Robert Williams (Merged Threads)

[Celtics4ever]

I think Wagner is skilled already but he is limited by his athletic base.   Wiliams is the opposite with tons of potential, but low skill, a lot of guys never realize their potential, though.  But if he does he will be the better player but there is no guarantee that he will.

[Celtics4ever]

I feel like this issue is increasing becoming a "get-off-my-lawn" generational issue between Boomers/Xers and Millenials.

Gen Xer here and I believe he team should deal with it but most everyone at that age has maturity issues.  Is this what you expected.  BTW, at least my generation has lawns and doesn't still live with my parents...JK

[DrJasper]

I think he still would have picked Williams because of his upside. Moritz Wagner will never be able to switch onto guards. I love Wagner and think he will be a good player, but Williams has the POTENTIAL to anchor a no. 1 Defense!
Where are you from? I'm from Wagners hometown Berlin and have seen him play with alba berlin some years ago, he was so thin back than I could have never imagined he would go to the Nba

Grüße aus Berlin! Go Celtics

[Hoopvortex]

Good. Reminds me of when the kings drafted cousins then hired his high school coach

how did that work out?

Really well. Yes, Cousins, by all accounts, is a jerk with a temper, but he's not dead or disabled from drink or drugs and he does appear to stay in shape, make it to practices, and plays well in games.

You also failed to mention he is no longer in Sacramento though he was on a bargain contract.

FYI Cousins was a model citizen in Sacramento. He is beloved by the community. Also, players get traded, whether you attend practices or not. You cannot cite Cousins as an example that getting help doesnt work. For all we know, he mightve been worse without it,

phenomenal basketball player had no offers and had to call a team to lobby for employment at a bargain basement price. Yeah all that help he got really worked. Look I dont know how you reached the conclusion that I am against getting help for players. I am not.

Lol bro, how’s the humidity on Mars? Cousins and his lack of offers MIGHT, just might, have something to do with him weighing 280 and catastrophically tearing his ACL. Just maybe.

Ruptured his Achilles‘ tendon, not ACL. It’s usually a career killer.

[saltlover]

I watched Wagner play maybe 40 times in college.  I disagree to an extent about Wagner’s athleticism.  He has enough of it for the NBA level, although Williams clearly has more.

Wagner’s problem is that he reacts very slowly on defense — it just doesn’t come to him naturally.  This makes him look physically slow, as he’s a half step behind the play.  But it gets him out of position on defense, and he tries to compensate by flailing at players and picking up fouls.

If you think that’s correctable, Wagner could be better, because he’d become at least an average defender while being the vastly superior offensive player.  That said, I don’t think it’s correctable enough.  The college game was too fast for him at times, and the NBA is much quicker than college.  I don’t think Ainge would have selected Wagner if both had been available at #27.

[greece66]

Not my thoughts but those of an internet acquaintance who follows German bball closely:

"I think Moritz Wagner is going to be a very good role player
 Mo has "very good" weaknesses
 Mo's weaknesses are athleticism and defense which have less to do with talent more with hard work
 Offensive skills have more to do with talent, you can still train them, but it's much harder
 His biggest strength is the pick and pop game
He has the height and he has the throw to chuck over even the big boys in the NBA
 His throw reminds of Dirk Nowitzki
The motion and looking at his release (which isn't the quickest tbh) really reminds me of his
 His transition game is really good as well
 He's not the fastest or the most explosive (even though he has a good first step) but he has a good game sense for reading and knowing what he has to do
When the rebounds of his own team get snatched, most of the time he will be already at the half court line
 He's not the fastest but he switches the fastest
 The fewest college players are good defenders, Bamba being one of the exceptions ...
 Give Wagner a good coach who works with him on the athletics and defense and Wagner becomes one of the better NBA players
 I don't want to say All-Star, it's too early to say, if his chances were big he would have been drafted earlier
His potential: Julius Randle, Jabari Parker, Serge Ibaka
 Overall of course he will never be as good a defender as Ibaka but he has the edge offensively."

[ChillyWilly]

I feel like this issue is increasing becoming a "get-off-my-lawn" generational issue between Boomers/Xers and Millenials.

Please don't insult Baby Boomers, children of America's greatest generation, by lumping them in with the Gen-Xers. The Xers and their screwed up values are just as deplorable as the Millenials.

Baby Boomers despite inheriting the greatest manufacturing economy in the worlds history you found a way to give all our jobs away to "increase the bottom line"

You sold out Gen X and Y so that you may grow old and profitable at our expense. You're the first generation in American history that had it better than your parents and your children.

Remember when you could buy a house and earn your way into that engineering job by your mid 20s without a bachelors degree? Ya I don't because that reality didn't exist for me!

History will not look kindly at what your generation did in America.

[Big333223]

I watched very little of him but when I did, the first guy who came into my head was Henry Ellenson. So there's that.

[footey]

I watched Wagner play maybe 40 times in college.  I disagree to an extent about Wagner’s athleticism.  He has enough of it for the NBA level, although Williams clearly has more.

Wagner’s problem is that he reacts very slowly on defense — it just doesn’t come to him naturally.  This makes him look physically slow, as he’s a half step behind the play.  But it gets him out of position on defense, and he tries to compensate by flailing at players and picking up fouls.

If you think that’s correctable, Wagner could be better, because he’d become at least an average defender while being the vastly superior offensive player.  That said, I don’t think it’s correctable enough.  The college game was too fast for him at times, and the NBA is much quicker than college.  I don’t think Ainge would have selected Wagner if both had been available at #27.

I think Ainge would still have selected Williams too.

I did not watch Wagner play much in college, just some in the tourney. But watching him in his first summer league game, where the speed is much closer to the NBA than college, the game did not look too fast to him at all, particularly on offense. He was very aggressive, and able to get his shot off. I was impressed. He seemed to keep up on defense too, the Bagley posterizer notwithstanding.

[saltlover]

I watched Wagner play maybe 40 times in college.  I disagree to an extent about Wagner’s athleticism.  He has enough of it for the NBA level, although Williams clearly has more.

Wagner’s problem is that he reacts very slowly on defense — it just doesn’t come to him naturally.  This makes him look physically slow, as he’s a half step behind the play.  But it gets him out of position on defense, and he tries to compensate by flailing at players and picking up fouls.

If you think that’s correctable, Wagner could be better, because he’d become at least an average defender while being the vastly superior offensive player.  That said, I don’t think it’s correctable enough.  The college game was too fast for him at times, and the NBA is much quicker than college.  I don’t think Ainge would have selected Wagner if both had been available at #27.

I think Ainge would still have selected Williams too.

I did not watch Wagner play much in college, just some in the tourney. But watching him in his first summer league game, where the speed is much closer to the NBA than college, the game did not look too fast to him at all, particularly on offense. He was very aggressive, and able to get his shot off. I was impressed. He seemed to keep up on defense too, the Bagley posterizer notwithstanding.

The game is not too fast for him on offense.  He’s terrific on that end.  It is on defense.  When he’s playing someone one on one in the post he can be okay, although he’ll still bite for fakes.  When he’s defending someone face up, or has to position himself to guard his man while getting ready to help, he gets in trouble.  And it isn’t from positioning — he’s in the right spot. But when the ball moves he just has this hesitation before making his next move, and then it’s too late.  I’m not sure that will show up as much in summer league because the offenses don’t have much sophistication in account of only have a few days of practice (although you’ll still see it at times when he’s guarding someone off the dribble).

He’s going to be the weak link on most defenses.  He made a lot of improvement last year in his positioning, but that hesitation remained, and it’s something I don’t think is fixable.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Contrary to common opinion, Ainge and Stevens do not want "shooters." They want complete basketball players who can dribble-drive, shoot, pass, and defend multiple positions.

Wagner probably doesn't get on the court because of his slow feet and reaction times -- look at Greg Monroe.

[saltlover]

I watched very little of him but when I did, the first guy who came into my head was Henry Ellenson. So there's that.

How Ellenson can be a 6’11 PF/C and have only one block in nearly 500 minutes for his career is beyond me.

[Roy H.]

I think Stevens said that Danny had Williams targeted from the mid-teens onward, and was hoping he would slide.

[gouki88]

I think Stevens said that Danny had Williams targeted from the mid-teens onward, and was hoping he would slide.

Yeah, I remember them saying they expected him gone at #17 (or around there)

[Wretch]

Though an interesting post topic can we please keep that basketball topics about basketball.

This isn't a generational thing. All young adults need mentoring. I wasn't ready to be a manager/leader coming out of college. I was lucky enough to to find mentors that helped me move past my immaturity and the delusional self confidence of my youth.  To expect a 20 years old, who hasn't even graduated from college to be a fully formed professional isn't realistic. RW may be making more public mistakes than other young players that the Celtics have drafted his mistakes can be learning experiences for him. I will withhold judgement for now but he is not trending in a positive direction. Hopefully once he is engaged in basketball activities full time and around pros pros like Horford he will figure it out.  There's a reason he fell, athletes with his measurables are not typically available that late in the draft. We need to be patient and trust Brad and Danny.