Author Topic: Nike and Kaepernick  (Read 8219 times)

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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2018, 08:11:34 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'll give President Trump credit for SOMETHING.

He actually stated yesterday that he wanted to take a hard look at the DIVISION in this country and the source(s) of it.

In my dream world President Trump would have a summit with Colin, Nate Boyer, Michael Bennett, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Dwayne Wade, CP3, Carmelo and a few others on issues like these.

For him to be (IMO) such a charismatic figure you'd think he could figure out stuff like this.
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2018, 08:11:56 AM »

Offline JSD

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“Believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything.”

Is it just me, or does the slogan not make sense if you have even just a vague understanding of Kaepernick’s situation? Yes, he kneeled during the anthem to protest against cops harassing/killing black men. However, in no way, shape or form did he ever imagine that his protest would lead him to not playing in the NFL again. There were also reports of him promising to not kneel during the anthem if he came back. I’m starting to get the impression that he would rather win his lawsuit against the NFL for monetary purposes, than to actually just play again.

What reports were those?

Do you have anything credible behind that?   Otherwise these sort of comments just end up as unsupported aspersions that aren't really fair to the target.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18805744/colin-kaepernick-stand-national-anthem-next-season

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2018, 08:11:59 AM »

Offline Sophomore

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Courageous move by Nike.

Thankful for Colin Kaepernick and others willing to stand for what they believe in.

They are exhibiting what "I" served my country for - the RIGHT to do such things.


The RIGHT to kneel? I disagree. Many here have argued they should be thrown in jail and I’m with them.  ;)


We don’t jail people for political statements or thought crimes. He’s free to protest and you’re free to say he’s wrong.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2018, 08:12:15 AM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Quote
Courageous move by Nike.

They have never been lacking courage hence the use of sweatshops against the grain and they continue to pay people $1.25 an hour.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2018, 08:14:28 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Quote
Courageous move by Nike.

They have never been lacking courage hence the use of sweatshops against the grain and they continue to pay people $1.25 an hour.



While I get what you are saying, for them to work with Colin on this is STILL courageous.
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2018, 08:17:21 AM »

Offline JSD

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Courageous move by Nike.

Thankful for Colin Kaepernick and others willing to stand for what they believe in.

They are exhibiting what "I" served my country for - the RIGHT to do such things.


The RIGHT to kneel? I disagree. Many here have argued they should be thrown in jail and I’m with them.  ;)


We don’t jail people for political statements or thought crimes. He’s free to protest and you’re free to say he’s wrong.


Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2018, 08:19:13 AM »

Offline JSD

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Quote
Courageous move by Nike.

They have never been lacking courage hence the use of sweatshops against the grain and they continue to pay people $1.25 an hour.


In an area where people typically get paid $.25 an hour. Don’t you think that’s relevant?

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2018, 08:30:26 AM »

Offline JSD

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Quote
Courageous move by Nike.

They have never been lacking courage hence the use of sweatshops against the grain and they continue to pay people $1.25 an hour.



While I get what you are saying, for them to work with Colin on this is STILL courageous.


Courageous? Have you read about the Ferguson Effect and all the problems this fake “police are bloodthirsty racists” narrative is causing in the black community?



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/20/the-ferguson-effect/?noredirect=on

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2018, 08:39:46 AM »

Offline Erik

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#1 Cool, I do encourage you to read more than the first paragraph as the data uncovers or illustrates what essentially are conversation starters to explore the reasons behind the data.  I don't purport that the study places a definitive answer for anyone here but does a great job presenting solid facts from which we can explore more...I'm definitely no expert and 100% cherry pick instances to help me rationalize my own gut feelings and personal stances.

#2 I don't think I can keep my own conversation based on how the Government alone is responsible for systemic racism as the government alone is not the sole source of political, social, economic, or cultural influence that contribute to what I consider to be "systemic" about racism in america and beyond.

#3, what NCE said... you question "doesn't the fact that America is protecting minorities prove that systemic racism doesnt exist?" proves the opposite. Systemic racism exists and such, there are government programs in place to help counter this, while complicatedly reifying a lot of the conditions that fuel the racism in the first place by putting "OTHER" in bold letters. 

Case in point by your reply to NCE earlier: "Minorities are a protected class so they receive additional legal protections and benefits. Work, education, lending, hate crimes, etc."  You said hate crimes.  Like....that's driven by racism, right? Or some sort of anti-other sentiment? Or are you just saying that categorizing them as such is evidence that they get special "protection and benefits?"

You're correct, the article does nothing to conclude why there is a wealth gap between Americans of different races. I didn't need to be educated on the fact that such gap exists, it's pretty common knowledge. The point of our disagreement (and where I'm looking for evidence of systemic racism) is that the reason for this gap is due to racism. Please point to me the specific reason why you believe that the system is rigged against black people. I have already cited several advantages that blacks have.

I'l touch briefly on the major one: Affirmative Action. Black students are given additional points on standardized entrance exams compared to Asians and Whites. Blacks (and other minorities -- including women, for some reason) are also hired to fill quotas in the work place and are less easily fired due to the threat of lawsuit of dismissal due to racism. Let's see a White person go to court suing their former employer over racism.

Why is affirmative action bad? You can either have equal opportunity or equal outcomes. You can't have both. If America is supposed to be the land of equal opportunity, how are you supposed to explain to the Asian student that he isn't able to go into his school of choice because his spot was taking by a Black student who got 200 points less on the SAT? These sort of practices are not only driving a wedge between races due to the unfairness of it, they are teaching Blacks that they are inherently inferior, when they aren't.

If the policy that we are defining is contributing to racial tension, the government (as usual) is not working as efficiently as a free market. In a society where there is no laws to punish different races (apartheid, Jim Crow America, etc.), free market capitalism will dictate that racism is bad. Those previous examples are ACTUAL examples of systemic racism. In South Africa during apartheid, blacks couldn't hold certain positions, legally. We have no such restrictions here. It's actually quite the opposite due to affirmative action.

As far as your wealth gap study, as I had mentioned earlier, I have my own theories, you have your own theories on why that exists. I can't take an article seriously that automatically jumps to racism when there are other factors that haven't been discussed: culture. Have you ever heard someone be referred to as "not black enough" by other blacks? What exactly does that mean? Generally, it means that they don't speak in ebonics, have a good job, aren't violent, haven't been in jail, and are generally not a nuisance in society. How pathetic is that? I feel that instead of people like Kaepernick and other race baiters blaming the struggles (and they are actual struggles) of the Black community on White people, they should take a look at their own community: the disproportionate amount of blacks who are violent criminals, the rap culture of being a thug, the fact that 70% of black families have no father. These are ACTUAL problems that are contributing to the struggles instead of a fictional White man keeping everyone down. It doesn't matter if you grow up with parents in the same socioeconomic level as the white kid next door. Think about how much OTHER influences you have in life: your friends, other family members, media, music, TV, etc. If you think that your parents are the sole reason of who you are, that's a joke. I always like to look at the asian study. It's interesting to me that asians make more than whites. They typically have a no nonsense culture (study hard, don't get in trouble). In your study they also compared asian parents who weren't born here vs ones that were born here. For asian parents that were born here, their kids performed about as well as similar whites. That gives me even more proof that it's more cultural as they're still asian in the eyes of racial bias of others.

To sum up, while your article does a good job illustrating the problem, it offers no actual evidence that there is systemic racism. Please point to me the specific problem with America that is holding Blacks and other minorities back. There is a massive movement of Black conservatism underway in America and it's because more and more people are waking up to see that the ACTUAL racist policies are the social programs that America has created to enslave minorities to the state by keeping them poor and creating economic incentive (free ****) to voting Democrat forever.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2018, 08:45:30 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Quote
Courageous move by Nike.

They have never been lacking courage hence the use of sweatshops against the grain and they continue to pay people $1.25 an hour.



While I get what you are saying, for them to work with Colin on this is STILL courageous.


Courageous? Have you read about the Ferguson Effect and all the problems this fake “police are bloodthirsty racists” narrative is causing in the black community?



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/20/the-ferguson-effect/?noredirect=on

I read part of the article, and understand.

But I'd like to think that most Black Folks in this country have a DEEP respect for Law Enforcement. I won't form any opinions based off of one article.

I know "I" do.

Ferguson should serve us ALL as a reminder of what can happen if there aren't checks and balances in place.

I know Attorney General Holder and the Justice Department uncovered a LOT of issues going on with Ferguson that led up to the fatal confrontation. Those images are too vivid for me to even want to recall.

I know that the VAST majority of Law Enforcement in this country do the RIGHT THING - daily. They do it without fanfare, praise or recognition.

It is when the ABUSE happens that it THEN places an unfair light / label on the FORCE entirely.

It is ALSO when the "Driving While Black", "Sleeping While Black", "Swimming while Black", etc, etc, etc - cases happen that cast a shadow on not only LAW ENFORCEMENT but this country that  I "DO" love.
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2018, 08:57:15 AM »

Offline JSD

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What happened in Ferguson was actually the epitome of falsehood reporting, as we saw in the case forensic evidence and Officer Wilson’s disposition. My point was about police no longer policing black communities the same way because of compliance issues and politics surrounding the current climate created by the major news networks. Nike has chose to support this distorted and unhealthy message that will lead to more innocent victims in every facet.


“Driving while black” do you have any actually data on that? You might find this study interesting: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/27/nj.speeding.study/index.html
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 09:02:22 AM by JSD »

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2018, 09:00:46 AM »

Offline greece666

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but I would be lying if I said this will not influence my future sneaker purchasing decisions

I love when people vote with their wallets, best thing people can do.  Wish more people did it.

But I always find it odd when it happens.

Nike has used sweatshop labor for years.  You're okay supporting them with that, but not this? 

Nike avoids paying billions in US taxes.   You're okay supporting them with that, but not this?

I probably look at "sweatshops" a little differently than most, but I do agree that poverty in the developing world and some of the conditions people choose to work in is upsetting. People, even when making 3-7 times more, on average, than their fellow countrymen, should still be treated with dignity and respect. As far as taxes, the less the better. The corporate income tax rate, especially when people have to pay income tax, is way too high. So I think Nike has acted logically for a company trying to bring a good product to market, at an affordable price, while still turning a profit.

Just to be clear, I'm not over here calling for a boycott or anything like that. I'm just saying that when it's time for me to pick up a new pair of sneakers, I probably won't be buying Nike. To me they are supporting anti-police rhetoric that is getting people killed.

Interesting phrasing! Those silly sweatshop workers, working at sweatshops when they could simply find another less exploitative no-skills-no-training job in a third world country


Nike sneaker factories in the developing world benefit the people there. The reason locals withstand and work in those conditions is because they are getting paid 5 times as much as their neighbor. If I were to get $500,000 a year to work in a “sweatshop” I would probably do it for a few years and bank some money.

I don't take an issue with Nike about its sweatshops, but what you wrote was both factually wrong and misleading. Most of these people spend their entire lives working under harsh and exhausting conditions, not to put money in the bank, but to survive.


Quote
The findings of factory investigations show that the supervisor often oversteps their duties. The laws protecting the workers are ignored in favor of cutting costs and lowering health standards. This is possibly because political leaders are paid off by factory supervisors in order to limit governmental interference. The leaders relayed messages to military and police units to overlook the conditions in factories so that the illegal environment could remain open and functioning. They also were warned to watch for signs of labor activism near the factories to prevent workers from aligning with one another for better conditions.

Women represent a large proportion of factory employees. Approximately 75 to 80% of workers are women and a majority of those are in their teens or early twenties.Factory jobs may require women to work long hours, ranging from nine to thirteen hours per day, six days a week. They are severely limited in the amount of time they can take off and are forced to work overtime on several occasions during the week. Although there are more women employed at the factories, they represent the minority in the higher paid supervisor positions.

Also,

Quote
. When laws in Indonesia were lifted in the late 1980s, factory workers and non-governmental organizations staged many strikes at Nike factories protesting the poor working conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_sweatshops



Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2018, 09:07:56 AM »

Offline JSD

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greece666,

What that I said is factually wrong? Nothing you posted seemed relevant to what I said. Workers in those factories make far more than people in their community working on a farm or at the market, to name a few available jobs.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2018, 09:17:26 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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What happened in Ferguson was actually the epitome of falsehood reporting, as we saw in the case forensic evidence and Officer Wilson’s disposition. My point was about police no longer policing black communities the same way because of compliance issues and politics surrounding the current climate created by the major news networks. Nike has chose to support this distorted and unhealthy message that will lead to more innocent victims in every facet.


“Driving while black” do you have any actually data on that? You might find this study interesting: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/27/nj.speeding.study/index.html

Interesting article - thanks for posting. A small sample size with the NJ Turnpike but noted nonetheless.

I found this article during a search

Quote
The most common reason for contact with the police is being a driver in a traffic stop. In 2011, an estimated 42% of face-to-face contacts that U.S. residents had with police occurred for this reason. About half of all traffic stops that year resulted in a traffic ticket. Approximately 3% of all stopped drivers were searched by police during a traffic stop.

These findings are based on the Police-Public Contact Survey (PPCS), a BJS survey that interviews U.S. residents about their contacts with police during the previous 12 months. Persons who reported more than one instance of face-to-face contact during the year are asked to describe the most recent occurrence. The PPCS has been conducted about every three years since 1996.

Summary findings

An estimated 26.4 million persons age 16 or older indicated that their most recent contact with the police in 2011 was as a driver pulled over in a traffic stop. These drivers represented 12% of the nation's 212 million drivers.
A greater percentage of male drivers (12%) than female drivers (8%) were stopped by police during 2011. A higher percentage of black drivers (13%) than white (10%) and Hispanic (10%) drivers were stopped by police during 2011.
Stopped drivers reported speeding as the most common reason for being pulled over in 2011.
Approximately 80% of drivers pulled over by police in 2011 felt they had been stopped for a legitimate reason. In 2011, about 68% of black drivers believed police had a legitimate reason for stopping them compared to 84% of white and 74% of Hispanic drivers
.[/b]

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?tid=702&ty=tp
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2018, 09:50:57 AM »

Offline miraclejohan

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...Please point to me the specific reason why you believe that the system is rigged against black people. I have already cited several advantages that blacks have...I'l touch briefly on the major one: Affirmative Action.
We keep coming back to this, respectfully.  Chicken and egg, right?  Affirmative Action exists because somehow, somewhere along the way, minorities were at enough of a disadvantage when compared to white men that these policies and programs were created to attempt leveling the playing field.  I'm not debating whether or not these work or not.  I'm just saying that their existence in the first place establishes that the disadvantage existed/s.

...I can't take an article seriously that automatically jumps to racism when there are other factors that haven't been discussed: culture. Have you ever heard someone be referred to as "not black enough" by other blacks? What exactly does that mean?
Yes, and in this case I'd argue that "culture" is influenced by racism too, by reifying the stereotypes that different types of humans are"supposed" to strive towards.  Yes, there are cultural and economic influences of course, but even the phrase "not black enough" is a racially driven statement that THEN influences cultural actions.  Chicken or the egg, right?

...
In a society where there is no laws to punish different races (apartheid, Jim Crow America, etc.), free market capitalism will dictate that racism is bad. Those previous examples are ACTUAL examples of systemic racism. In South Africa during apartheid, blacks couldn't hold certain positions, legally. We have no such restrictions here. It's actually quite the opposite due to affirmative action.
I thought Affirmative Action doesn't work and is actually racist and creates enslaved minorities and keeps them poor (see your point below)...So maybe it's more alike than you think?  Maybe Affirmative Action is actually a contributor to the systemic racism that you are arguing against the existence of?

...There is a massive movement of Black conservatism underway in America and it's because more and more people are waking up to see that the ACTUAL racist policies are the social programs that America has created to enslave minorities to the state by keeping them poor and creating economic incentive (free ****) to voting Democrat forever.
I don't disagree with that. I also don't think there is a level playing field (speaking as a white man) so I'm not a fan of abolishing these programs.  Fixing them and readdressing factors such as we are discussion would go a long way in improving policies and programs. 
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