Have the players tuned out Stevens?

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator. 

[RJ87]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

[Green-18]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

I think we are on the same page for the most part.  I just don't blame Kyrie for other guys feeling uncomfortable, mostly because I believe he is willing to do whatever is necessary to help this team get back on track.

Long term I have no concerns about Kyrie deferring to Tatum.  If anything Kyrie will become more dangerous as a closer.  Ideally the supporting cast becomes good enough to allow Kyrie to focus on what he does best.  It might not happen this season but I have faith in Brad and Danny to figure things out long term.

[PhoSita]

I think people need to get over this notion of Kyrie being a facilitator.

Kyrie is an assassin. A great scorer who will get points from anywhere on the floor with good efficiency.

You can't expect huge performances every night in the regular season necessarily, but in the playoffs he has shown that he can average 30-40 points for the majority of a long playoff series.

The idea of adding Kyrie to this team, as I understood it, was that he could slot right into the existing system and do his thing without causing any disruption.  The team had a system in place created by Brad that was all about moving the ball around and getting numerous players shots. The main facilitator was Horford, with Smart helping off the bench.

One of the major problems this year is that the system seems to have broken. The system being broken is why we find ourselves looking toward Kyrie, and to a lesser extent Rozier, to facilitate and make the offense work for the whole team. But that is not Kyrie's strength, nor is it a good role for Rozier.  Those guys are essentially shooting guards that play at the 1.

So I think we need to figure out how to get back to an offense facilitated primarily by Horford and various actions that don't require a lead ballhandler type.

Maybe eventually Gordon can be the primary facilitator and playmaker. Im sure that was part of the plan before he got hurt.  But he's nowhere near that right now.  Any attempt to use him that way is going to meet with disaster right now.

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Edit: If you remember, I had Gordy's injury to my wrist last December.  As of two months ago, it had healed ~10% with pain and minimal use, after 3 surgeries and consultations with some of the best in the world.  So I really can't blame Hayward for anything - he's fighting a brutal, uphill battle and I'm impressed that he's back out there.

[RJ87]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Tar, I'm having a rough morning at work. Thanks for the much needed laugh.

[Ogaju]

I saw the hit job on Kyrie and I guessed right that it must have been tarheel... What gives?

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Tar, I'm having a rough morning at work. Thanks for the much needed laugh.

Few people are at my work, so I can waste my morning posting here and then ruminate on it later.

We'll find common ground when you can admit that: a) We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player, b) He's limited to scoring, and he can't score with the same ease as the elite, c) LeBron carried him to his success, and he failed to carry a team for several years prior to LBJ; and so far this year, it looks the same despite the talent around him, e) To succeed this year, he needs to become more adept at facilitating. 

Also, you missed my edit above re: Gordy and our shared injuries.  But honestly RJ, your perspective is also a very biased one. I'm presenting facts or consistent opinions based on them.  I've even offered my own homegrown stats elsewhere despite the negative impact on my job.  I want to find common ground, you need to turn this morning around, and I need to stop typing on here for a while.

[Green-18]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Tar, I'm having a rough morning at work. Thanks for the much needed laugh.

Few people are at my work, so I can waste my morning posting here and then ruminate on it later.

We'll find common ground when you can admit that: a) We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player, b) He's limited to scoring, and he can't score with the same ease as the elite, c) LeBron carried him to his success, and he failed to carry a team for several years prior to LBJ; and so far this year, it looks the same despite the talent around him, e) To succeed this year, he needs to become more adept at facilitating. 

You're super biased RJ.  Again, I am biased with a strong dislike for the guy, but these are facts or opinions based on those facts.  Can you address these comments? I want to find common ground, you need to turn this morning around, and I need to stop typing on here for a while.

I think I can meet you in the middle on this one.

You are absolutely correct that we don't win a title with Kyrie as the singular best player on a nightly basis.  He certainly can't be the best overall player.  Someone needs to have an equal and/or better impact, whether it be Hayward and/or Tatum.  I can easily see them functioning as an elite trio IF Hayward get's back to 95-100% of his old self. 

- Tatum ideally becomes the most dangerous and efficient scoring option on a consistent basis

- Hayward should be the the most well-rounded on both ends of the floor.  As Paul Pierce once said, "I give the game what it needs".  The same should apply to Hayward long term.

- This ultimately leaves Kyrie to function as en elite closer who is also capable of carrying the load along with Tatum.  Irving should shine brightest in the biggest games.

Who knows how the rest of the pieces fit together.  I think we can both agree that Tatum will dictate future title aspirations regardless of other roster moves.  He needs to become elite.

 

[Who]

We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player

Not about this discussion. Just one point ... about the team in general. Not really Kyrie.

I do not see this team as it is built to be in the typical title winner build. Where you have best player (Jordan, LeBron, Shaq) and supporting stars (Pippen, Bosh, Pau Gasol). I see it more along the lines of the 1979 Seattle Supersonics or 2004 Detroit Pistons. A team that wins with multiple lower level stars (non MVP, outside top 10 stars) rather than one built around an MVP type talent.

On that 1979 Sonics team, you could argue any one of 3 players was their best player = Jack Sikma, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson. Lots of quality depth around them as well in John Johnson, Lonnie Shelton, Freddie Brown and Paul Silas.

With the 2004 Pistons, one could argue any one of 4 players in Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace or Rip Hamilton. Great depth around them as well (Tayshaun Prince, best bench in the league with Corliss Williamson, Okur, Campbell, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter).

I see 2018 Boston in the same way. Multiple stars in Horford, Kyrie, Hayward, Jaylen and Tatum. Great depth in Rozier, Morris, Smart and Co.

.... so back to initial point. Whether Kyrie or Hayward or Horford fits typical best player on a title winner, I don't really care about that. I don't think this team as configured has that type of player (MVP candidate) or needs to have that type of player (because it has 5 All-Star talents instead). It wins (or needs to find a way to win) with depth of star talent (5 guys) rather than true 1-2 marquee individuals.

[Green-18]

We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player

Not about this discussion. Just one point ... about the team in general. Not really Kyrie.

I do not see this team as it is built to be in the typical title winner build. Where you have best player (Jordan, LeBron, Shaq) and supporting stars (Pippen, Bosh, Pau Gasol). I see it more along the lines of the 1979 Seattle Supersonics or 2004 Detroit Pistons. A team that wins with multiple lower level stars (non MVP, outside top 10 stars) rather than one built around an MVP type talent.

On that 1979 Sonics team, you could argue any one of 3 players was their best player = Jack Sikma, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson. Lots of quality depth around them as well in John Johnson, Lonnie Shelton, Freddie Brown and Paul Silas.

With the 2004 Pistons, one could argue any one of 4 players in Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace or Rip Hamilton. Great depth around them as well (Tayshaun Prince, best bench in the league with Corliss Williamson, Okur, Campbell, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter).

I see 2018 Boston in the same way. Multiple stars in Horford, Kyrie, Hayward, Jaylen and Tatum. Great depth in Rozier, Morris, Smart and Co.

.... so back to initial point. Whether Kyrie or Hayward or Horford fits typical best player on a title winner, I don't really care about that. I don't think this team as configured has that type of player (MVP candidate) or needs to have that type of player (because it has 5 All-Star talents instead). It wins (or needs to find a way to win) with depth of star talent (5 guys) rather than true 1-2 marquee individuals.

Very well said.  I think most of us envisioned this type of scenario for the next couple of seasons.  Hopefully it can come to fruition.

Long term is it a bit different in terms of fan expectations, mostly because of Tatum's potential.  I think he has the talent to be a perennial top 10 player (MVP candidate).  Most of us are hoping that the best version of this team occurs when Tatum and Jaylen are in their prime.  At that point Kyrie should still be the same player at the back end of his best years.  Hopefully Horford is putting in his final years as an impact role player and mentor. 

[KGs Knee]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Tar, I'm having a rough morning at work. Thanks for the much needed laugh.

Few people are at my work, so I can waste my morning posting here and then ruminate on it later.

We'll find common ground when you can admit that: a) We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player, b) He's limited to scoring, and he can't score with the same ease as the elite, c) LeBron carried him to his success, and he failed to carry a team for several years prior to LBJ; and so far this year, it looks the same despite the talent around him, e) To succeed this year, he needs to become more adept at facilitating. 

Also, you missed my edit above re: Gordy and our shared injuries.  But honestly RJ, your perspective is also a very biased one. I'm presenting facts or consistent opinions based on them.  I've even offered my own homegrown stats elsewhere despite the negative impact on my job.  I want to find common ground, you need to turn this morning around, and I need to stop typing on here for a while.

Interesting.....

Let me tell you a story about a bridge.

[tarheelsxxiii]

I would explore trading Irving if this doesn't get fixed over the next 20 games.

I just think Smart and Rozier are dogs and their effort is what ignites the fire. Rozier blossomed when he was running the show and the ball moved. He's not playing well now but he plays better when he knows when he's going to play.

Get as much as you can for Irving if it comes to that. Sorry if that doesn't a sit right with some people. We saw the cohesiveness last year in the playoffs.

Why the hell can't William's be playing now? This makes no sense.

Lol. What a surprise! You want to trade our best performer, who is on an expiring contract (ie low value)? Ridiculous notion

You mean we gave up Sexton Collin, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Ante Zizic, and a second-rounder just to get rid of Kyrie Irving....

Collin Sexton, who looks good.  Or either of the Bridges. 

If Kyrie is a superstar as so many here maintain (top 10 player, even), then there is no one else to blame for our poor start, especially in the context of last year's playoffs (for us and the Cavs).

Lol. How can you post that with a straight face, when JB, JT, Rozier, Al, Hayward & Smart have all performed well below expectations. Not to mention coaching

Why do you think everyone is playing poorly?

I came under a lot of heat for predicting Kyrie's return would stunt their growth.  They played above their heads at the time on the biggest stage and all showed plenty of upside.  They're now at times relegated to watching Kyrie approach the game focused on filling stat sheets. 

They will turn it around based solely on the level of talent, and Rozier is probably shipped along the way.  But to claim the Celtics weren't better in the playoffs and continue to discount every one that predicted this shift is just closed-mindedness.

This has to be a joke. wasnt it the team with Kyrie that went on a 16 game win streak? if they have kyrie irving in game 7 rather than Rozier they likely are in the finals.

somehow it is kyries fault that Brown, Hayward, Rozier, smart are shooting career lows

It's mind-boggling that you can't see the team is worse with Kyrie right now.  I've been consistent that they'll right the ship and Kyrie could be paramount to their success if he abandons his stat-padding and focuses on facilitating for all the weapons flanking his frail butt. This after provided preliminary stats that suggest the team may actually perform better when he scores less.

It's Kyrie Irving that sat out of the playoffs due to "discomfort" and an unnecessary surgery while the kids nearly led us to the Finals against the odds.  He missed Game 7 because he didn't want to be seen in public with bandages on his nose (see Google).

It's Kyrie's fault that we don't approach the game as a team.  He's padding stats just as he had in CLE before LeBron but now he doesn't have LeBron to drag him (and last year's group of scrubs) to the Finals. 

At 20-24 years old, how would most players respond to leading that run and then quickly shifting back to offensive options #3-6.  I surely would not have responded as well.  Tatum has such high upside that it's painful to watch him regressing at the moment.

Do you really think that last years team doesn't make the same run or better with a healthy Kyrie?  Jaylen and Tatum were consistent contributors with or without Irving. 

Not to mention that the competition in the Eastern Conference is much stronger this year.  I loved last years team but I have hard time envisioning their playoff roster getting through Toronto or Milwaukee.  You could also argue that the Western Conference competition is much improved.  Rule changes or not, the Celtics are facing better teams thus far.

Seriously, do you really believe that Irving is "stat padding" to the detriment of the team?  All I see is a guy who's trying to play within Steven's system.  In the early going he probably deferred a bit too much.  I have seen nothing to suggest that stats take precedent over winning.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/-, but Kyrie has only been a net negative in three games the entire season.  The Celtics offensive and defensive rating with him on the court is also on par with last season.  His minutes are nearly identical too.  When he is off the court this team is a train wreck.

You might be right about the team having more confidence as a group without Irving.  The problem is that you would also need to include Hayward in this discussion too. 

This team wasn't going to take the necessary leap without Kyrie Irving.

We don't know whether they make the same playoff run with him last year, but we do know that fared very well without him and finished the year on an exciting upward trajectory.

The best indicator of his approach is our record; winners find a way to win games and we're losing to bottom-dwellers right now.  It's not a surprise, but that's in part because he's so limited as a player and leader; great scorer, but nothing more. 

I can't fault Hayward for anything, but I agree that in our current form we can't compete for a title without Kyrie.  We also probably don't win a title until Tatum rises to the clear #1 option and Kyrie develops as a facilitator.

Hayward is the one completely new variable to this team. You undermine your entire argument and expose it as a Kyrie hit job by not even being willing to consider how Hayward's presence may impact chemistry.

From everything I've read, Hayward has tried to fit in as a facilitator which is consistent with his play in Utah.  That would actually be reverting back to his earlier years in Utah before he took on more of the scoring load.  You're still unwilling to objectively assess Kyrie's impact on winning, but if I can try then so can you, even if we're on opposite islands.

Tar, I'm having a rough morning at work. Thanks for the much needed laugh.

Few people are at my work, so I can waste my morning posting here and then ruminate on it later.

We'll find common ground when you can admit that: a) We don't win a title with Kyrie as our best player, b) He's limited to scoring, and he can't score with the same ease as the elite, c) LeBron carried him to his success, and he failed to carry a team for several years prior to LBJ; and so far this year, it looks the same despite the talent around him, d) To succeed this year, he needs to become more adept at facilitating. 

Also, you missed my edit above re: Gordy and our shared injuries.  But honestly RJ, your perspective is also a very biased one. I'm presenting facts or consistent opinions based on them.  I've even offered my own homegrown stats elsewhere despite the negative impact on my job.  I want to find common ground, you need to turn this morning around, and I need to stop typing on here for a while.

Interesting.....

Let me tell you a story about a bridge.

Can't even tackle one of those? Repeating the favorable one-liners may earn TPs from your peers, but the points remain valid and have yet to be successfully countered.  So why bother?

[Moranis]

I think people need to get over this notion of Kyrie being a facilitator.

Kyrie is an assassin. A great scorer who will get points from anywhere on the floor with good efficiency.

You can't expect huge performances every night in the regular season necessarily, but in the playoffs he has shown that he can average 30-40 points for the majority of a long playoff series.

The idea of adding Kyrie to this team, as I understood it, was that he could slot right into the existing system and do his thing without causing any disruption.  The team had a system in place created by Brad that was all about moving the ball around and getting numerous players shots. The main facilitator was Horford, with Smart helping off the bench.

One of the major problems this year is that the system seems to have broken. The system being broken is why we find ourselves looking toward Kyrie, and to a lesser extent Rozier, to facilitate and make the offense work for the whole team. But that is not Kyrie's strength, nor is it a good role for Rozier.  Those guys are essentially shooting guards that play at the 1.

So I think we need to figure out how to get back to an offense facilitated primarily by Horford and various actions that don't require a lead ballhandler type.

Maybe eventually Gordon can be the primary facilitator and playmaker. Im sure that was part of the plan before he got hurt.  But he's nowhere near that right now.  Any attempt to use him that way is going to meet with disaster right now.

This is a fairly solid analysis of Irving and matches what I've been saying for years though maybe not as eloquently.  That said, Irving has never averaged 30 in any playoff series.  He generally has 2 great games, 2 to 3 good games, and 2 to 3 poor games in a 7 game series.  He just isn't consistent enough, even as an assassin, to truly be relied on in any playoff series.  Most people always remember the great games and totally forget about the other games in a series.  That was a huge problem with Rondo on this board, but in that respect Rondo and Irving are very similar. 

[LarBrd33]

I wonder how much of our struggles is due to the league having figured out Stevens system and game planning for us, compared to last year

I think some of this is true, but on the other hand we lead the league in open shots.   We just don't make them.

Could Brown's shooting last year have been a fluke?

It's certainly looking like it.

Full season is good sample size. Better than 18 games. Let’s hope it improves. Someone else pointed out that he shoots much better from the corner so maybe they will make that adjustment. My bigger concern with Jaylen is his continual struggles at the foul line and his inability to finish inside. Both seem mental more than physical.

He shot 29% from 3 in college. 34% his rookie year. It is possible last season was an outlier.

I assume Jaylen will turn it around and start making shots.  He's been bottom of the league bad so far.  Just absolutely horrendous.  You have to recognize that the guy is still a very limited player.  Go watch his highlights during the playoffs - it's almost all fast-break dunks and open shots.  That's what he is... he's quick and explosive.  He can be effective in a fast break.  He's also left open frequently and last year he made people pay.  He can't really create his own offense, and he isn't a great finisher, but last season he was shooting far better from 3-point range than any dreadful free throw shooter should be able to shoot.

I popped in here in June to comment on the ridiculous "Why trade for Kawhi Leonard when we already have him" thread.  I got a lot of heat for saying Jaylen's ceiling is realistically still just a fringe star.  Plenty of players capped out as 20 point scorers who couldn't make an all-star team.  The Corey Maggette's of the world.  The Jason Richardson's of the world.  Guys like Wally Szczrbiack (who actually made an all-star team once so maybe that's the ideal scenario for Jaylen).   There's a tiny chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a Jimmy Butler type, but more likely than not his best case scenario is a fringe star.  Someone like Rudy Gay. 

It's been absolutely dumbfounding to me how many Celtic fans failed to see that Jayson Tatum was by far a better player and prospect than Jaylen Brown.  Just absolutely mind-boggling that up until recently there were actually many Celtic fans that thought Brown was better and had a higher ceiling.  He doesn't.  It's not close.  Tatum has superstar potential.  Brown projects as a fringe star at best. 

In that same thread, when being told that Jaylen's "floor" was someone like Corey Maggette (which is absolutely absurd - Maggette peaked out as a 22 point scorer.  Jaylen might never sniff that), I responded with:

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

Based on his performance thus far, I may have actually been optimistic.  At present, Jaylen is pretty comparable to Justice Winslow (also 22 years old and a defensive role player).  Yes, the shooting may have been a fluke.  Hopefully he proves everyone wrong.

Hey, you don't have to convince me that Jaylen Brown is significantly overrated. He's a great athlete who's figured out how to use that on the defensive end but has very little BBIQ on the offensive end. That's what he is and what he will likely always be, but there's a strong contingent here that believes he's a perennial all-star in waiting.

The only thing i'll say is that I think Jaylen is still dealing with plantar fasciitis and that could very well explain some of his struggles thus far.