We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.

[droopdog7]

Bill Walker had 22 last night vs Detroit, E house had 17.


hmmmm

Isn't Eddie starting in NY?  That will tell you all you need to know about the state of the Knicks team right now.

[FatjohnReturns]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

[wdleehi]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

[FatjohnReturns]

Doc is blind when it comes to talent and young players.

Really?

Name the young players who've done anything after Doc didn't play them. Meanwhile lets look at the rookies he's played:

To further illustrate Atzar's and my point:

Orlando 1999-2000: Chucky Atkins and Corey Maggete both rookies played 19.8 17.8 MPG respectively.

Orlando 2000-2001: Mike Miller a rookie plays 29.1 MPG

Orlando 2001-2002: Jeryl Sasser and Steven Hunter are rookies but don't really play

Orlando 2002-2003: Gordan Giricek (European player)and Drew Gooden were rookies and played. Pat Burke and Ryan Humphrey did not.

Orlando 2003-2004: Fired after 11 games.

Boston 2004-2005: Tony Allen and Al Jefferson both played

Boston 2005-2006: Gomes and Green both played, though not a ton still a lot more than Walker/Giddens

Boston 2006-2007: Powe and Rondo played

Boston 2007-2008: Glen Davis played

Boston 2008-2009: Bill Walker and J.R. Giddens did not play

Boston 2009-2010: Lester Hudson did not play

Doc plays roookies plenty, when they don't suck.

You forgot West in 04/05

Doc was forced to play some of these guys. Secondly when has Doc ever had a team so loaded with veterans. He burns the vets to the point of injury and the youngins cant get 5-10 mpg?. He also jellyfished out of having to bench Rasheed when he was jacking up threes and not running up and down the court. Doc is simply bad with rotations.

[FatjohnReturns]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

Wrong. Our age and injury situation demanded Doc give these guys a chance. They had given up on the best record in the East so what damage does it do to put them in 5-10mpg. Our guys are still pretty banged up. Also maybe more value could have been developed so we didnt have to give up all three for Robinson.

[wdleehi]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

Wrong. Our age and injury situation demanded Doc give these guys a chance. They had given up on the best record in the East so what damage does it do to put them in 5-10mpg. Our guys are still pretty banged up. Also maybe more value could have been developed so we didnt have to give up all three for Robinson.

If it demanded it, it would have happened. 


It didn't happen, so the situation didn't demand it. 

[droopdog7]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

Wrong. Our age and injury situation demanded Doc give these guys a chance. They had given up on the best record in the East so what damage does it do to put them in 5-10mpg. Our guys are still pretty banged up. Also maybe more value could have been developed so we didnt have to give up all three for Robinson.

If it demanded it, it would have happened. 


It didn't happen, so the situation didn't demand it. 

The point is, there was a good reason to play the young guys.  Doc didn't because they likely did not earn it.

[rondohondo]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

Wrong. Our age and injury situation demanded Doc give these guys a chance. They had given up on the best record in the East so what damage does it do to put them in 5-10mpg. Our guys are still pretty banged up. Also maybe more value could have been developed so we didnt have to give up all three for Robinson.

If it demanded it, it would have happened. 


It didn't happen, so the situation didn't demand it. 

Yea PP was nursing and injured knee and foot, Daniels was out for 2 months , and Ray was playing 40+ mins a night, and scal was in there grabbing zero rebound ,points, or anything else. Yea the situation didn't demand it at all............ 

[Vermont Green]

We developed enough value in Giddens and Walker to trade them for Nate Robinson.  I think that is pretty good value.

[jpd985]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

Wrong. Our age and injury situation demanded Doc give these guys a chance. They had given up on the best record in the East so what damage does it do to put them in 5-10mpg. Our guys are still pretty banged up. Also maybe more value could have been developed so we didnt have to give up all three for Robinson.

If it demanded it, it would have happened. 


It didn't happen, so the situation didn't demand it. 

Didn't Pierce say last year to give the young guys some burn since he and Ray were getting burnt out?

[hpantazo]

Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

All players practice wdleehi. Players dont get excited and energized by practice. Players want to get on the court. Walker got a chance in New York and he is making the most of it. Why with all of our injuries couldnt he have played 20 minutes a night here for a stretch. Simply Doc mishandeled it. I am not saying Doc is a bad coach I am just saying he messed this up.

A young play that wants a chance on a good team like the Celtics better be putting in the effort in front of the coaches during practice.  Otherwise, he is wasting everyones time. 


Walker did not show the coaches what they wanted to see.  Therefor, he didn't get more opportunities.  End of story.


Now he is on a terrible team with a bad defense.  He is getting a chance he would not on a team with title hopes. 

And he is only two games in.  I can find two games where Gerald Green put up big numbers as well.  (more then two games)

I have to agree with this, putting up a few 20 point games on the Knicks doesn't mean you are a good player. I'm sure Gerald Green could have put up 30+ for a few games on this Knicks team, and Eddie might go for 40 one night. I don't expect Walker or Giddens to be in the NBA 2-3 years from now. Walker was on a defensive oriented team with many great veterans to learn from and he couldn't learn enough to get on the court once in a while, what makes you think that playing with scrubs in NY will make him develop? Guys get plenty of playing time in the D-league too, and none of that helps them in the NBA.

[guava_wrench]

It is important to make a distinction. Walker's performance in NY supports the idea that the Celtics DID develop him as a player. He would not have his improved scoring ability otherwise, since D'Antoni has had no time to develop him.

Yet, the OP seems to have a different point in this thread - the Celtics did not develop value. This means that since his development was not seen during games, his trade value was below equal to his actual value.

This is all questionable, as Gerald had spurts as an effective scorer, as did Allan Ray. While it is not clear that playing Walker over TA or Quis makes any sense, there were many games when we were shorthanded at the wing where it seemed like a good opportunity for Walker. It is also important to remember that developing TA and Quis as cogs in this team was more important than developing Walker. Again, since we were shorthanded at times, it still seems like there might have been a few minutes available for Walker.

One problem is that playing a young player like Walker for 2 or 3 minutes at a time might not actually help him. In NY, he can play 30+ minutes with no pressure about defensive rotations. This helps him put up gaudy stats, making it tempting to overvalue him as a player.

[guava_wrench]

Bill Walker had 22 last night vs Detroit, E house had 17.


hmmmm

Isn't Eddie starting in NY?  That will tell you all you need to know about the state of the Knicks team right now.

TMac is the starting 2. Rodriguez is the starting 1. House is one of the first players off the bench. I don't know who else started in the game that Chandler missed, but when they are healthy, House doesn't start.