Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?

[Moranis]

No of course not.  That is just silly.

I will say this, without that trade, Boston likely doesn't make the playoffs two years ago and thus would likely have Winslow or Turner instead of Rozier.  That would have been the only real positive.

Can you imagine the state of the blog if we'd drafted Winslow right now? We probably would have Dunn in place of Jaylen, and would be picking mid-lottery with no end in sight to losing.

Fascinating how soon people forgot what the Draft Savant was willing to give up to pick Winslow.

But I digress. We're supposed to forget all of Ainge's draft mistakes. Doesn't fit the narrative.

I'm a big fan of Ainge, but that opinion is also shaped by the fact that he has gotten extremely lucky. There are moves he wanted to make that didn't happen that would have been disastrous.

His biggest strengths are his luck, patience and fearlessness. Granted he's probably more able to be lucky and fearless because of his job security.

On Roy's comment, I bet a some people on the blog would have been happier if things had turned out like that (which is baffling to me). The outcry of support for Dunn, mostly because pundits thought we should pick him was annoying to say the least.

I am actually a big fan of Trader Danny, although it would appear he's an even bigger fan of Trader Danny.

His alleged drafting acumen has been blown out of all proportion on this board, to levels only seen here in the rhapsodizing about the max contract Rondo deserved.

And we all know how that one worked out.

no one is saying he's the best drafter

but apparently there are a few people her who feel he should have grabbed  a superstar with all those mid 20s picks....

by the way, do you still hate the brown pick? curious...

I would have drafted Dunn and traded him to Chicago in the Butler deal with a song in my heart.

Jury is more than still out on Jaylen Brown, so I'm not going to join this blog in dusting off a spot for him in the Hall of Fame.

if that was available, then i hear ya

but if the bulls balked, we would have been stuck with dunn. he doesn't seem to be all that great (still early) and he would struggle to find playing time

tough to tell

PS: "the song in my heart" with regards to this team is "don't stop thinking about tomorrow"

you make the trade before the draft pick is selected and then just finalize the trade after.  Happens all the time.  You don't just select Dunn and hope to trade him later, you select him for another team that has acquired the pick

[Tr1boy]

Absolutely not, But C's should not have pushed for the playoffs that year forcing multiple players to play banged up and team got swept. The tank should have been in effect still and another top 10 pick  (maybe Turner) would be on this team right now.

This is silly.  Players don't tank.  Teams do, but players go out there and compete.  I'm glad Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder played their tails off that year.  IT was a nice addition, but he wasn't even starting, and only played in 21 games for the team.

The team finished three games above Miami for the coveted 10th pick.  There were three Eastern Conference teams between the Celtics and that pick.  The Celtics were trying to build a winning culture, and pulling the plug on the team with two weeks left in the season (what they would've needed to do to get to that pick) by playing Phil Pressey and James Young in place of Smart, Thomas, Crowder, and Evan Turner would have sent a terrible message.  Absolutely terrible.  (Not to mention Miami was losing that pick to Philly if it wound up 11th.  Once they'd decided to tank, they had a goal, and weren't going to give up that 10th spot.)

Would the optimal outcome have been that the team played really hard and ended up at 37 wins instead of 40? Maybe.  But it certainly wasn't ever going to be "management submarines upstart team's months of gritty effort for draft position."  That's not what winning franchises do.

I can't believe that, even after getting Jaylen Brown, with more two top lottery picks for the Nets staring us in the face, that people can't give up on missing out on a late lottery pick from a draft that's looking pretty questionable two years later.

The Heat and Pacers were supposedly the "better" teams that tanked to get those great picks.  How has that really worked out for either of them? Would you take either of their situations over the Celtics?  And I don't even mean future assets -- I mean the last two seasons.  It's not even debatable.

This Sehnsucht needs to go away.  (Sorry to break out the German, but English is incapable of expressing the problem.)

Csfan1984, along with triboy, has been one of the biggest advocates of tanking and turning this team into a bunch of teenagers on this site. His response in this thread by the OP is kind of expected. It is aggravating given what has transpired with this team over the last three years for people to still be lamenting not tanking. I feel ya, salty so have a TP.

I'm about building for a championship and developing players. Nothing close to say a 76ers job. I wasn't against getting IT, I was for it. What I am talking about is getting talent that can be developed or be flipped. I do not want the C's playing guys or picking up guys that aren't going to help you get that ring unless they are a bargain. Example Turner/Green vs Horford. I was for Green/Turner as bargains. I was not for Horford (unless he came with KD) he was a declining stiff. I am also big on offering IT a max three year deal/extension if team doesn't get a guy in FA. I firmly believe you can keep IT and still develop a Fultz or Ball behind him. So again it's not about a bunch of young guys it's about getting talent that can help us win a championship not make a playoff and get swept OR embarrassed on C's home floor.

I disagree

It is not efficient or ideal to restrict min for a top 3 pick(look what is happening with Brown) ... Unless not in nba physical shape (overweight, frail)

[CoachBo]

Yeah, Thomas was just awful last night - scoring, distributing, a blocked shot.

Let's trade him and turn the proudest franchise in the NBA into the 1973 76ers,

About as awful as Horford.

LOL.

As for tomorrow, obsessing about it when opportunity is knocking today is fool's gold.

[nickagneta]

Absolutely not, But C's should not have pushed for the playoffs that year forcing multiple players to play banged up and team got swept. The tank should have been in effect still and another top 10 pick  (maybe Turner) would be on this team right now.

This is silly.  Players don't tank.  Teams do, but players go out there and compete.  I'm glad Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder played their tails off that year.  IT was a nice addition, but he wasn't even starting, and only played in 21 games for the team.

The team finished three games above Miami for the coveted 10th pick.  There were three Eastern Conference teams between the Celtics and that pick.  The Celtics were trying to build a winning culture, and pulling the plug on the team with two weeks left in the season (what they would've needed to do to get to that pick) by playing Phil Pressey and James Young in place of Smart, Thomas, Crowder, and Evan Turner would have sent a terrible message.  Absolutely terrible.  (Not to mention Miami was losing that pick to Philly if it wound up 11th.  Once they'd decided to tank, they had a goal, and weren't going to give up that 10th spot.)

Would the optimal outcome have been that the team played really hard and ended up at 37 wins instead of 40? Maybe.  But it certainly wasn't ever going to be "management submarines upstart team's months of gritty effort for draft position."  That's not what winning franchises do.

I can't believe that, even after getting Jaylen Brown, with more two top lottery picks for the Nets staring us in the face, that people can't give up on missing out on a late lottery pick from a draft that's looking pretty questionable two years later.

The Heat and Pacers were supposedly the "better" teams that tanked to get those great picks.  How has that really worked out for either of them? Would you take either of their situations over the Celtics?  And I don't even mean future assets -- I mean the last two seasons.  It's not even debatable.

This Sehnsucht needs to go away.  (Sorry to break out the German, but English is incapable of expressing the problem.)

Csfan1984, along with triboy, has been one of the biggest advocates of tanking and turning this team into a bunch of teenagers on this site. His response in this thread by the OP is kind of expected. It is aggravating given what has transpired with this team over the last three years for people to still be lamenting not tanking. I feel ya, salty so have a TP.

I'm about building for a championship and developing players. Nothing close to say a 76ers job. I wasn't against getting IT, I was for it. What I am talking about is getting talent that can be developed or be flipped. I do not want the C's playing guys or picking up guys that aren't going to help you get that ring unless they are a bargain. Example Turner/Green vs Horford. I was for Green/Turner as bargains. I was not for Horford (unless he came with KD) he was a declining stiff. I am also big on offering IT a max three year deal/extension if team doesn't get a guy in FA. I firmly believe you can keep IT and still develop a Fultz or Ball behind him. So again it's not about a bunch of young guys it's about getting talent that can help us win a championship not make a playoff and get swept OR embarrassed on C's home floor.

I disagree

It is not efficient or ideal to restrict min for a top 3 pick(look what is happening with Brown) ... Unless not in nba physical shape (overweight, frail)

Brown was lost on defense to start the year and was fairly useless on offense. Making him earn his minutes in a winning environment and forcing him to be responsible for his play, as compared to force feeding him minutes and him just going out and throwing stats up regardless of whether it helps the team, has quickly developed him into a consistent two way force that also does all the little things that make a team win. He has developed significantly while playing a supporting role as a bench player. I don't see anyway that he has been held back in his development because he isn't starting and playing 30+MPG.

[slamtheking]

Absolutely not, But C's should not have pushed for the playoffs that year forcing multiple players to play banged up and team got swept. The tank should have been in effect still and another top 10 pick  (maybe Turner) would be on this team right now.

This is silly.  Players don't tank.  Teams do, but players go out there and compete.  I'm glad Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder played their tails off that year.  IT was a nice addition, but he wasn't even starting, and only played in 21 games for the team.

The team finished three games above Miami for the coveted 10th pick.  There were three Eastern Conference teams between the Celtics and that pick.  The Celtics were trying to build a winning culture, and pulling the plug on the team with two weeks left in the season (what they would've needed to do to get to that pick) by playing Phil Pressey and James Young in place of Smart, Thomas, Crowder, and Evan Turner would have sent a terrible message.  Absolutely terrible.  (Not to mention Miami was losing that pick to Philly if it wound up 11th.  Once they'd decided to tank, they had a goal, and weren't going to give up that 10th spot.)

Would the optimal outcome have been that the team played really hard and ended up at 37 wins instead of 40? Maybe.  But it certainly wasn't ever going to be "management submarines upstart team's months of gritty effort for draft position."  That's not what winning franchises do.

I can't believe that, even after getting Jaylen Brown, with more two top lottery picks for the Nets staring us in the face, that people can't give up on missing out on a late lottery pick from a draft that's looking pretty questionable two years later.

The Heat and Pacers were supposedly the "better" teams that tanked to get those great picks.  How has that really worked out for either of them? Would you take either of their situations over the Celtics?  And I don't even mean future assets -- I mean the last two seasons.  It's not even debatable.

This Sehnsucht needs to go away.  (Sorry to break out the German, but English is incapable of expressing the problem.)

Csfan1984, along with triboy, has been one of the biggest advocates of tanking and turning this team into a bunch of teenagers on this site. His response in this thread by the OP is kind of expected. It is aggravating given what has transpired with this team over the last three years for people to still be lamenting not tanking. I feel ya, salty so have a TP.

I'm about building for a championship and developing players. Nothing close to say a 76ers job. I wasn't against getting IT, I was for it. What I am talking about is getting talent that can be developed or be flipped. I do not want the C's playing guys or picking up guys that aren't going to help you get that ring unless they are a bargain. Example Turner/Green vs Horford. I was for Green/Turner as bargains. I was not for Horford (unless he came with KD) he was a declining stiff. I am also big on offering IT a max three year deal/extension if team doesn't get a guy in FA. I firmly believe you can keep IT and still develop a Fultz or Ball behind him. So again it's not about a bunch of young guys it's about getting talent that can help us win a championship not make a playoff and get swept OR embarrassed on C's home floor.

I disagree

It is not efficient or ideal to restrict min for a top 3 pick(look what is happening with Brown) ... Unless not in nba physical shape (overweight, frail)

Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.

[Roy H.]

Poll options by Roy H.

[Ed Hollison]

Honest question for whoever can answer it: If the Celtics decide to give IT a max contract at the end of next season, what percentage of the cap or what dollar amount would it be for?

[saltlover]

Honest question for whoever can answer it: If the Celtics decide to give IT a max contract at the end of next season, what percentage of the cap or what dollar amount would it be for?

30% of the cap in year 1.  If he's given an renegotiation and extension this summer, the max would be 25% in year 1.

[mmmmm]

Poll options by Roy H.

The poll doesn't seem to be rendering right in my view.   The text for each option is there, but the poll buttons, etc. are not.

[Roy H.]

Poll options by Roy H.

The poll doesn't seem to be rendering right in my view.   The text for each option is there, but the poll buttons, etc. are not.

Looks like voting was locked. It should be fixed now.

[Moranis]

Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.

Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA. 

[moiso]

No of course not.  That is just silly.

I will say this, without that trade, Boston likely doesn't make the playoffs two years ago and thus would likely have Winslow or Turner instead of Rozier.  That would have been the only real positive.

Can you imagine the state of the blog if we'd drafted Winslow right now? We probably would have Dunn in place of Jaylen, and would be picking mid-lottery with no end in sight to losing.

Fascinating how soon people forgot what the Draft Savant was willing to give up to pick Winslow.

But I digress. We're supposed to forget all of Ainge's draft mistakes. Doesn't fit the narrative.

Criticising Ainge for a trade that he didn't make is ridiculous.

[Tr1boy]

Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.

Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam

[CelticGuardian]

I mean, that pick we sent out and Marcus Thornton were both useless assets, especially the pick in Danny's hands. Getting a 30 ppg scorer out of that transaction is a thing of beauty.

That was a hell of a game tho, tick for tack. C's are fully healthy, AB didn't lose a step and can get better before the playoffs. I'm at least excited and that is in large part thanks to IT4 being here.

 I have no magical feeling like I did in 2008 though, where I was giddy and telling myself the team could win it all. I just want to see a competitive match, and steal a game or two from Cleveland if we even make it that far. Expectations can't be held on this team.... it seems to jinx everything.

[Tr1boy]

IT4 passed out of double teams yesterday and actually passed the ball/trusted his teammates late in the game.. Its like only the 2nd time he did this , this season..

I dont dislike the little guy, but imo he is a topnotch 6th man able to start under cbs...

This has also slowed down Smarts development and it took ABs injury to give him a real chance