Wannamaker is still better than Rozier

[Celtics4ever]

I would think (or hope) that nobody thinks Wanamaker is better in a vacuum than Rozier is, because that argument really doesn't hold up at all.

There's a definite argument that Wanamaker is better for this team though

Chris definitely thinks Wanamaker is better.   I think you worded this well and can agree with your statement.   I think Terry is gone regardless.

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

Some guys also have first round talent and some do not get drafted either.

[ederson]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

[gouki88]

I would think (or hope) that nobody thinks Wanamaker is better in a vacuum than Rozier is, because that argument really doesn't hold up at all.

There's a definite argument that Wanamaker is better for this team though

Chris definitely thinks Wanamaker is better.   I think you worded this well and can agree with your statement.   I think Terry is gone regardless.

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

Some guys also have first round talent and some do not get drafted either.

Yeah, hadn’t seen Chris’ argument.

There’s a reason Terry has started ECF games whereas Wanamaker is a 29 year old rookie

[Chris22]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

[gouki88]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

Surely you can realise that Wanamaker's NBA career is too small a sample size to draw proper conclusions from though

[Chris22]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

Surely you can realise that Wanamaker's NBA career is too small a sample size to draw proper conclusions from though

I disagree.

[ederson]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

48% on 33 attempt 3p shots. Are seriously considering this credible sample size? Then I guess you believe that Domantas Sabonis is a better 3p shooter than Curry... 53% Wow!

And then you go on mentioning Rozier's carrier percentage... What about BW's carrier 3p? What about Wannamaker's carrier in general.. Other than the 8mpg for the celtics had you seen him play?

[Donoghus]

33 career three point attempts & 20 career free throw attempts in the NBA.

He was a career 36% 3P shooter overseas and 84% from the FT line. 

I'd say we're looking at too little a sample size here. 

[Sophomore]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

This Rozier stat shouldn't be overlooked. First time I saw this I read it too fast and thought you were saying he shot 38% from 3 for his career. Nope. that's his level for *all* shots from the field.  Also, he rarely gets to the line. Net, his true shooting % is a very bad .496 on the year. (For comparison, the league average this year for all players is .560.) He is *bad* at scoring the ball.

This is before we consider his inability to make good passes to his teammates and his hero-ball shot selection, which break down the trust required to run a real team offense.

Wanamaker will find it very, very difficult to be worse than that.

[Fafnir]

Wannamaker doesn't try to do things on the court. Rozier does things, but this year too many of them have been negative plays.

Rozier provides more D, a lot more rebounding and more potential. I think Rozier might play himself out of the rotation, but Wannamaker won't be getting his minutes. Brad will just go with Brown/Irving/Smart as his three guards.

[alt]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

48% on 33 attempt 3p shots. Are seriously considering this credible sample size? Then I guess you believe that Domantas Sabonis is a better 3p shooter than Curry... 53% Wow!

And then you go on mentioning Rozier's carrier percentage... What about BW's carrier 3p? What about Wannamaker's carrier in general.. Other than the 8mpg for the celtics had you seen him play?

33 career three point attempts & 20 career free throw attempts in the NBA.

He was a career 36% 3P shooter overseas and 84% from the FT line. 

I'd say we're looking at too little a sample size here.

Since the Summer of 2015, Brad Wanamaker has shot 717 three pointers, converting 272 of them - 38% rate. He did this in 5838 minutes in Europe, NBA and G-League.

This is not a small sample size. He's a cautious shooter and mostly shoots open shots off the catch, but he's been solid at those for a while.

Restricting the analysis to his numbers with the Celtic surely produces a small sample size, but there's no reason to do that, considering jump shooting efficiency tends to translate well between Europe and the NBA, at least at the level Wanamaker was playing.

Looking at his career numbers don't make much sense either because Wanamaker will soon be 30 years old. He's steadily improved as a shooter, so it's not all relevant that he shot 22% from 3 with Limoges in 2012/13 or that he  didn't make a single 3 pointer with the Austin Toros during the DLeauge regular season the year before.

It'd be similar to disregard Brook Lopez as a shooter because he makes far less than a 3 pointer per game throughout his career.

[Donoghus]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

48% on 33 attempt 3p shots. Are seriously considering this credible sample size? Then I guess you believe that Domantas Sabonis is a better 3p shooter than Curry... 53% Wow!

And then you go on mentioning Rozier's carrier percentage... What about BW's carrier 3p? What about Wannamaker's carrier in general.. Other than the 8mpg for the celtics had you seen him play?

33 career three point attempts & 20 career free throw attempts in the NBA.

He was a career 36% 3P shooter overseas and 84% from the FT line. 

I'd say we're looking at too little a sample size here.

Since the Summer of 2015, Brad Wanamaker has shot 717 three pointers, converting 272 of them - 38% rate. He did this in 5838 minutes in Europe, NBA and G-League.

This is not a small sample size. He's a cautious shooter and mostly shoots open shots off the catch, but he's been solid at those for a while.

Restricting the analysis to his numbers with the Celtic surely produces a small sample size, but there's no reason to do that, considering jump shooting efficiency tends to translate well between Europe and the NBA, at least at the level Wanamaker was playing.

Looking at his career numbers don't make much sense either because Wanamaker will soon be 30 years old. He's steadily improved as a shooter, so it's not all relevant that he shot 22% from 3 with Limoges in 2012/13 or that he  didn't make a single 3 pointer with the Austin Toros during the DLeauge regular season the year before.

It'd be similar to disregard Brook Lopez as a shooter because he makes far less than a 3 pointer per game throughout his career.

He's currently shooting 48.5% from three point land in the NBA.  I have zero reason to believe he could maintain that level of shooting once the sample size grows.   A poster is comparing Wanamaker's 2018-2019 Celtics numbers to Rozier's career numbers.  That's comparing apples & hand grenades, IMO.

He's improved as a shooter but I'd be willing to bet he'd regress down to hovering around 40% if that.

There's a reason he was playing overseas and with the Maine Red Claws.  He's a serviceable reserve NBA guard.  That's about it. And I'm fine with him on this roster.  However, to the larger point here; for all the warts we're seeing on Rozier, he's still the one with the larger upside (that hopefully will be playing for someone else next season).

[ederson]

Since the Summer of 2015, Brad Wanamaker has shot 717 three pointers, converting 272 of them - 38% rate. He did this in 5838 minutes in Europe, NBA and G-League.

This is not a small sample size. He's a cautious shooter and mostly shoots open shots off the catch, but he's been solid at those for a while.

But that is not the sample Chris uses to prove that BW is better shooter than TR. 33 shots is plain and simple a very small sample size.

Looking at his career numbers don't make much sense either because Wanamaker will soon be 30 years old. He's steadily improved as a shooter, so it's not all relevant that he shot 22% from 3 with Limoges in 2012/13 or that he  didn't make a single 3 pointer with the Austin Toros during the DLeauge regular season the year before.

It'd be similar to disregard Brook Lopez as a shooter because he makes far less than a 3 pointer per game throughout his career.

Even if we keep his latest seasons (i am not sure i agree but i see your point) BW is still not a better shooter than TR.

Chris22 said

Some guys can shoot, some can't.
Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

 

[Sophomore]

Some guys can shoot, some can't.

Rozier can't. Wanamaker can.

And how do we know that ? Based on the 33 3p attempts he has this season? Or his 34% in europe ?

Based on Wanamaker shooting 50% from three and 90% from the line. He is also a better passer than Rozier.

Rozier has been a constant 38% shooter his entire career.

48% on 33 attempt 3p shots. Are seriously considering this credible sample size? Then I guess you believe that Domantas Sabonis is a better 3p shooter than Curry... 53% Wow!

And then you go on mentioning Rozier's carrier percentage... What about BW's carrier 3p? What about Wannamaker's carrier in general.. Other than the 8mpg for the celtics had you seen him play?

33 career three point attempts & 20 career free throw attempts in the NBA.

He was a career 36% 3P shooter overseas and 84% from the FT line. 

I'd say we're looking at too little a sample size here.

Since the Summer of 2015, Brad Wanamaker has shot 717 three pointers, converting 272 of them - 38% rate. He did this in 5838 minutes in Europe, NBA and G-League.

This is not a small sample size. He's a cautious shooter and mostly shoots open shots off the catch, but he's been solid at those for a while.

Restricting the analysis to his numbers with the Celtic surely produces a small sample size, but there's no reason to do that, considering jump shooting efficiency tends to translate well between Europe and the NBA, at least at the level Wanamaker was playing.

Looking at his career numbers don't make much sense either because Wanamaker will soon be 30 years old. He's steadily improved as a shooter, so it's not all relevant that he shot 22% from 3 with Limoges in 2012/13 or that he  didn't make a single 3 pointer with the Austin Toros during the DLeauge regular season the year before.

It'd be similar to disregard Brook Lopez as a shooter because he makes far less than a 3 pointer per game throughout his career.

He's currently shooting 48.5% from three point land in the NBA.  I have zero reason to believe he could maintain that level of shooting once the sample size grows.   A poster is comparing Wanamaker's 2018-2019 Celtics numbers to Rozier's career numbers.  That's comparing apples & hand grenades, IMO.

He's improved as a shooter but I'd be willing to bet he'd regress down to hovering around 40% if that.

There's a reason he was playing overseas and with the Maine Red Claws.  He's a serviceable reserve NBA guard.  That's about it. And I'm fine with him on this roster.  However, to the larger point here; for all the warts we're seeing on Rozier, he's still the one with the larger upside (that hopefully will be playing for someone else next season).

Rozier clearly has more athletic talent and he's a better rebounder.  That's about all I see as his advantage.

But as of right now, if we are talking about this year's playoffs, I like Wanamaker better as the backup PG. The time for giving minutes to bring out potential is over and we are in win-now mode.  Rozier is a *way* below average scorer who also takes a lot of shots, often before making a single pass. He also has well below average court vision and passing ability for a guard. This contributes to the Celtics' main problem: they lose focus and lose the trust in one another that is needed to run a team-based offense. Sitting Rozier is addition by subtraction. I see a similar issue with him on defense. He oozes potential, but it doesn't materialize.

Wanamaker does see the floor, he rarely forces things, he plays hard. I would not want to have to start him, but as a reserve who facilitates for the superior scorers who *should* be taking more shots (Hayward, Brown, even Morris) he fills the bill. He isn't a great scorer, but he's good enough to punish a defense that decides to leave him open to focus on the other players. Net, if I'm trying to win another 16 games in the playoffs, not thinking about what Rozier might be someday if he figures it out, I like Wanamaker's fit on the second unit better than Rozier's.

[Sophomore]

Since the Summer of 2015, Brad Wanamaker has shot 717 three pointers, converting 272 of them - 38% rate. He did this in 5838 minutes in Europe, NBA and G-League.

This is not a small sample size. He's a cautious shooter and mostly shoots open shots off the catch, but he's been solid at those for a while.

But that is not the sample Chris uses to prove that BW is better shooter than TR. 33 shots is plain and simple a very small sample size.

Looking at his career numbers don't make much sense either because Wanamaker will soon be 30 years old. He's steadily improved as a shooter, so it's not all relevant that he shot 22% from 3 with Limoges in 2012/13 or that he  didn't make a single 3 pointer with the Austin Toros during the DLeauge regular season the year before.

It'd be similar to disregard Brook Lopez as a shooter because he makes far less than a 3 pointer per game throughout his career.

Even if we keep his latest seasons (i am not sure i agree but i see your point) BW is still not a better shooter than TR.

It is highly unlikely that BW is a worse shooter than TR, independent of sample size.

Searching NBA.com for guards listed at 15.0 mins/game or more, you get 164 players, of whom TR is ranked 142d in true shooting percentage. He's about seven points below league average. That. Is. Bad.

Even if Wanamaker is a below average shooter, he's likely better than TRIII. And even if he is just as bad as TRIII, he helps the team by taking fewer shots, especially shots taken without ever passing the ball. Rozier or Wanamaker are always going to be on the court with better shooters and scorers. Terry taking shots that should go to Hayward, Brown, or even Mook is bad.

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=TS_PCT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G