Have the players tuned out Stevens?

[footey]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

[RJ87]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

[LarBrd33]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong. 

[Larry for 3]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

Brown doesn’t have the “IT” factor yet. He has God given athletic talent but not elite skill or drive or smarts yet. He doesn’t get it yet, some guys never get it. Others figure it out at some point, the issue is you can’t wait forever & give a guy 100 million based on potential alone. That’s how GM’s get in trouble. Especially with the other huge  contracts on or will be on the roster. He talks a good game but I’m not seeing it. If he wants to be great then step 1 it to get his head out of his rear which is where it is now.

[Celtics4ever]

I like Brown and love his dunks, but I have to say it, he has a low BBIQ.

[Green-18]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

I completely agree.  As for the shooting struggles, I don't believe last season was a fluke.  Jaylen's success was a result of extremely hard work and dedication during the 2017 off-season.

This doesn't mean that he didn't work hard this off-season.  I'm just convinced that Jaylen will need to put in twice the work to maintain consistency as a shooter throughout his career.  Hopefully he can come to the realization that he needs to focus on doing one or two things VERY well.  He's simply not ready to "expand" his game. 

[Moranis]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

I tell you my Jeff Green comparison that I got killed for is proving more correct by the game.  A young player that was forced to play out of position on a team that can't correctly utilize his talent and skill and who leveled off and never really improved.  And it wasn't just based on stats despite what this board thinks, I believe they have very similar games even if their personality is different (Brown is more fiery than Green ever was). 

[Green-18]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

I tell you my Jeff Green comparison that I got killed for is proving more correct by the game.  A young player that was forced to play out of position on a team that can't correctly utilize his talent and skill and who leveled off and never really improved.  And it wasn't just based on stats despite what this board thinks, I believe they have very similar games even if their personality is different (Brown is more fiery than Green ever was).

The results certainly don't disagree with you.  My only grip with the comparison is that I've always believed Jeff Green had more natural skill to his offensive game.  The eye test tells me that scoring comes easier to him.  Dedication and competitiveness are the major shortcomings for Green.

The rest of their games are more similar than most would like to admit. 

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

[cman88]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment. 

[RJ87]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

Hey, you don't have to convince me that Jaylen Brown is significantly overrated. He's a great athlete who's figured out how to use that on the defensive end but has very little BBIQ on the offensive end. That's what he is and what he will likely always be, but there's a strong contingent here that believes he's a perennial all-star in waiting.

[KGBirdBias]

I like Brown and love his dunks, but I have to say it, he has a low BBIQ.

This is spot on.

[Green-18]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

[mctyson]

 On Brown:  he is really the main issue with the team right now, playing 30+ minutes a night and playing like a D-leaguer