Bucher: Bulls shopping Butler

[max215]

George is waaaaaaaay better than Butler imo. Not worth going into a deep discussion about it. Takes away from the topic.

You really expect to put this out there and not get challenged on it lol? Again, I'd just like to see one credible argument for George > Butler. He's a marginally better 3-point shooter; that's it.

Time will tell. I mentioned why I like George so much in another thread. No point in spewing the same stuff.

Basically I think George's stats are a little misleading. Also he is a top 3 perimeter defender imo. He would put up better stats than Butler if he was on the Celtics imo.

Man, I just couldn't disagree more. PG is a really nice player, but IMO one of the more overrated players in the league. I just don't think he's all that special of an offensive player. George is a really, really good player. Butler's better.

[celticsclay]

And considering where that 1st rounder is going to be, too much.

It's a lot, to be sure, but not a single one of those pieces is guaranteed to be anywhere near as valuable as Butler.


Butler is:

- A borderline top 10 player
- 27 years old
- Making a little more than half what his market value would be if he were a FA this summer
- Under contract for 3 more seasons after this one

If the Bulls trade him, they will expect to get a ton.  You're getting a superstar two-way wing for 3.5 years of his prime.

I like Butler a good deal, but he is not a borderline top 10 player.  He's arguably not even top 5 at his position.  LeBron, KD, Kawhi, and Paul George are all undisputably ahead of him, and certainly people could make good cases for Giannis and Carmelo as well.  I wouldn't object to anyone who wanted to through Hayward in the mix, either.  And then there are all sorts of bigs and guards ahead of him too.

Also, he will certainly opt out of his contract for the final year, so you're only getting him for 2.5 years.

Finally, once his trade bonus is accounted for, his cap hit next year will be about $20 million, or 2/3 of the ~$30 million he'd get on the open market.  Still a discount, but significantly more than half.

He's a really good player, and it would be a great acquisition.  But he's not a history-altering player, which is the package you seem to have gotten behind.  It would not surprise me at all if in three years that draft pick were better than Jimmy Butler.  Throwing piles of players and picks on top of it is unnecessary. It is a really, really good draft at the top.  The Bulls will get a player that will make their fans forget about Jimmy Butler in a hurry.  If they do it quickly enough such that they fall down the standings, they could get two.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that PG is better than Butler. And suggesting that Melo is even remotely comparable is comical. Butler's been fantastic this year; he's borderline top 10.

i have to agree with this. Carmelo at 32 is worst at everything than Butler right now. On defense carmelo is not even the same league. How can you really think they are similar? 

[max215]

And considering where that 1st rounder is going to be, too much.

It's a lot, to be sure, but not a single one of those pieces is guaranteed to be anywhere near as valuable as Butler.


Butler is:

- A borderline top 10 player
- 27 years old
- Making a little more than half what his market value would be if he were a FA this summer
- Under contract for 3 more seasons after this one

If the Bulls trade him, they will expect to get a ton.  You're getting a superstar two-way wing for 3.5 years of his prime.

I like Butler a good deal, but he is not a borderline top 10 player.  He's arguably not even top 5 at his position.  LeBron, KD, Kawhi, and Paul George are all undisputably ahead of him, and certainly people could make good cases for Giannis and Carmelo as well.  I wouldn't object to anyone who wanted to through Hayward in the mix, either.  And then there are all sorts of bigs and guards ahead of him too.

Also, he will certainly opt out of his contract for the final year, so you're only getting him for 2.5 years.

Finally, once his trade bonus is accounted for, his cap hit next year will be about $20 million, or 2/3 of the ~$30 million he'd get on the open market.  Still a discount, but significantly more than half.

He's a really good player, and it would be a great acquisition.  But he's not a history-altering player, which is the package you seem to have gotten behind.  It would not surprise me at all if in three years that draft pick were better than Jimmy Butler.  Throwing piles of players and picks on top of it is unnecessary. It is a really, really good draft at the top.  The Bulls will get a player that will make their fans forget about Jimmy Butler in a hurry.  If they do it quickly enough such that they fall down the standings, they could get two.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that PG is better than Butler. And suggesting that Melo is even remotely comparable is comical. Butler's been fantastic this year; he's borderline top 10.

i have to agree with this. Carmelo at 32 is worst at everything than Butler right now. On defense carmelo is not even the same league. How can you really think they are similar?

Carmelo isn't even in Butler's league on OFFENSE, and that's where Melo "excells."

[PhoSita]

What if they want to include Rondo?

Also, having signed Wade, do they want to go into a full rebuild? That wouldn't seem fair. Would they rather have a starter and get a third team involved to get another starter?

What about the Nuggets get the 2018 Brooklyn pick (with Johnson and Jerebko for salary matching).
The Bulls get Bradley, Gallinari, Clippers pick, and Memphis pick.
The Celtics get Mirotic and Butler.

I think both Wade and Rondo have player options for next year.  In Rondo's case, it's partially guaranteed even if he exercises it.

So, nothing really stopping Chicago from going full-on rebuild assuming Wade opts out (which he should).

[Phantom255x]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

[saltlover]

And considering where that 1st rounder is going to be, too much.

It's a lot, to be sure, but not a single one of those pieces is guaranteed to be anywhere near as valuable as Butler.


Butler is:

- A borderline top 10 player
- 27 years old
- Making a little more than half what his market value would be if he were a FA this summer
- Under contract for 3 more seasons after this one

If the Bulls trade him, they will expect to get a ton.  You're getting a superstar two-way wing for 3.5 years of his prime.

I like Butler a good deal, but he is not a borderline top 10 player.  He's arguably not even top 5 at his position.  LeBron, KD, Kawhi, and Paul George are all undisputably ahead of him, and certainly people could make good cases for Giannis and Carmelo as well.  I wouldn't object to anyone who wanted to through Hayward in the mix, either.  And then there are all sorts of bigs and guards ahead of him too.

Also, he will certainly opt out of his contract for the final year, so you're only getting him for 2.5 years.

Finally, once his trade bonus is accounted for, his cap hit next year will be about $20 million, or 2/3 of the ~$30 million he'd get on the open market.  Still a discount, but significantly more than half.

He's a really good player, and it would be a great acquisition.  But he's not a history-altering player, which is the package you seem to have gotten behind.  It would not surprise me at all if in three years that draft pick were better than Jimmy Butler.  Throwing piles of players and picks on top of it is unnecessary. It is a really, really good draft at the top.  The Bulls will get a player that will make their fans forget about Jimmy Butler in a hurry.  If they do it quickly enough such that they fall down the standings, they could get two.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that PG is better than Butler. And suggesting that Melo is even remotely comparable is comical. Butler's been fantastic this year; he's borderline top 10.

i have to agree with this. Carmelo at 32 is worst at everything than Butler right now. On defense carmelo is not even the same league. How can you really think they are similar?

Ignore Melo.  Not worth arguing about.  I'd personally fight for Giannis most, myself.

The point remains, it's questionable whether Butler is even a top 5 SF, and we haven't even talked about PF, Centers, SG, and PG yet.  Are you putting him above Westbrook?  Harden?  Curry?  Klay? Davis?  Kyrie? Cousins? Lowry? DeRozan? Draymond? Towns? Aldridge? Paul?  Lillard? Wall? Walker?  I'm not even including IT on this list, because there are enough threads on this forum debating his worth.

If you want to say Jimmy Butler is a top 20 player, I'm not going to fight it.  But borderline top 10 is nonsense.  There are obviously 10 players better than him in the NBA.  Top 10 gets you MVP votes.  He's never gotten those, and is not getting those this year, nor should he.  He's a very good player.  He'd probably be the best player on this team.  He would be a great addition.  But there's no reason to overrate him.  There are a lot of really good players in the NBA, and Jimmy Butler is one of them, but "borderline top 10" he is not.

[tankcity!]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Sign me the F up.

[blink]

I was much more pro-Butler this past off-season.  Sort've swung the other way now given the way the Celtics currently are playing, the increasing value of the BKN pick, and the expected cost to acquire him.   

Think he'd be a much better addition to this team than some of the other names floating around the boards (Hayward, for once).  But, I'm not sure the addition by subtraction here would make the Celtics that much better than currently constituted.

I pretty much agree, last year or even over the summer I would have done this, but with the Nets currently in the cellar and Jaylen Brown getting better every day, I would be really tempted to keep the pick depending on where the nets are at the trade deadline.

I know everyone want to win this year, or next year, but we might be able to assemble a better team in the long run with using those two nets picks to get great young cost controlled talent.  A couple years from now once Lebron is a bit older, and GS eventually needs to give up key parts of their team might be a better time to peak.  I think IT and Horford will still be good in 2 years.

I would be more willing to empty the cupboard for a PF or C big guy that can shoot and defend. 

[blink]

So do you think Danny prefers trading Crowder or Bradley in this scenario, and who do you think other teams, specifically the Bulls, would prefer?

I think there's pros and cons for both sides:

Pro keeping Bradley - While Crowder has a higher percentage from beyond the arc right now, I think Bradley's 40+% beyond the arc shooting is more sustainable. Also, Bradley's defense on the Irvings, Lowrys, and Currys of the world will be needed in the playoffs.

Pro keeping Crowder - Crowder's contract is ridiculous, and trading Bradley would help us solve that issue in 2018, along with keeping a cost-controlled starter in an era of huge contracts. Also, adding Butler at the 2 and keeping Crowder would give us much more needed size in the starting lineup. Finally, that would allow a really ridiculous small-ball lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford that can challenge the "death lineups" of Cleveland and Golden State.

This is my ignorant Q of the day...is Butler able to play big minutes at the 2?  I don't watch enough bulls games to know.

[saltlover]

So do you think Danny prefers trading Crowder or Bradley in this scenario, and who do you think other teams, specifically the Bulls, would prefer?

I think there's pros and cons for both sides:

Pro keeping Bradley - While Crowder has a higher percentage from beyond the arc right now, I think Bradley's 40+% beyond the arc shooting is more sustainable. Also, Bradley's defense on the Irvings, Lowrys, and Currys of the world will be needed in the playoffs.

Pro keeping Crowder - Crowder's contract is ridiculous, and trading Bradley would help us solve that issue in 2018, along with keeping a cost-controlled starter in an era of huge contracts. Also, adding Butler at the 2 and keeping Crowder would give us much more needed size in the starting lineup. Finally, that would allow a really ridiculous small-ball lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford that can challenge the "death lineups" of Cleveland and Golden State.

This is my ignorant Q of the day...is Butler able to play big minutes at the 2?  I don't watch enough bulls games to know.

Yes, but guarding 2s and 3s, not switching onto PGs as Bradley often does.  He's a traditional wing in Stevens parlance.

[rondohondo]

So do you think Danny prefers trading Crowder or Bradley in this scenario, and who do you think other teams, specifically the Bulls, would prefer?

I think there's pros and cons for both sides:

Pro keeping Bradley - While Crowder has a higher percentage from beyond the arc right now, I think Bradley's 40+% beyond the arc shooting is more sustainable. Also, Bradley's defense on the Irvings, Lowrys, and Currys of the world will be needed in the playoffs.

Pro keeping Crowder - Crowder's contract is ridiculous, and trading Bradley would help us solve that issue in 2018, along with keeping a cost-controlled starter in an era of huge contracts. Also, adding Butler at the 2 and keeping Crowder would give us much more needed size in the starting lineup. Finally, that would allow a really ridiculous small-ball lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford that can challenge the "death lineups" of Cleveland and Golden State.

This is my ignorant Q of the day...is Butler able to play big minutes at the 2?  I don't watch enough bulls games to know.
[/quote . We need Bradleys shooting because Butler isn't great from long distance.

[jpotter33]

So do you think Danny prefers trading Crowder or Bradley in this scenario, and who do you think other teams, specifically the Bulls, would prefer?

I think there's pros and cons for both sides:

Pro keeping Bradley - While Crowder has a higher percentage from beyond the arc right now, I think Bradley's 40+% beyond the arc shooting is more sustainable. Also, Bradley's defense on the Irvings, Lowrys, and Currys of the world will be needed in the playoffs.

Pro keeping Crowder - Crowder's contract is ridiculous, and trading Bradley would help us solve that issue in 2018, along with keeping a cost-controlled starter in an era of huge contracts. Also, adding Butler at the 2 and keeping Crowder would give us much more needed size in the starting lineup. Finally, that would allow a really ridiculous small-ball lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford that can challenge the "death lineups" of Cleveland and Golden State.

This is my ignorant Q of the day...is Butler able to play big minutes at the 2?  I don't watch enough bulls games to know.

Yes, but guarding 2s and 3s, not switching onto PGs as Bradley often does.  He's a traditional wing in Stevens parlance.

And a Butler, Crowder, Horford 2,3,4 is ideal for both Cleveland and GS, where all three of them can switch onto the Lebrons/Durants/Klays of the world.

[chilidawg]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Sign me the F up.

In a heart beat.  If we're getting Butler I'm not sure what we're saving cap space for.  I'd like Lopez as an off the bench defensive big.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[rondohondo]

We are giving up 17 brk pick or Jaylen for Butler.