WojBomb - Cavs evaluating options after IT physical...

[kraidstar]

All that said I think Isaiah would have to be in REALLY bad shape for them to give back the pick and take back Kyrie.

I think it's a Cavs ploy to extract more compensation, but assume it's not. Does Cleveland reengage with Phoenix and try to get Bledsoe, Bender, #1?

Kyrie would likely be FURIOUS if they tried to send him to Phoenix. I can't see him wanting to play with a bunch of second-year players on a team that just finished bottom-3, especially after glimpsing the potential here in Boston. He also admires Stevens, and is good friends with Tatum.

If I'm Phoenix I'd be wary of trading for him under these circumstances.

Kyrie has some leverage here too. He can tell teams like Phoenix that he flat-out doesn't want to be there, and that he won't resign.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn  3m3 minutes ago
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 Sources: Cleveland's evaluation/conversation on status of Irving/Thomas deal have remained internal. So far, team hasn't re-engaged Boston.

I wonder if the Cavs are looking for a third team to get in on the deal. Some one that they can bundle up with Shumpert with. Both Bledsoe and Boogie have been linked. Bos would have to agree with sending the pick to one of those teams.

 Makes sense for the Suns, they get a hurt player, a crappy player, which helps the tank, and a high pick.

It would be dumb if the Cavs backed out, they knew what they were getting into when the trade was accepted. Pretty much it was Irving for the NEts pick, and IT and Crowder were the matching salaries.

IT4 career suddenly went from hero to zero

He will be lucky now to even see "brinks mini cars"

poor little guy

he MAY see a brinks hot wheels or matchbox toy car if that means anything. LOL

[Yoki_IsTheName]

IMO no free picks or Rozier

Give them a 1st round pick (non lotto) swap option for 2019

Do we have to go through this hell and wait until Thurs for the Cavs to decide?

Any scenario where we have to add more to an already massive overpay would be insane. Honestly, keeping a disgruntled IT is better than adding more assets to make the trade work, because we GET BACK the Nets pick.

[Eja117]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

[hwangjini_1]

As if the Cavs didn't know he'd miss significant time. Puh-lease. Call their bluff. Even with Isaiah missing the whole year and being just contract filler, our deal is still better than anything else they'll be offered.

One thing: If this trade isn't rescinded, will those who gave it a bad grade for us feel obliged to re-grade it an entire letter or two upwards? Glimpsing the abyss of it being rescinded and having zero healthy star PGs this year should change a lot of minds.

Did we know he was going to miss significant time?

Depends on definition of significant, but if it's somewhere between one month and half the season, I would say yes, we knew it, too.

Can't believe Cleveland is playing dumb like this. Let them bluff away. We can start Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morris-Horford and wait on Isaiah all season if necessary to heal up for the playoffs if he can, and if not, oh well, it's just one season, our future is wicked bright either way. Cleveland's future, on the other hand, is ****** if they don't make a trade.

They should fire Koby Altmann for being an amateur GM

not our problem

not too many GMs are going to grow and learn on the job if they are fired for initial mistakes. 

but more to the point, do we really think that a GM who has been on the job only a VERY short time pulled this together by himself? this sort of move, and backing out, has the owners fingerprints over it, at least to me. gilbert seems the sort of GM would do something such as this and then drops it on a new GM.

welcome to the cavaliers koby!!! 

[Eja117]

This is gonna look hilarious when IT comes back in time for the playoffs and is great.

[RJ87]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

[Ogaju]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

this is why you must independently verify that IT did not pass the physical, you cannot leave that decision solely in the hands of the Cavs. The league's integrity or whatever is left of it is at stake here.

[Eja117]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

The Celts doctors recommended rest and rehab for the summer. The Cavs doctors would have to have come to a conclusion that is just totally different from that. I don't believe it. I think the Cavs know IT will be back at some point. I think the Celts kept them informed.

Notice the Cavs didn't jump up and down about getting IT. They weren't like "Oh we're so happy to get him!"  Now all of a sudden it's some huge problem?

What is this? Do they want IT or not? If you don't want IT we'll keep him.

If you don't want him then this shouldn't even matter.

The Cavs are playing and they're gonna get played. My GM is better than theirs.

[TheSundanceKid]

All that said I think Isaiah would have to be in REALLY bad shape for them to give back the pick and take back Kyrie.

I think it's a Cavs ploy to extract more compensation, but assume it's not. Does Cleveland reengage with Phoenix and try to get Bledsoe, Bender, #1?

Kyrie would likely be FURIOUS if they tried to send him to Phoenix. I can't see him wanting to play with a bunch of second-year players on a team that just finished bottom-3, especially after glimpsing the potential here in Boston. He also admires Stevens, and is good friends with Tatum.

If I'm Phoenix I'd be wary of trading for him under these circumstances.

Kyrie has some leverage here too. He can tell teams like Phoenix that he flat-out doesn't want to be there, and that he won't resign.

I don't think Kyrie would block a move to Phoenix. His whole thing is wanting to get away from the LeBron drama and play ball. Phoenix is a young team that would become borderline playoffs just by adding him. Then have a bright future.

Boston would be preferable but for him I expect being moved is important, destination comes a close 2nd.

[RJ87]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

The Celts doctors recommended rest and rehab for the summer. The Cavs doctors would have to have come to a conclusion that is just totally different from that. I don't believe it. I think the Cavs know IT will be back at some point. I think the Celts kept them informed.

Notice the Cavs didn't jump up and down about getting IT. They weren't like "Oh we're so happy to get him!"  Now all of a sudden it's some huge problem?

What is this? Do they want IT or not? If you don't want IT we'll keep him.

If you don't want him then this shouldn't even matter.

The Cavs are playing and they're gonna get played. My GM is better than theirs.

First, the Celtics medical staff isn't exactly perfect. We once spent half a season waiting for Kevin Garnett to come back only for him to get surgery that offseason.

Second, labral tears don't suddenly heal. It would not be even remotely shocking if the Cavs deemed he needs surgery.

[mctyson]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

The Celts doctors recommended rest and rehab for the summer. The Cavs doctors would have to have come to a conclusion that is just totally different from that. I don't believe it. I think the Cavs know IT will be back at some point. I think the Celts kept them informed.

Notice the Cavs didn't jump up and down about getting IT. They weren't like "Oh we're so happy to get him!"  Now all of a sudden it's some huge problem?

What is this? Do they want IT or not? If you don't want IT we'll keep him.

If you don't want him then this shouldn't even matter.

The Cavs are playing and they're gonna get played. My GM is better than theirs.

They cannot back out of the deal because of second thoughts.  Their staff has to have exactly what you state - a different medical interpretation of his hip injury.  This happens all the time in the real world and it is the reason you get a second opinion for major medical issues.

The only part that gives your theory any credence is if Cleveland's staff is deliberately suggesting IT have surgery at the behest of the GM or Dan Gilbert.  If so they should all be fired and lose their medical licenses.

[mctyson]

Personally I think this is all making the Cavs look terrible. I don't believe that they didn't request all the medical paperwork on IT. I can't believe that the Cavs doctors are just so incredibly better than the Celts doctors that recommended rest and rehab. I don't believe IT's hip has gone down hill.

It's all BS and show and Ainge can't let himself get pushed around like this.

Its one thing to read a medical report, it's another thing to actually examine a patient. People understand that, right? It's not uncommon for a patient to get a 2nd opinion that isn't in line with the initial prognosis/course of action. Some doctors have made an entire career off of this. Essentially, this is what's happening.

I'm not sure why people aren't getting that.

The Celts doctors recommended rest and rehab for the summer. The Cavs doctors would have to have come to a conclusion that is just totally different from that. I don't believe it. I think the Cavs know IT will be back at some point. I think the Celts kept them informed.

Notice the Cavs didn't jump up and down about getting IT. They weren't like "Oh we're so happy to get him!"  Now all of a sudden it's some huge problem?

What is this? Do they want IT or not? If you don't want IT we'll keep him.

If you don't want him then this shouldn't even matter.

The Cavs are playing and they're gonna get played. My GM is better than theirs.

First, the Celtics medical staff isn't exactly perfect. We once spent half a season waiting for Kevin Garnett to come back only for him to get surgery that offseason.

Second, labral tears don't suddenly heal. It would not be even remotely shocking if the Cavs deemed he needs surgery.

This is correct.  Further, the fall out from this would be solely at the feet of the C's staff and Danny Ainge, the former for not recommending surgery and the latter for constructing a trade centered on a player that had a serious injury that required surgery

[blink]

having the deal fall through is a bad look for both sides, which adds incentive for the deal to go through.

but, if it does collapse completely, it is the cavs who will suffer more in the long run.

celtics - 2017-18 is in trouble since IT will either miss part of the season or sold off for lesser return. the celtics will make the playoffs, but get bounced early, maybe in second round since they lack a very good scorer to compliment hayward.

crowder is gone one way or the other.

but, after that, the celtics have the brooklyn pick back and get a year of development from the youngsters. IT would have been gone anyway after next season, so no change there.

not doing the trade hurts the celtics for next season, but the celtics can recover and with the youngsters can look very good for the years following.

cavs - kyrie is not suiting up for next season since they really need to/have to trade him now. compounding this problem is that any sort of leverage they may have had will be reduced greatly. what can they get for kyrie that gets them closer to their twin goals of (1) competeing this year, and, (2) starting the rebuild after lebron leaves?

the boston deal was a god send for cleveland to gives a final shot at a championship AND jump start the rebuild.

i think the deal goes through, with perhaps some tweaking by boston.

TP for a great take on this.  I kind of said something similar last night, but you did a better job explaining why this is worse for the Cavs.

[mctyson]

To me, it seems like IT would have to be significantly worse than the C's doctors thought in order for this report to be legit - like losing a month of the season to rehab versus a whole season to surgery. That seems unlikely that the two sides could have such disparate medical opinions.

That's why I'm leaning more towards this being a ploy to get more. Or at least it could be them trying to offload Shump in the deal, too.

It's probably more of a ploy, but if they're trying to move Shumpert, that's going to be a complete deal breaker.  The Celtics don't have any more salary to send out to match.  They're not sending out Tatum, which is what it takes to match that salary.

But it's possible that the Cavs doctors really feel that rehab just won't work for IT's hip, and that surgery is the only option.  That could easily be a six-month recovery time.  Early reports from IT's injury indicated that surgery was likely, and many were surprised when rehab was the way IT and the Celtics were going.  The Cavs doctor/training staff having a difference of opinion from the Celtics is still unlikely, but the possibility may be elevated in this case if IT's case was borderline as to what to do.

Like I have said numerous times, IT was very much at risk of having surgery before the trade happened so it is perfectly normal for an independent medical staff to determine that, yes, he might need surgery after all.

I think people really need to consider the ethical ramifications here for Cleveland's doctors and relax with the "ploy" talk.  That conclusion insinuates that that their staff is concocting a false diagnosis and/or proposing a more risky and serious treatment just to please Dan Gilbert.