Bucher: Bulls shopping Butler

[celticsclay]

And considering where that 1st rounder is going to be, too much.

It's a lot, to be sure, but not a single one of those pieces is guaranteed to be anywhere near as valuable as Butler.


Butler is:

- A borderline top 10 player
- 27 years old
- Making a little more than half what his market value would be if he were a FA this summer
- Under contract for 3 more seasons after this one

If the Bulls trade him, they will expect to get a ton.  You're getting a superstar two-way wing for 3.5 years of his prime.

I like Butler a good deal, but he is not a borderline top 10 player.  He's arguably not even top 5 at his position.  LeBron, KD, Kawhi, and Paul George are all undisputably ahead of him, and certainly people could make good cases for Giannis and Carmelo as well.  I wouldn't object to anyone who wanted to through Hayward in the mix, either.  And then there are all sorts of bigs and guards ahead of him too.

Also, he will certainly opt out of his contract for the final year, so you're only getting him for 2.5 years.

Finally, once his trade bonus is accounted for, his cap hit next year will be about $20 million, or 2/3 of the ~$30 million he'd get on the open market.  Still a discount, but significantly more than half.

He's a really good player, and it would be a great acquisition.  But he's not a history-altering player, which is the package you seem to have gotten behind.  It would not surprise me at all if in three years that draft pick were better than Jimmy Butler.  Throwing piles of players and picks on top of it is unnecessary. It is a really, really good draft at the top.  The Bulls will get a player that will make their fans forget about Jimmy Butler in a hurry.  If they do it quickly enough such that they fall down the standings, they could get two.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that PG is better than Butler. And suggesting that Melo is even remotely comparable is comical. Butler's been fantastic this year; he's borderline top 10.

i have to agree with this. Carmelo at 32 is worst at everything than Butler right now. On defense carmelo is not even the same league. How can you really think they are similar?

Ignore Melo.  Not worth arguing about.  I'd personally fight for Giannis most, myself.

The point remains, it's questionable whether Butler is even a top 5 SF, and we haven't even talked about PF, Centers, SG, and PG yet.  Are you putting him above Westbrook?  Harden?  Curry?  Klay? Davis?  Kyrie? Cousins? Lowry? DeRozan? Draymond? Towns? Aldridge? Paul?  Lillard? Wall? Walker?  I'm not even including IT on this list, because there are enough threads on this forum debating his worth.

If you want to say Jimmy Butler is a top 20 player, I'm not going to fight it.  But borderline top 10 is nonsense.  There are obviously 10 players better than him in the NBA.  Top 10 gets you MVP votes.  He's never gotten those, and is not getting those this year, nor should he.  He's a very good player.  He'd probably be the best player on this team.  He would be a great addition.  But there's no reason to overrate him.  There are a lot of really good players in the NBA, and Jimmy Butler is one of them, but "borderline top 10" he is not.

You can't really throw out a ridiculous comparison like Melo and Butler and then say it is "not worth getting into." I am really fascinated what you think Carmelo is as good as Butler at right now? Related to the other players you listed very many of them are already worse than Butler a lot will be much worse than him soon.

Of the players you mention he is superior to Derozen. He is a two way player and Derozen is not. Butler is also more versatile on offense.

He is better than Aldridge, He is better than Towns (Towns is awful at defense for now), he is better than Walker, He is probably better than Draymond and Klay (but I admit it is nearly impossible to judge those guys fairly playing along Curry and together). He is probably pretty similar to Kyrie and Wall. I would rather have him than Lillard.

Players like Paul and Lowry are similar to him but Lowry turns 31 in a few months and Paul is getting to be pretty injury prone at 31. I may rather have one of those guys for a season, particularly Paul, but beyond that it is definitely Butler.

In general this list of players shows me you are overvaluing players that are good on offense but very bad on defense. Players like Lillard, Aldridge and Towns and Melo and Derozen are great one way players. Butler is actually a really good defensive player AND a great defensive player. You seem to missing on this and is probably why you think he is overrated.

[jambr380]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Deal sounds great and I would be more than happy to bring in Gibson, but there would be no max salary slot next year even if we let him and KO walk. As part of the proposed deal, we only have $8M in salary going out for next year while bringing in $19M. Amir is expiring so he does not count against next year's cap.

I am not for it, but a deal that sends out AB, Crowder, and the '17 pick (or Brown) actually does leave that max (or almost max) slot open since all of them are signed through at least next year.

[positivitize]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

[Phantom255x]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Deal sounds great and I would be more than happy to bring in Gibson, but there would be no max salary slot next year even if we let him and KO walk. As part of the proposed deal, we only have $8M in salary going out for next year while bringing in $19M. Amir is expiring so he does not count against next year's cap.

I am not for it, but a deal that sends out AB, Crowder, and the '17 pick (or Brown) actually does leave that max (or almost max) slot open since all of them are signed through at least next year.

That deal you propose (AB, Crowder, 2017 Nets Pick - Likely Top-2) is a HUGE overpay. If that's the price, then count me out.

[Phantom255x]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

Even with one of the Nets Picks included... I find it hard to believe Chicago does any Jimmy Butler deal with Boston without any of Crowder/Bradley. If it's the 2017 Nets Pick, maybe you can do it without any of Crowder/Bradley.. but who knows.

[Ilikesports17]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

Even with one of the Nets Picks included... I find it hard to believe Chicago does any Jimmy Butler deal with Boston without any of Crowder/Bradley. If it's the 2017 Nets Pick, maybe you can do it without any of Crowder/Bradley.. but who knows.

Plus keeping AB Crowder Brown and adding Butler makes no sense.

At the very very least one of those guys will go in a deal.

[Phantom255x]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

Even with one of the Nets Picks included... I find it hard to believe Chicago does any Jimmy Butler deal with Boston without any of Crowder/Bradley. If it's the 2017 Nets Pick, maybe you can do it without any of Crowder/Bradley.. but who knows.

Plus keeping AB Crowder Brown and adding Butler makes no sense.

At the very very least one of those guys will go in a deal.

Hate to say it, but probably Bradley. Butler makes 19M/Year and Bradley becomes a FA in 2018.

That way, you can extend IT and Smart after 2018 and roll with Butler, Crowder and Brown as well.

[NHCelticsFan]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

Even with one of the Nets Picks included... I find it hard to believe Chicago does any Jimmy Butler deal with Boston without any of Crowder/Bradley. If it's the 2017 Nets Pick, maybe you can do it without any of Crowder/Bradley.. but who knows.

Plus keeping AB Crowder Brown and adding Butler makes no sense.

At the very very least one of those guys will go in a deal.

Hate to say it, but probably Bradley. Butler makes 19M/Year and Bradley becomes a FA in 2018.

That way, you can extend IT and Smart after 2018 and roll with Butler, Crowder and Brown as well.

If they are trading Butler I would imagine they would want Brown so as to have a future building block.  Add to that their own pick, which would most likely end up in the lottery, plus a potential Nets pick either this year or next year and they would be well on their way to rebuilding.

[Phantom255x]

Off Limits:

IT, Horford, Jae, Smart, Brown, Bradley, and ONE of 2017/2018 Nets picks.

If they can make it work around that, well, welcome to the team Jimmy.

Maybe KO, Rozier, Jerebko, 2017 Nets 1st, 2019 Griz 1st, 1-10 Protected Bos 2018 1st, 2017 Minn 2nd. That's 3 1st round picks (with this year's likely being top 4 in a talented draft), some young talent in Rozier, A serviceable vet in Jerebko, and an expiring in KO--Along with a decent 2nd round pick this year. Chicago still says no, but this is a trade that I could get behind.

Y'all mo fos need to chill and leave my boys Smart and Brown out of this trade.

We'd be even thinner up front this year, but we could make due--Especially if we play a ton of small ball. The Team would look something like:

Starters------Bench
IT------------Smart
Butler--------Bradley
Crowder------Brown, Green
Amir----------Brown, Mickey
Horford-------Zeller

I figure PG, SG, and SF will be split between IT, Smart, Butler, Bradley, Crowder,  Brown, and Green.
PF and C would be split between Horford, Zeller, Amir, Brown, Mickey, and sometimes Crowder or Smart. We could make it work. We keep our leading rebounder on our team with this trade.

Even with one of the Nets Picks included... I find it hard to believe Chicago does any Jimmy Butler deal with Boston without any of Crowder/Bradley. If it's the 2017 Nets Pick, maybe you can do it without any of Crowder/Bradley.. but who knows.

Plus keeping AB Crowder Brown and adding Butler makes no sense.

At the very very least one of those guys will go in a deal.

Hate to say it, but probably Bradley. Butler makes 19M/Year and Bradley becomes a FA in 2018.

That way, you can extend IT and Smart after 2018 and roll with Butler, Crowder and Brown as well.

If they are trading Butler I would imagine they would want Brown so as to have a future building block.  Add to that their own pick, which would most likely end up in the lottery, plus a potential Nets pick either this year or next year and they would be well on their way to rebuilding.

Probably next year's Nets Pick.

Although I don't think Ainge is willing to trade both the 2017 Nets Pick + Brown + more for Jimmy Butler. Which is why I don't think that certain deal happens.

[Phantom255x]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88416.0

So as I said in this post^, I have a Chicago friend (also a diehard Bulls fan) who said he thinks Chicago will sell real soon, especially with a brutal stretch coming up (could push them out of the playoffs too). I asked him what he would want from Boston in a Jimmy Butler deal, and what he proposed actually sounds nice:

Boston Sends: Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, 2017 Minnesota Second Rounder, 2018 Brooklyn Nets Pick, and 2019 Grizzlies OR Clippers First Rounder, another future second rounder

Chicago Sends: Jimmy Butler, either Taj Gibson/Robin Lopez

He said he's not sure the C's take Robin Lopez because Ainge probably wants to go into the summer with a max-contract slot available, and adding Lopez would make that impossible because he's under contract.

I mean, you keep the 2017 Nets Pick and Jaylen Brown.. and while you have to gulp while losing Bradley.. you get Butler at 19M/year for next 2.5 seasons, and it makes it easier to extend Isaiah Thomas and Marcus Smart going forward (after 2018).

What do you guys think of the idea?

Deal sounds great and I would be more than happy to bring in Gibson, but there would be no max salary slot next year even if we let him and KO walk. As part of the proposed deal, we only have $8M in salary going out for next year while bringing in $19M. Amir is expiring so he does not count against next year's cap.

I am not for it, but a deal that sends out AB, Crowder, and the '17 pick (or Brown) actually does leave that max (or almost max) slot open since all of them are signed through at least next year.

Would you take back Robin Lopez in the deal as well then? If we aren't going to have a max-salary slot available anyways?

[LarBrd33]

Hard pass if it costs what they were reportedly asking this SUmmer ... #3, #16, Avery and Crowder.  Despite the recent 52 point game by Butler,  I still think Avery gives you 75% of what Butler does.  Premium Brand Ricky Davis isn't moving the needle if it costs us Avery and Crowder. 

I'm a firm No if it costs us the 2017 Brooklyn pick as well.  Would rather just keep the pick and try to sign Hayward with our cap space.

[max215]

And considering where that 1st rounder is going to be, too much.

It's a lot, to be sure, but not a single one of those pieces is guaranteed to be anywhere near as valuable as Butler.


Butler is:

- A borderline top 10 player
- 27 years old
- Making a little more than half what his market value would be if he were a FA this summer
- Under contract for 3 more seasons after this one

If the Bulls trade him, they will expect to get a ton.  You're getting a superstar two-way wing for 3.5 years of his prime.

I like Butler a good deal, but he is not a borderline top 10 player.  He's arguably not even top 5 at his position.  LeBron, KD, Kawhi, and Paul George are all undisputably ahead of him, and certainly people could make good cases for Giannis and Carmelo as well.  I wouldn't object to anyone who wanted to through Hayward in the mix, either.  And then there are all sorts of bigs and guards ahead of him too.

Also, he will certainly opt out of his contract for the final year, so you're only getting him for 2.5 years.

Finally, once his trade bonus is accounted for, his cap hit next year will be about $20 million, or 2/3 of the ~$30 million he'd get on the open market.  Still a discount, but significantly more than half.

He's a really good player, and it would be a great acquisition.  But he's not a history-altering player, which is the package you seem to have gotten behind.  It would not surprise me at all if in three years that draft pick were better than Jimmy Butler.  Throwing piles of players and picks on top of it is unnecessary. It is a really, really good draft at the top.  The Bulls will get a player that will make their fans forget about Jimmy Butler in a hurry.  If they do it quickly enough such that they fall down the standings, they could get two.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that PG is better than Butler. And suggesting that Melo is even remotely comparable is comical. Butler's been fantastic this year; he's borderline top 10.

i have to agree with this. Carmelo at 32 is worst at everything than Butler right now. On defense carmelo is not even the same league. How can you really think they are similar?

Ignore Melo.  Not worth arguing about.  I'd personally fight for Giannis most, myself.

The point remains, it's questionable whether Butler is even a top 5 SF, and we haven't even talked about PF, Centers, SG, and PG yet.  Are you putting him above Westbrook?  Harden?  Curry?  Klay? Davis?  Kyrie? Cousins? Lowry? DeRozan? Draymond? Towns? Aldridge? Paul?  Lillard? Wall? Walker?  I'm not even including IT on this list, because there are enough threads on this forum debating his worth.

If you want to say Jimmy Butler is a top 20 player, I'm not going to fight it.  But borderline top 10 is nonsense.  There are obviously 10 players better than him in the NBA.  Top 10 gets you MVP votes.  He's never gotten those, and is not getting those this year, nor should he.  He's a very good player.  He'd probably be the best player on this team.  He would be a great addition.  But there's no reason to overrate him.  There are a lot of really good players in the NBA, and Jimmy Butler is one of them, but "borderline top 10" he is not.

I'd say the majority of the guys you named are worse than Butler.

Bron
Harden
KD
Russ
Curry
Leonard
Davis
Cousins
Lowry
Giannis

That's 10. After that, Butler enters the discussion for me along with guys like Dray, Marc Gasol, Klay, Isaiah, etc. He probably comes in at 11 or 12, which is borderline top-10.

[mctyson]

Butler and Lopez for Bradley, Crowder, Amir, and some sort of picks?

I mean, I'd love to swap Crowder for Zeller in this package, but I'm doubtful it's going to work.

There is no scenario in any scenario-generator-fantasy land that gives up Crowder & AB for Butler and makes the team better.

[mctyson]

I don't really want Butler. I suspect he'd clash with IT, and there are a lot of holes in his game.

I agree.  Someone has to explain to me when he became the missing piece.  What exactly has Chicago accomplished with him as the main guy?

Boston has accomplished WAY more with IT and Crowder.

[max215]

One thing to consider if deciding between AB and Crowder: Jae and Jimmy are not exactly best buds.