was that season

[greenrunsdeep41]

I think ya’ll are sleeping on Detroit! If Zo is starting, all 5 starters have strong defensive chops, versatile offense and are no nonsense no drama players that let their game speak for themselves. Silent killers. The bench sports some scoring pizzaz and a little finger wagging defense to give a jolt when needed. Detroit screams TEAM the most of all the teams, very well balanced. Not just a collection of talent.

Spurs raise an eyebrow to this.

You want defense? I have 2 DPOYs, a 9 time all defensive first team, a 6 time all defensive first team (did have the award during daves first few years) and Butler, one of the best lebron stoppers in the game today, in fact one of the best wing defenders in the league today....he is my worst starting defender of the lot.

My guys are absolutely a team, and my bench is starting to become a massive mismatch potential. I dont see any bench defender right now that can slow Yao.none. I dont see any bench PG that can slow Penny. I dont see many bench sfs that can slow prime season Hedo. My bench is going to force other teams to make adjustments, and my starters will make every team have the hardest time offensively, yet still will put up points in bunches.

Hehe...it’s a good mix, one of my favorites in the West but not as complete/well rounded as Detroit right now.

I do love ur first 3 picks, Kobe, Hakeem and Payton, their defense is stellar plus excellent offensive acumen but don’t know who your PF is and I’m not sold on Butler as a Historic player.
Love the versatility and Talent of Penny on your bench. And Yao is significant. But you really gotta sell me on Hedo, he is kind of a one hit wonder. That conference title w that center and other sharp shooting perimeter PF is kind of an outlier.

for Hedu it is the one season. that is all that matters lol.

And during that season he was a big playmaker, clutch shooter, and he was really special

I get that you pick a single season for a given player but it’s still a historic draft. I think a players place in history matters regardless of the single season. Plus was that one season for Hedo historically great relative to other players historically great seasons or just historically great for him?

I do absolutely love your core trio. The Glove was one of my childhood favorites, and was so psyched on the Dreams championships(absolutely loved watching him juke Shaq out of his shorts) and The Mamba....I hate him but he is incredible. Good fits together. I’m just not sold on some of your other pieces.

But the rules of the game are  season, and 1 season only to base the decisions on.

And that 1 season of Hedu was all time.

I assume the one season of Hedo you're using is '07-'08? Not sure I'd be able to classify him as ever having an all-time type season really. He was definitely solid, but his only accolades are a rookie team and a MIP

He was unstoppable that season and was doing things no one saw before

People forget how great he was that season

Dude, stop it. Lol.

[GreenFaith1819]

Just at a casual glance, the Lakers and Mavericks are my two favorite teams.  That Kareem-Davis frontcourt is especially scary.

Bird-Pierce is easily my favorite duo, though.

I love Kareem - he was my first pick in the 2011 Hist. Draft.

But Shaq outweighs him by 100 pounds and ORL Shaq is extremely athletic...and Davis doesn't want any of Shaq down low, either.

And Nate Thurmond is one of the few Bigs to have blocked Kareem's skyhook.

Don't get me wrong, I love Shaq.  Shaq at his most dominant was one of the 5 most unguardable players ever.

But so was Kareem.  They are probably a wash.  The difference is Davis will eat up Webber.

The ONLY Big that can matchup physically with Shaq is Wilt. Shaq will simply back Kareem down and either foul him out or put him on his behind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vma7PlO6kFI

Kareem isn't much bigger than Dikembe.

Double Shaq? He will put his fabulous passing skills on display and dish it to a waiting Jerry West, Manu or PG13.

Davis? I don't believe Anthony Davis has faced ANYONE like Chris Webber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXzfjq2Dhnc

Check around the 20sec point of the video...Chris Webber has none other than a certain Prime Big (don't want to give out his name) at the top of the key, ball-fakes him and simply drives around him and slams it.

Chris Webber would make AD work. And if Shaq isn't fleet of feet for AD then Nate Thurmond certainly is.

both Hakeem and certainly Yao can withstand shaqs attack.

and both have

And vice versa.

And Chris Webber will pull Yao out to the perimeter, head fake and go around him.

Yao wont be guarding webber, Yao will be guarding the paint.

Then Chris will be more than happy to pop jumpers all day long. Once Yao gets tired of it and tries to come out on him, then Webber will drive right by him.

If Yao reaches, then Chris teaches.

Is webber going to be your center?

If so then i will just play my bench in a zone defense and continually spam yao postups offensively

In TODAY's NBA Chris Webber could most definitely play a Stretch Five. I could even play Bobby Jones at either the 3 or 4 - being how he was athletic, fast and wiry.

By the time Yao took several seconds to wind up his shot he'd be doubled and turn it over. Or Bobby Jones could weak side block it. He was certainly all over the place back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NxCr-3L8J4

If Yao proved to be troublesome then I'd stick Big Nate on him.

[GreenFaith1819]

Think we can cool it with the back and forth here for a while. The thread will be taken over otherwise.

I thought we we just defending our lineups.

I'm done for the night then.

[gouki88]

Think we can cool it with the back and forth here for a while. The thread will be taken over otherwise.

I thought we we just defending our lineups.

I'm done for the night then.

I think it goes past defending your lineups when the "debate" goes on for 3 or so pages

[Somebody]

Really happy with getting Moncrief and Lucas.

I think Moncrief is one of the most ideal guys to pair with Tiny off the bench. One of the best guard defenders of all-time, and not at all a slouch on offence. He was also very efficient for a small guard.

Lucas is quite a good get for my bench as well, IMO. At his best he was a 20/20 threat nightly with 3-4 assists a game, and even got up to the mid-50's in terms of FG%.

Interested in seeing how people think my team is looking. It will roll as follows:

Jason Kidd / Tiny Archibald
Paul Pierce / Sidney Moncrief
Larry Bird
Karl Malone / Jerry Lucas
Patrick Ewing

Would honestly like a bit more spacing and a C whose offensive profile isn't like Ewing's (strong inside scoring but weak creation and passing).

[GreenFaith1819]

Think we can cool it with the back and forth here for a while. The thread will be taken over otherwise.

I thought we we just defending our lineups.

I'm done for the night then.

I think it goes past defending your lineups when the "debate" goes on for 3 or so pages

No worries.

Silence can oftentimes be construed as complacency.

[Who]

Really happy with getting Moncrief and Lucas.

I think Moncrief is one of the most ideal guys to pair with Tiny off the bench. One of the best guard defenders of all-time, and not at all a slouch on offence. He was also very efficient for a small guard.

Lucas is quite a good get for my bench as well, IMO. At his best he was a 20/20 threat nightly with 3-4 assists a game, and even got up to the mid-50's in terms of FG%.

Interested in seeing how people think my team is looking. It will roll as follows:

Jason Kidd / Tiny Archibald
Paul Pierce / Sidney Moncrief
Larry Bird
Karl Malone / Jerry Lucas
Patrick Ewing

I am not much of a fan of Jerry Lucas (reminds me of a better Troy Murphy), but that said, dude would be dropping major 3s in today's league. He is far and away the 2nd best outside shooting big man selected after Dirk. He will create loads of space for your other scorers on offense. And he will get a boost in terms of his own scoring efficiency in today's league vs the time he played because of the 3 point line.

Loved the Sidney Moncrief pickup. Absolutely perfect for your team. Gosh, Moncrief and Pierce would be a phenomenal duo together. Oh my god, you could go Bird at PF alongside those two if you ever want a small ball lineup. Or Tiny at PG with Kidd at SG next to Pierce (SF) and Bird (PF). Even more quickness, ball-handling and dribble penetration.

Man, that team is versatile. The big lineups are lethal. The small lineups are lethal. Defense. Passing. Shooting. Rebounding. Fantastic team.

[Who]

2019 Historical Draft: Boston Celtics

C:  David Robinson
PF: LeBron James, Bob McAdoo
SF: Scottie Pippen, Rick Barry
SG: Mitch Richmond, Allen Iverson
PG: Chauncey Billups


Updated Celtics after Round 8. Understand the problem people had with LBJ at the 1, and I was really excited to get a great 3 and D guy and champion in Billups.

I got LeBron with a fantastic defense anchor at Center, one of the best defensive wings and proven sidekick in Pippen, and two great shooters starting.

I like that a lot better. The pieces fit together better.

My first reaction was LeBron is going to cause loads of matchup problems. My own team, Dirk Nowitzki at PF, I think your squad is going to be able to run him off the floor. Might be able to put him on Pippen (who despite having enormous advantage in quickness was not good at consistently exploiting mismatches) but that is a big maybe. Most likely, I cannot and I have to go small with Grant Hill at PF.

I thought that would be the same situation for other teams but teams have gotten more defensive quickness and versatility at PF than I had realized. DeBusschere, Rodman, Giannis can all matchup comfortably. McHale, Barkley, Hayes, KG, Anthony Davis could all defend Pippen adequately to very well -- and cause more matchup issues for your team on the other end (with their superior size). Karl Malone could probably hide on Pippen. Young Karl certainly could. 97 or 98 Karl, tougher for him.

Miami is the other team, like myself, that would have troubles matching up. Nate Thurmond would be too slow. Webber would have some troubles but you might be able to keep him on Pippen.

--------------------

I just want to take a moment to commend everyone on how good the PF defense is (unlike myself with Dirk). Much better than I had expected in terms of quickness and versatility and being able to matchup against quicker players.

League wide everyone just did a great job! (unlike myself!)

-------------------

This is one of the downsides of Pippen. His scoring.

He wasn't very good at exploiting mismatches. He didn't punish that 6-3/6-4 SG from Utah in the Finals who Pip clearly could have killed in the post (he did it a little but not enough to force Utah's hand). He didn't punish that slow footed 6-10 SF from Seattle who Pip clearly have blown past off the dribble whenever he wanted.

Pippen didn't have the right mentality as a scorer which is why he didn't increase his scoring much after MJ left (21, 18.6 two years before MJ, 22 without MJ, 21.4 mostly without MJ, 19.4 20 with MJ).

He was the sort of player who liked to run the offense and make the  correct play. Rather than a killer who sought out weaknesses and attacked them mercilessly.

-------------------

It is one of the reasons I like Pippen at PG because you can now force your opponent's PF to defend a scorer at SF. Tougher matchup for them. And you have decision about where do they hide their PG defensively. Tougher defensive questions all round.

-------------------

This is where Rick Barry would be the ideal option because he has that scoring ability. He would kill people like Barkley and Karl Malone.

However, then you have the fit issue (one ball between Barry, LeBron at Chauncey) and whether Barry would cause disharmony within your locker room. I am not sure where others stand on this. It would be interesting to hear from other people ...

Because in terms of skill, Barry is clearly the right choice at SF for the rest of your team. They need that threat (of Barry's scoring) to truly break other team's defensive structures. Force them to matchup against you. Force them away from their super-talented big lineups.

----------------------------

Eye balling it, I like this small ball lineup a lot better than the previous bigger lineup.

However, looking at how well teams in this Historical League can matchup against the small ball lineup with Pippen at SF (which I believe they can do much more effectively than I had expected), I am not sure this team gives you a significantly better chance of winning than staying big with McAdoo and allowing LeBron to play his natural position.

Chauncey, Mitch, Bron, McAdoo, D-Robinson
Chauncey, Mitch, Pip, Bron, D-Robinson
Chauncey, Pip, Bron, McAdoo, D-Robinson
Pip, Mitch, Bron, McAdoo, D-Robinson
Chauncey, Mitch, Barry, Bron, D-Robinson

A lot of different ways you can go.

My two favourites are the non-Pippen lineups - but I might be alone in that. Very interested to hear from others. I like the spacing Chauncey and Mitch provide in the backcourt in a bigger lineup over the big lineup with Pippen. Gives LeBron more room to work his magic.

This is one of the most interesting teams in terms of lineup decisions because of how many different ways they can lineup.

[Somebody]

2019 Historical Draft: Boston Celtics

C:  David Robinson
PF: LeBron James, Bob McAdoo
SF: Scottie Pippen, Rick Barry
SG: Mitch Richmond, Allen Iverson
PG: Chauncey Billups


Updated Celtics after Round 8. Understand the problem people had with LBJ at the 1, and I was really excited to get a great 3 and D guy and champion in Billups.

I got LeBron with a fantastic defense anchor at Center, one of the best defensive wings and proven sidekick in Pippen, and two great shooters starting.

I like that a lot better. The pieces fit together better.

My first reaction was LeBron is going to cause loads of matchup problems. My own team, Dirk Nowitzki at PF, I think your squad is going to be able to run him off the floor. Might be able to put him on Pippen (who despite having enormous advantage in quickness was not good at consistently exploiting mismatches) but that is a big maybe. Most likely, I cannot and I have to go small with Grant Hill at PF.

I thought that would be the same situation for other teams but teams have gotten more defensive quickness and versatility at PF than I had realized. DeBusschere, Rodman, Giannis can all matchup comfortably. McHale, Barkley, Hayes, KG, Anthony Davis could all defend Pippen adequately to very well -- and cause more matchup issues for your team on the other end (with their superior size). Karl Malone could probably hide on Pippen. Young Karl certainly could. 97 or 98 Karl, tougher for him.

Miami is the other team, like myself, that would have troubles matching up. Nate Thurmond would be too slow. Webber would have some troubles but you might be able to keep him on Pippen.

--------------------

I just want to take a moment to commend everyone on how good the PF defense is (unlike myself with Dirk). Much better than I had expected in terms of quickness and versatility and being able to matchup against quicker players.

League wide everyone just did a great job! (unlike myself!)

-------------------

This is one of the downsides of Pippen. His scoring.

He wasn't very good at exploiting mismatches. He didn't punish that 6-3/6-4 SG from Utah in the Finals who Pip clearly could have killed in the post (he did it a little but not enough to force Utah's hand). He didn't punish that slow footed 6-10 SF from Seattle who Pip clearly have blown past off the dribble whenever he wanted.

Pippen didn't have the right mentality as a scorer which is why he didn't increase his scoring much after MJ left (21, 18.6 two years before MJ, 22 without MJ, 21.4 mostly without MJ, 19.4 20 with MJ).

He was the sort of player who liked to run the offense and make the  correct play. Rather than a killer who sought out weaknesses and attacked them mercilessly.

-------------------

It is one of the reasons I like Pippen at PG because you can now force your opponent's PF to defend a scorer at SF. Tougher matchup for them. And you have decision about where do they hide their PG defensively. Tougher defensive questions all round.

-------------------

This is where Rick Barry would be the ideal option because he has that scoring ability. He would kill people like Barkley and Karl Malone.

However, then you have the fit issue (one ball between Barry, LeBron at Chauncey) and whether Barry would cause disharmony within your locker room. I am not sure where others stand on this. It would be interesting to hear from other people ...

Because in terms of skill, Barry is clearly the right choice at SF for the rest of your team. They need that threat (of Barry's scoring) to truly break other team's defensive structures. Force them to matchup against you. Force them away from their super-talented big lineups.

I actually made it a point to shore up on forward defense. As Roy, Moranis and many others have said, the key to winning this is to exploit mismatches and/or minimise the damage they bring. I know Green's value isn't as high in this exercise compared to the modern game irl, but he could still defend the great scoring 4s of the league while bodying up some of the bulkier all time 3s. And the guy he's backing up can speak for himself with the body of work he has lol.

As for the Celtics, I think that the Bron/Admiral combo will keep them afloat against any team in this game. They just need to cobble a good supporting cast together to win this lol.

[Who]

As for the Celtics, I think that the Bron/Admiral combo will keep them afloat against any team in this game. They just need to cobble a good supporting cast together to win this lol.

Yeah, those two are going to do so much of the heavy lifting. They are adding maybe 65-75% of the added value to that team (say over what is considered a replacement value player in this Historical League).

Exceptionally talented duo and fit together wonderfully well. Few teams can match that -- few teams have a duo capable of shouldering that much and adding that much to their team.

Maybe Chicago does with Duncan & either Oscar or Baylor but neither of those two perimeter guys give you the defense LeBron does. Nah, scratch them.

Michael Jordan and Bill Walton
LeBron James and David Robinson

That's it. Two teams. That is all I got. One other team that can shoulder as much responsibility effectively as LeBron and David Robinson.

They are the league's two most capable duos in terms of how much they can shoulder individually in all phases of the game and create team based structure in all phases of the game for everyone around them. Chicago have the 3rd best duo in terms of how much they can shoulder but I have them a notch behind the other two.

[mobilija]

As for the Celtics, I think that the Bron/Admiral combo will keep them afloat against any team in this game. They just need to cobble a good supporting cast together to win this lol.

Yeah, those two are going to do so much of the heavy lifting. They are adding maybe 65-75% of the added value to that team (say over what is considered a replacement value player in this Historical League).

Exceptionally talented duo and fit together wonderfully well. Few teams can match that -- few teams have a duo capable of shouldering that much and adding that much to their team.

Maybe Chicago does with Duncan & either Oscar or Baylor but neither of those two perimeter guys give you the defense LeBron does. Nah, scratch them.

Michael Jordan and Bill Walton
LeBron James and David Robinson

That's it. Two teams. That is all I got. One other team that can shoulder as much responsibility effectively as LeBron and David Robinson.

They are the league's two most capable duos in terms of how much they can shoulder individually in all phases of the game and create team based structure in all phases of the game for everyone around them. Chicago have the 3rd best duo in terms of how much they can shoulder but I have them a notch behind the other two.

Hmmm.... a far as duos...

I’d put Kobe and Hakeem in that conversation.
Shaq and West not far behind.

[Who]

As for the Celtics, I think that the Bron/Admiral combo will keep them afloat against any team in this game. They just need to cobble a good supporting cast together to win this lol.

Yeah, those two are going to do so much of the heavy lifting. They are adding maybe 65-75% of the added value to that team (say over what is considered a replacement value player in this Historical League).

Exceptionally talented duo and fit together wonderfully well. Few teams can match that -- few teams have a duo capable of shouldering that much and adding that much to their team.

Maybe Chicago does with Duncan & either Oscar or Baylor but neither of those two perimeter guys give you the defense LeBron does. Nah, scratch them.

Michael Jordan and Bill Walton
LeBron James and David Robinson

That's it. Two teams. That is all I got. One other team that can shoulder as much responsibility effectively as LeBron and David Robinson.

They are the league's two most capable duos in terms of how much they can shoulder individually in all phases of the game and create team based structure in all phases of the game for everyone around them. Chicago have the 3rd best duo in terms of how much they can shoulder but I have them a notch behind the other two.

Hmmm.... a far as duos...

I’d put Kobe and Hakeem in that conversation.
Shaq and West not far behind.

Shaq and West is a strong one. Uber-efficient offensive players. I don't think their defense is as strong as LeBron/D-Rob or MJ/Walton so I wouldn't put them on a par with them. But Chicago? Yes, on a par with Chicago.

I'd put Kobe and Hakeem a notch below the others. Not as efficient offensively. Kobe a very good defender but not as good as LeBron/MJ. Hakeem a bit behind on team offense too due to passing & propensity to go one-on-one. So I'd have them 5th. Close to but a bit back from Chicago and Miami.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

Huge trade brewing in Boston