Author Topic: Nike and Kaepernick  (Read 8241 times)

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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2018, 11:21:47 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.

Sunday Night Football was once again the highest rated show on television. 37 of the top 50 individual shows last year were NFL games.

The NFL hasn't shown anthems on television for years.

The plethora of television programming as well as the competition of streaming services and ability to just go on your phone and get game and stat updates(especially stats for fantasy football) has become more prevalent.

Ratings for other sports are down as well.

Lastly, consumers have a very short attention span. Nike sells tons of products to basketball, soccer, baseball and running enthusiasts. The slight dip in their numbers will bounce back. Guaranteed.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2018, 11:23:41 AM »

Offline rondofan1255

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Can we go back to more basketball related topics?

Posters have the option to not see current events if they choose. Contact a Moderator
Are you serious about that being an option? I would be interested in having CE hidden if so.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2018, 11:57:14 AM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

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It's still strange to me that people who have no problem ignoring police brutality and systemic racism can't ignore someone quietly kneeling during the anthem.

Once again, you and all of the others who believe in systemic racism can kneel to the anthem and criticize America all you want in your own home or a public place. Thatís your first amendment right. The moment you bring it to your work place and cost your employers money, donít be surprised if they do something strange... like fire you. You have no first amendment right in someone elseís private property. The people who tune into the NFL games want to watch football not have politics shoved down their throats.

Iím also curious to read your evidence of systemic racism in America... in 2018. Iím hoping itís more than ďI see white cops shooting black people on CNN.Ē Systemic racism would show up resoundingly  in the data.

Youíve got 2 points here:

1. The nfl as an employer can do what they choose. I agree with you and am still disappointed that they chose how they did. Just like I was disappointed when Andre the Giant turned against hulk hogan, but real.

2. You seem to require evidence that systemic racism exists. A. Can you offer a basis for your belief here or are you putting burden of proof on the plaintiff (no judgement just looking for a starting point) and B. What news sources am I allowed to use (again, to save the trouble of bantering over what constitute facts).

Happy to discuss.

Kaepernick cost the NFL a lot of money. At the end of the day it's a business. I dont blame them at all.

As for point 2, yes the burden of proof is on you. The laws state that minorities are equal to all other races, and as a privileged class of people, they are given additional benefits. Please point to me evidence of systemic racism in America. Not just that billy bob in Arkansas said the n word. I want proof that America as a country mistreats minorities. Cite any sources youd like as long as theyre backed by a credible study (preferably from an accredited university). As a minority myself, i dont believe that such a study exists but I'd like to know if im wrong.
I may be reading this so I have to ask, are you saying that minorities are privileged and receive extra benefits?

Legally, yes.

Minorities are a protected class so they receive additional legal protections and benefits. Work, education, lending, hate crimes, etc.


Quote from: miraclejohan link=topic=97628.msg2555976#msg2555976

Here's one study conducted by Harvard/Stanford/Census Bureau (couched in a NYT article) with some pretty compelling visual representations of the data: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

Some highlights:

"If this inequality canít be explained by individual or household traits, much of what matters probably lies outside the home ó in surrounding neighborhoods, in the economy and in a society that views black boys differently from white boys, and even from black girls."

"Even without this data, the people who worked on that project, he said, believed that individual and structural racism targeted black men in ways that required policies devised specifically for them." 

- i.e. the "privileged class of people, they are given additional benefits" you mentioned exist largely to combat the systemic racism you feel doesn't exist.

This was just one study I found.  Holler if you want to discuss or would like more. I'm curious in your response to this study.

I'll sit down and read the full link tonight, but lets say even if the premise is true, doesn't the fact that America is protecting minorities prove that systemic racism doesnt exist?

I'd like to keep this dicussion focused on how the US government discriminates against minorities. I fully understand that there are hateful people (on both sides, frankly), but how is America systemically racist in 2018?

About the first paragraph, the article seems to be assuming that because blacks earn less than whites of similar parental background the cause has to be racism. There are numerous studies that show that asians make more than whites. Is there racism towards whites by asians? I believe that culture and upbrining has a lot to do with children's success. Just because your parents have the same income as your neighbors parents doesnt mean that you are being raised as well. Is there a study in which a black child is raised by white parents and vice versa to remove all cultural biases?

No, in fact it seems to prove quite the opposite. Let me, ahem, construct a few strawmen to illustrate the point. Does the presence of blue whales on the endangered species list indicate that they aren't really suffering population decline? We have laws protecting the elderly and children, doesn't that mean they aren't vulnerable populations?

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2018, 12:02:26 PM »

Offline Cman

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2018, 12:04:07 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I have a hard time getting too upset over this one way or another. I don't think Nike goes this route without having a pretty good idea that this is gonna be a money maker for them long term, and from the most basic level possible I'm guessing older white people who are most likely to be offended by this arent their target demographic. Not saying there wont be backlash, but it will probably be net positive in the end. And as for the initial stock drop, several shoe brands saw that same initial drop the same day. It was just a down day. In any event, we will see.

As for the situtaion himself I don't think I will ever understand why some people choose to get so upset over a guy kneeling. I think first of all we all have to akcknowledge that police brutality/ shootings are a problem. If we can't at least get there I don't know what there is to talk about.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2018, 12:08:29 PM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!

https://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817

Folks, the wonder of all the world's knowledge is at your fingertips. U S E   I T

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2018, 12:12:47 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!

https://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817

Folks, the wonder of all the world's knowledge is at your fingertips. U S E   I T

I'm sure the whole anthem controversy is a factor for some but I certainly don't agree with the idea that its THE driving force or anything for declining NFL ratings. 

I'm fairly confident that there is a multitude of factors at play here; shorter attention spans, over-saturation of the sport, the perception by some that the quality of play has declined, etc...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 12:20:19 PM by Donoghus »


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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2018, 12:13:17 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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Yeah I disagree, I think this is Nike weighing in on a culture war that has really divided the country. Maybe that in itself is a business decision? I'm not sure, but I think it is a poor decision. I know plenty of those in law Enforcement, many of whom are athletes, who will no longer be buying their products. I realize that is anecdotal, but I think it will manifest itself in real profit losses over the course of time as I can imagine many in the law enforcement community will be going elsewhere for their sneakers.

Nike is playing the long game...law enforcement is but a minority of the market for Nike products. You must study the demographic changes in the country to understand  Nike's move.

As Michael Jordan may have once said, Republicans buy sneakers too.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2018, 12:13:55 PM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!

https://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817

Folks, the wonder of all the world's knowledge is at your fingertips. U S E   I T

I'm sure the whole anthem controversy is a factor for some but I certainly don't agree with the idea that its THE driving force or anything for declining NFL ratings. 

I'm fairly confident that there is a multitude of factors at play here; shorter attention spans, over-saturation of play, the perception by some that the quality of play has declined, etc...

Agreed. I personally am repulsed by the sport because of the CTE thing. I can't stand watching people slowly kill themselves.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2018, 12:22:02 PM »

Offline miraclejohan

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It's still strange to me that people who have no problem ignoring police brutality and systemic racism can't ignore someone quietly kneeling during the anthem.

Once again, you and all of the others who believe in systemic racism can kneel to the anthem and criticize America all you want in your own home or a public place. Thatís your first amendment right. The moment you bring it to your work place and cost your employers money, donít be surprised if they do something strange... like fire you. You have no first amendment right in someone elseís private property. The people who tune into the NFL games want to watch football not have politics shoved down their throats.

Iím also curious to read your evidence of systemic racism in America... in 2018. Iím hoping itís more than ďI see white cops shooting black people on CNN.Ē Systemic racism would show up resoundingly  in the data.

Youíve got 2 points here:

1. The nfl as an employer can do what they choose. I agree with you and am still disappointed that they chose how they did. Just like I was disappointed when Andre the Giant turned against hulk hogan, but real.

2. You seem to require evidence that systemic racism exists. A. Can you offer a basis for your belief here or are you putting burden of proof on the plaintiff (no judgement just looking for a starting point) and B. What news sources am I allowed to use (again, to save the trouble of bantering over what constitute facts).

Happy to discuss.

Kaepernick cost the NFL a lot of money. At the end of the day it's a business. I dont blame them at all.

As for point 2, yes the burden of proof is on you. The laws state that minorities are equal to all other races, and as a privileged class of people, they are given additional benefits. Please point to me evidence of systemic racism in America. Not just that billy bob in Arkansas said the n word. I want proof that America as a country mistreats minorities. Cite any sources youd like as long as theyre backed by a credible study (preferably from an accredited university). As a minority myself, i dont believe that such a study exists but I'd like to know if im wrong.
I may be reading this so I have to ask, are you saying that minorities are privileged and receive extra benefits?

Legally, yes.

Minorities are a protected class so they receive additional legal protections and benefits. Work, education, lending, hate crimes, etc.


Quote from: miraclejohan link=topic=97628.msg2555976#msg2555976

Here's one study conducted by Harvard/Stanford/Census Bureau (couched in a NYT article) with some pretty compelling visual representations of the data: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

Some highlights:

"If this inequality canít be explained by individual or household traits, much of what matters probably lies outside the home ó in surrounding neighborhoods, in the economy and in a society that views black boys differently from white boys, and even from black girls."

"Even without this data, the people who worked on that project, he said, believed that individual and structural racism targeted black men in ways that required policies devised specifically for them." 

- i.e. the "privileged class of people, they are given additional benefits" you mentioned exist largely to combat the systemic racism you feel doesn't exist.

This was just one study I found.  Holler if you want to discuss or would like more. I'm curious in your response to this study.

I'll sit down and read the full link tonight, but lets say even if the premise is true, doesn't the fact that America is protecting minorities prove that systemic racism doesnt exist?

I'd like to keep this dicussion focused on how the US government discriminates against minorities. I fully understand that there are hateful people (on both sides, frankly), but how is America systemically racist in 2018?

About the first paragraph, the article seems to be assuming that because blacks earn less than whites of similar parental background the cause has to be racism. There are numerous studies that show that asians make more than whites. Is there racism towards whites by asians? I believe that culture and upbrining has a lot to do with children's success. Just because your parents have the same income as your neighbors parents doesnt mean that you are being raised as well. Is there a study in which a black child is raised by white parents and vice versa to remove all cultural biases?

#1 Cool, I do encourage you to read more than the first paragraph as the data uncovers or illustrates what essentially are conversation starters to explore the reasons behind the data.  I don't purport that the study places a definitive answer for anyone here but does a great job presenting solid facts from which we can explore more...I'm definitely no expert and 100% cherry pick instances to help me rationalize my own gut feelings and personal stances.

#2 I don't think I can keep my own conversation based on how the Government alone is responsible for systemic racism as the government alone is not the sole source of political, social, economic, or cultural influence that contribute to what I consider to be "systemic" about racism in america and beyond.

#3, what NCE said... you question "doesn't the fact that America is protecting minorities prove that systemic racism doesnt exist?" proves the opposite. Systemic racism exists and such, there are government programs in place to help counter this, while complicatedly reifying a lot of the conditions that fuel the racism in the first place by putting "OTHER" in bold letters. 

Case in point by your reply to NCE earlier: "Minorities are a protected class so they receive additional legal protections and benefits. Work, education, lending, hate crimes, etc."  You said hate crimes.  Like....that's driven by racism, right? Or some sort of anti-other sentiment? Or are you just saying that categorizing them as such is evidence that they get special "protection and benefits?"

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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2018, 12:33:22 PM »

Offline Cman

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Yeah I disagree, I think this is Nike weighing in on a culture war that has really divided the country. Maybe that in itself is a business decision? I'm not sure, but I think it is a poor decision. I know plenty of those in law Enforcement, many of whom are athletes, who will no longer be buying their products. I realize that is anecdotal, but I think it will manifest itself in real profit losses over the course of time as I can imagine many in the law enforcement community will be going elsewhere for their sneakers.

Nike is playing the long game...law enforcement is but a minority of the market for Nike products. You must study the demographic changes in the country to understand  Nike's move.

No question Nike did this because it believes it will increase profits. The corporation isn't trying to weigh in on current culture, just trying to profit from it.  Just like Harley Davidson moving production out of the US isn't because they do or don't like the current Administration. It is just a move with profits and shareholders in mind.

Whether the move does or does not help Nike increase profits is something that will remain to be seen over the next 1, 3, 5, 10 years. A couple days is way too early to know.

That said, anecdotally, it appears to be paying off:

https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2018/09/06/nikes-controversial-bet-on-kaepernick-has-millennial-investors-piling-into-the-stock-nke/23519376/

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/ace-metrix-colin-kaepernicks-first-144832261.html
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2018, 12:49:18 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!

https://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817

Folks, the wonder of all the world's knowledge is at your fingertips. U S E   I T

I'm sure the whole anthem controversy is a factor for some but I certainly don't agree with the idea that its THE driving force or anything for declining NFL ratings. 

I'm fairly confident that there is a multitude of factors at play here; shorter attention spans, over-saturation of play, the perception by some that the quality of play has declined, etc...

Agreed. I personally am repulsed by the sport because of the CTE thing. I can't stand watching people slowly kill themselves.

Same.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2018, 02:11:24 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Not sure the ratings drop in NFL viewing is due to this controversy.

Overall ratings for television viewership is down 16%. NFL programming was only down 10%.


There you go with your counterfactuals again!

https://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817

Folks, the wonder of all the world's knowledge is at your fingertips. U S E   I T

I'm sure the whole anthem controversy is a factor for some but I certainly don't agree with the idea that its THE driving force or anything for declining NFL ratings. 

I'm fairly confident that there is a multitude of factors at play here; shorter attention spans, over-saturation of play, the perception by some that the quality of play has declined, etc...

Agreed. I personally am repulsed by the sport because of the CTE thing. I can't stand watching people slowly kill themselves.

Same.

Yeah, the NFL needs to accept that CTE is a major issue and make significant changes to protect players. I mean, even the WWE quietly accepted that and totally toned down their in ring action after Chris Benoitís CTE diagnosis even if they publicly question it.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2018, 05:09:41 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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ďBelieve in something, even if it means sacrificing everything.Ē

Is it just me, or does the slogan not make sense if you have even just a vague understanding of Kaepernickís situation? Yes, he kneeled during the anthem to protest against cops harassing/killing black men. However, in no way, shape or form did he ever imagine that his protest would lead him to not playing in the NFL again. There were also reports of him promising to not kneel during the anthem if he came back. Iím starting to get the impression that he would rather win his lawsuit against the NFL for monetary purposes, than to actually just play again.

Re: Nike and Kaepernick
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2018, 05:13:40 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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ďBelieve in something, even if it means sacrificing everything.Ē

Is it just me, or does the slogan not make sense if you have even just a vague understanding of Kaepernickís situation? Yes, he kneeled during the anthem to protest against cops harassing/killing black men. However, in no way, shape or form did he ever imagine that his protest would lead him to not playing in the NFL again. There were also reports of him promising to not kneel during the anthem if he came back. Iím starting to get the impression that he would rather win his lawsuit against the NFL for monetary purposes, than to actually just play again.

What reports were those?

Do you have anything credible behind that?   Otherwise these sort of comments just end up as unsupported aspersions that aren't really fair to the target.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

 

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