Woj: Sixers plan on moving one of Noel or Okafor "eventually"

[LarBrd33]

I've yet to see anyone on this forum accurately explain what happened with embiid last season. If you started a poll, my guess 95% would say embiid reinjured himself last summer and needed a second surgery.  That's not at all what happened. Read about it.

We said he was hurt.  You said he wasn't.  We were right.  You were wrong.

Mike

thats not what you said.  That's not what I said.  Everyone was wrong on some level. My interpretation of events was fairly accurate.

I don't have time to explain it right now.  I'm at an Okafor fan meetup writing here real quick from my phone while I squeeze out some digested crow in the water closet.

[LarBrd33]

Couple weeks ago:

Oh, Embiid. Not even close. If Embiid’s healthy, we’re talking about, I’m not going to say a generational player, but I’m talking about a franchise-changer. I think the world of Embiid. If healthy, I find the the league is going to have a hard time with him. If healthy. But that’s a huge ‘if!’ In a sense, because of missing these two years, if the foot is healed, it might lead to something else that’s messed up. The health thing is huge with him. With Jabari Parker, I’m not trying to throw that in there, [with] the ACL; it’s not like a reoccurring thing. Big men, seven foot, seven-one now, 280 pounds, moves as athletic as he is, the foot is a big, big deal… But if he is healthy… In two years, he’s the best big man. He will surpass Karl-Anthony Towns as the future of the big men.”
Scalabrine reiterated how big a question mark Embiid’s health is:

“That ‘if’ is huge! He might have minute restrictions for the next two years, or something like that. But if he comes back where he has no restrictions whatsoever, Embiid is a flat-out stud. He is a stud of this league.”

I've seen several others say healthy embiid will be better than towns. I'd share more, but I'm tired of teaching you how to google and the above quote should once again sufficiently prove that you like to make up that I make things up.

The problem is that I think that "If" is going to be a recurring theme throughout his career.

no more so than Kevin durant, really.

Dude, are you really that blind? The guy didn't even make it through his lone college season with yet another stress fracture (back) and has missed both of his first two seasons. Durant? Really? That's the health comparison?

dude, embiid could have played last year if they didn't care about his long term health.  They didn't want to risk injury - hence the bone graft.  Meanwhile, durant played two seasons ago, had problems - bone graft.

They are both living with bone grafts.  So is brook Lopez and he's been able to avoid major injury for a couple years. 

If embiid gets through this season I don't see how he will be seen as a bigger long term health risk than durant.

And this is why no one takes you seriously around here lol Double-standards, delusions of grandeur, and taking things out of context - wash, rinse, repeat, otherwise known as the LarBrd33 posting philosophy!

thats not true at all. People take me very seriously here. 

[Celtics18]

Saw a stat that showed that something like 60-70% of Towns and Porzingis offense came off assists while Okafor only had 30% of his shots come off assists.  That's mainly because Okafor's supporting cast was garbage and he had to create the majority of his own offense while frequently being double teamed.  Imagine how he'll play with some actual competent NBA players next to him and a gifted passer like Simmons creating offense for him.   There's actually a fairly good chance that Okafor will look dramatically improved next season. 

I think this is a highly flawed interpretation of the given statistic.  I am sure that most basketball people correctly understand that the primary reason that the percentage of field goals assisted for Okafor is so low is because he has almost no off-the-ball skill.  Both Towns and Porzingis are very effective shooting jump shots off the catch.  This is not a part of Okafor's game.  Both Towns and Porzingis are also good targets as finishers on rolls to the rim.  Also, not a significant part of Okafor's game.

These are the reasons why, despite his very good scoring numbers and sublime post skills, I, and many others, worry about what kind of offensive player he'll be for an NBA team.  I'm not saying he definitely can't develop as a shooter off the catch or a finisher off the roll or he can't become an adequate passer out of the post ever.  Maybe he will be able to add some or all of those aspects to his game eventually.  It's certainly far from a given, though.  And this makes him a significant risk.  He's the kind of player who, if he doesn't expand his game significantly, will probably always be more of a net negative than a positive.  It's not like he's a guy who you can just ask to be a role player. 

He needs the ball in his hands--he needs to be the focus--to score the ball.  That's why his shots assisted numbers are so low.  It's not because nobody on the Sixers could get him the ball.

[LarBrd33]

Saw a stat that showed that something like 60-70% of Towns and Porzingis offense came off assists while Okafor only had 30% of his shots come off assists.  That's mainly because Okafor's supporting cast was garbage and he had to create the majority of his own offense while frequently being double teamed.  Imagine how he'll play with some actual competent NBA players next to him and a gifted passer like Simmons creating offense for him.   There's actually a fairly good chance that Okafor will look dramatically improved next season. 

I think this is a highly flawed interpretation of the given statistic.  I am sure that most basketball people correctly understand that the primary reason that the percentage of field goals assisted for Okafor is so low is because he has almost no off-the-ball skill.  Both Towns and Porzingis are very effective shooting jump shots off the catch.  This is not a part of Okafor's game.  Both Towns and Porzingis are also good targets as finishers on rolls to the rim.  Also, not a significant part of Okafor's game.

These are the reasons why, despite his very good scoring numbers and sublime post skills, I, and many others, worry about what kind of offensive player he'll be for an NBA team.  I'm not saying he definitely can't develop as a shooter off the catch or a finisher off the roll or he can't become an adequate passer out of the post ever.  Maybe he will be able to add some or all of those aspects to his game eventually.  It's certainly far from a given, though.  And this makes him a significant risk.  He's the kind of player who, if he doesn't expand his game significantly, will probably always be more of a net negative than a positive.  It's not like he's a guy who you can just ask to be a role player. 

He needs the ball in his hands--he needs to be the focus--to score the ball.  That's why his shots assisted numbers are so low.  It's not because nobody on the Sixers could get him the ball.

chicken and egg.  See my extensive post on Okafor. Already addressed this.

[Celtics18]

Saw a stat that showed that something like 60-70% of Towns and Porzingis offense came off assists while Okafor only had 30% of his shots come off assists.  That's mainly because Okafor's supporting cast was garbage and he had to create the majority of his own offense while frequently being double teamed.  Imagine how he'll play with some actual competent NBA players next to him and a gifted passer like Simmons creating offense for him.   There's actually a fairly good chance that Okafor will look dramatically improved next season. 

I think this is a highly flawed interpretation of the given statistic.  I am sure that most basketball people correctly understand that the primary reason that the percentage of field goals assisted for Okafor is so low is because he has almost no off-the-ball skill.  Both Towns and Porzingis are very effective shooting jump shots off the catch.  This is not a part of Okafor's game.  Both Towns and Porzingis are also good targets as finishers on rolls to the rim.  Also, not a significant part of Okafor's game.

These are the reasons why, despite his very good scoring numbers and sublime post skills, I, and many others, worry about what kind of offensive player he'll be for an NBA team.  I'm not saying he definitely can't develop as a shooter off the catch or a finisher off the roll or he can't become an adequate passer out of the post ever.  Maybe he will be able to add some or all of those aspects to his game eventually.  It's certainly far from a given, though.  And this makes him a significant risk.  He's the kind of player who, if he doesn't expand his game significantly, will probably always be more of a net negative than a positive.  It's not like he's a guy who you can just ask to be a role player. 

He needs the ball in his hands--he needs to be the focus--to score the ball.  That's why his shots assisted numbers are so low.  It's not because nobody on the Sixers could get him the ball.

chicken and egg.  See my extensive post on Okafor. Already addressed this.

What page?

[MBunge]

Larbrd is right. Embiid has no health issues at this time

larbrd never said that.  Larbrd said that if embiid makes it through a full season without issue, the level of concern about his future would be comparable to durant right now.  larbrd also educated you on the reality that embiid would have played last season in another era.  They wanted to be extra careful and avoid a potential oden situation.

also, larbrd wasn't "completed totally wrong" about embiid last time. When info came out, it essentially vindicated larbrd and proved him far more right than anyone on this forum.  Larbrd ate a bunch of unwarranted crow, but upon learning his hunches were accurate, larbrd shoved his fingers down his gullet and spewed said crow out for the rest of the ninnies to slurp up.

I've yet to see anyone on this forum accurately explain what happened with embiid last season. If you started a poll, my guess 95% would say embiid reinjured himself last summer and needed a second surgery.  That's not at all what happened. Read about it.

Please supply the evidence from unbiased sources that back up what you are saying. 

Mike

Research it yourself.

You are the one who spends a bizarre amount of time and effort on a Celtics board praising and defending a 76er team while that team has been one of the worst in the history of the NBA.  You've also been proven wrong repeatedly.  The burden of proof is on you.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Larbrd is right. Embiid has no health issues at this time

larbrd never said that.  Larbrd said that if embiid makes it through a full season without issue, the level of concern about his future would be comparable to durant right now.  larbrd also educated you on the reality that embiid would have played last season in another era.  They wanted to be extra careful and avoid a potential oden situation.

also, larbrd wasn't "completed totally wrong" about embiid last time. When info came out, it essentially vindicated larbrd and proved him far more right than anyone on this forum.  Larbrd ate a bunch of unwarranted crow, but upon learning his hunches were accurate, larbrd shoved his fingers down his gullet and spewed said crow out for the rest of the ninnies to slurp up.

I've yet to see anyone on this forum accurately explain what happened with embiid last season. If you started a poll, my guess 95% would say embiid reinjured himself last summer and needed a second surgery.  That's not at all what happened. Read about it.

Please supply the evidence from unbiased sources that back up what you are saying. 

Mike

Research it yourself.

You are the one who spends a bizarre amount of time and effort on a Celtics board praising and defending a 76er team while that team has been one of the worst in the history of the NBA.  You've also been proven wrong repeatedly.  The burden of proof is on you.

Mike

I'll comment on this later.  We are doing okaforaoke... We do karaoke of popular songs with lyrics replaced with #Prokafor propaganda. 

[Celtics18]

TJ McConnell and Ish Smith were both in the top ten in assist percentage in the NBA last season.  They each played over 1600 minutes for the Sixers.  There were passers on that Philly team.  Nerlens Noel, for example, as a rim roller, got plenty of assisted baskets with either of those two pass first point guards running the pick and roll.  If the Sixers had had a "pop" big to go along with Nerlens' rolling, they would have been in much better shape.  But, Okafor wasn't that.  Instead, he was a player who you basically dumped the ball into, cleared out, and watched go to work. 

Even with a low post player as talented as Okafor, anyone with a sense for the game would surmise that this would amount to fairly inefficient basketball.  And it did.  The on court/off court numbers for Okafor were among the worst in the league.  I realize this does not amount to conclusive evidence on its own.  But, in this case the overall on/off numbers support some very legitimate concerns about Jah Okafor's game.

[jpotter33]

Couple weeks ago:

Oh, Embiid. Not even close. If Embiid’s healthy, we’re talking about, I’m not going to say a generational player, but I’m talking about a franchise-changer. I think the world of Embiid. If healthy, I find the the league is going to have a hard time with him. If healthy. But that’s a huge ‘if!’ In a sense, because of missing these two years, if the foot is healed, it might lead to something else that’s messed up. The health thing is huge with him. With Jabari Parker, I’m not trying to throw that in there, [with] the ACL; it’s not like a reoccurring thing. Big men, seven foot, seven-one now, 280 pounds, moves as athletic as he is, the foot is a big, big deal… But if he is healthy… In two years, he’s the best big man. He will surpass Karl-Anthony Towns as the future of the big men.”
Scalabrine reiterated how big a question mark Embiid’s health is:

“That ‘if’ is huge! He might have minute restrictions for the next two years, or something like that. But if he comes back where he has no restrictions whatsoever, Embiid is a flat-out stud. He is a stud of this league.”

I've seen several others say healthy embiid will be better than towns. I'd share more, but I'm tired of teaching you how to google and the above quote should once again sufficiently prove that you like to make up that I make things up.

The problem is that I think that "If" is going to be a recurring theme throughout his career.

no more so than Kevin durant, really.

Dude, are you really that blind? The guy didn't even make it through his lone college season with yet another stress fracture (back) and has missed both of his first two seasons. Durant? Really? That's the health comparison?

dude, embiid could have played last year if they didn't care about his long term health.  They didn't want to risk injury - hence the bone graft.  Meanwhile, durant played two seasons ago, had problems - bone graft.

They are both living with bone grafts.  So is brook Lopez and he's been able to avoid major injury for a couple years. 

If embiid gets through this season I don't see how he will be seen as a bigger long term health risk than durant.

And this is why no one takes you seriously around here lol Double-standards, delusions of grandeur, and taking things out of context - wash, rinse, repeat, otherwise known as the LarBrd33 posting philosophy!

thats not true at all. People take me very seriously here.

[moiso]

Larbrd is right. Embiid has no health issues at this time

larbrd never said that.  Larbrd said that if embiid makes it through a full season without issue, the level of concern about his future would be comparable to durant right now.  larbrd also educated you on the reality that embiid would have played last season in another era.  They wanted to be extra careful and avoid a potential oden situation.

also, larbrd wasn't "completed totally wrong" about embiid last time. When info came out, it essentially vindicated larbrd and proved him far more right than anyone on this forum.  Larbrd ate a bunch of unwarranted crow, but upon learning his hunches were accurate, larbrd shoved his fingers down his gullet and spewed said crow out for the rest of the ninnies to slurp up.

I've yet to see anyone on this forum accurately explain what happened with embiid last season. If you started a poll, my guess 95% would say embiid reinjured himself last summer and needed a second surgery.  That's not at all what happened. Read about it.

Please supply the evidence from unbiased sources that back up what you are saying. 

Mike

Research it yourself.  Extensive articles have been written with interviews with his doctor that performed the bone graft and why the decision was made to do it in spite of the fact embiid believed he was 100%, felt no pain, and was dominating everyone in practices.

That's actually the one reason for concern when embiid says he's 100% right now ... He thought he was fine last year too and they were not comfortable letting him risk reinjury without a bone graft procedure.

Therefore the doctors knew he was not 100% even though Embiid didn't have pain.  Just like someone with extremely high blood pressure can stroke out and die, even though they feel 100% and the doctors know they are not healthy.

If he was healthy he would have played, end of story... Regardless of Embiid's pain level.

[LarBrd33]

Couple weeks ago:

Oh, Embiid. Not even close. If Embiid’s healthy, we’re talking about, I’m not going to say a generational player, but I’m talking about a franchise-changer. I think the world of Embiid. If healthy, I find the the league is going to have a hard time with him. If healthy. But that’s a huge ‘if!’ In a sense, because of missing these two years, if the foot is healed, it might lead to something else that’s messed up. The health thing is huge with him. With Jabari Parker, I’m not trying to throw that in there, [with] the ACL; it’s not like a reoccurring thing. Big men, seven foot, seven-one now, 280 pounds, moves as athletic as he is, the foot is a big, big deal… But if he is healthy… In two years, he’s the best big man. He will surpass Karl-Anthony Towns as the future of the big men.”
Scalabrine reiterated how big a question mark Embiid’s health is:

“That ‘if’ is huge! He might have minute restrictions for the next two years, or something like that. But if he comes back where he has no restrictions whatsoever, Embiid is a flat-out stud. He is a stud of this league.”

I've seen several others say healthy embiid will be better than towns. I'd share more, but I'm tired of teaching you how to google and the above quote should once again sufficiently prove that you like to make up that I make things up.

The problem is that I think that "If" is going to be a recurring theme throughout his career.

no more so than Kevin durant, really.

Dude, are you really that blind? The guy didn't even make it through his lone college season with yet another stress fracture (back) and has missed both of his first two seasons. Durant? Really? That's the health comparison?

dude, embiid could have played last year if they didn't care about his long term health.  They didn't want to risk injury - hence the bone graft.  Meanwhile, durant played two seasons ago, had problems - bone graft.

They are both living with bone grafts.  So is brook Lopez and he's been able to avoid major injury for a couple years. 

If embiid gets through this season I don't see how he will be seen as a bigger long term health risk than durant.

And this is why no one takes you seriously around here lol Double-standards, delusions of grandeur, and taking things out of context - wash, rinse, repeat, otherwise known as the LarBrd33 posting philosophy!

thats not true at all. People take me very seriously here.

Based on the fact Eddie20 keeps sending me PMs telling me my life sucks, I have no friends, and need to be medicated, I'd say that plenty of people here take me seriously.  Deadly seriously.

[LarBrd33]

Larbrd is right. Embiid has no health issues at this time

larbrd never said that.  Larbrd said that if embiid makes it through a full season without issue, the level of concern about his future would be comparable to durant right now.  larbrd also educated you on the reality that embiid would have played last season in another era.  They wanted to be extra careful and avoid a potential oden situation.

also, larbrd wasn't "completed totally wrong" about embiid last time. When info came out, it essentially vindicated larbrd and proved him far more right than anyone on this forum.  Larbrd ate a bunch of unwarranted crow, but upon learning his hunches were accurate, larbrd shoved his fingers down his gullet and spewed said crow out for the rest of the ninnies to slurp up.

I've yet to see anyone on this forum accurately explain what happened with embiid last season. If you started a poll, my guess 95% would say embiid reinjured himself last summer and needed a second surgery.  That's not at all what happened. Read about it.

Please supply the evidence from unbiased sources that back up what you are saying. 

Mike

Research it yourself.  Extensive articles have been written with interviews with his doctor that performed the bone graft and why the decision was made to do it in spite of the fact embiid believed he was 100%, felt no pain, and was dominating everyone in practices.

That's actually the one reason for concern when embiid says he's 100% right now ... He thought he was fine last year too and they were not comfortable letting him risk reinjury without a bone graft procedure.

Therefore the doctors knew he was not 100% even though Embiid didn't have pain.  Just like someone with extremely high blood pressure can stroke out and die, even though they feel 100% and the doctors know they are not healthy.

If he was healthy he would have played, end of story... Regardless of Embiid's pain level.

Philly wasn't at all up front with his situation, but that was my hypothesis last summer based on the limited info available to us.  Unlike most people here, I was curious enough about embiid to actually seek out some articles.  I made it clear at the time that nobody really knew what was going on and all of us were just guessing, but I had read that he was telling people he felt fine and had no pain. There were reports from multiple sources that he was running around and dunking and telling everyone he was fine.  People who knew him backed up this like his former college coach who claimed he had spoken to embiid and that embiid felt fine.  There were reports of him impressing in practices.   Based on what I had read about his first surgery, he was nearing the tail end of when he should have been healed.  Originally he was expected to play summer league but they seemed to be pushing back on that - yet hadn't ruled him out yet.  Nothing I read suggested he had re-broken something.   The team had publicly said that a routine scan revealed that it wasn't yet showing the level of healing they expected.  In reading about the injury and how it healed, as well as speculation from actual doctors who were familiar with that surgery, I came to the guesstimating that the tissue around the bone probably hasn't healed to the point the team was comfortable with risking re-injury. My speculation was that they would have him avoid summer league, but that with the actual regular season still months away, there was still time for it to fully heal and based on the limited info available, I guessed he'd still play. 

It took several months but eventually pretty much all of the details I shared were confirmed publicly by the team and his doctors.  Confirmed he felt no pain. Confirmed he didn't think he was injured anymore.  Confirmed the routine scanning showed less healing than hoped.  I stand by my statement that in another era with a less patient team, embiid probably plays last season.  Maybe the injury gets worse.  Maybe it doesn't.  But lessons have been learned since the days of Bill Walton, Big Z and even Greg Oden.   The team didn't want to do anything that would limit his career in any capacity.  They wanted to ensure that they would do everything possible for him to be healthy long term.  In speaking with multiple doctors, they determined that the best course of action to strengthen the bone long-term was to have a bone graft - a procedure that has thus far been proven successful for Kevin durant (injury free last year) and brook Lopez (2 years injury free since the procedure).   In interviews with the doctor who performed the bone graft they mentioned that embiid had his original surgery before he was drafted and they suggested this might have been the surgery he should have had two years ago - and probably would have had if he had waited until after being drafted to develop a plan.   

While my interpretation of events wasn't entirely accurate (I freely admit I guessed wrong on him playing last season) the many details I contributed to the discussion were in-fact pretty accurate and have mostly been glossed over by the Huey, Dewey, louie troll brigade that likes to exaggerate things I've said in the past.   On the flip side - most of them just guessed that embiid broke his foot "again" and was doomed "cuz oden".  None of them contributed anything of substance to the discussion.  They continue to offer nothing of substance to the discussion. 

I don't blame people for skimming my overly lengthy posts and imagining their own version of my "narratives".  I'm not here to handhold anyone through this.  But those who actually read what I said back then and are reading what I'm saying now would admit I'm far more on point when it comes to this subject than anyone else on this forum. 

I stand by my statement that in a different era, embiid says he feels fine, they brush off his imperfect "80% healed" scan, and they pressure him into suiting up last year. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Brian Scalabrine in believing that a healthy embiid is a game changer.

I stand by my statement that if embiid gets through a fully healthy season (an admittedly big IF, since he could seemingly be ruled out for the rest of his career at any time, I guess), there would be no more concern for his long term health than any of the other players who have successfully survived bone graft surgery (durant and Lopez for instance).   That's just the way it works.  Ray allen and Stephen curry's ankles once were huge concerns - until they weren't.  The narrative that nerlens Noel is a fragile player that could shatter at any time is hardly mentioned outside of disgruntled Celticblog forum posts.   If players prove they can stay on the court, the concerns eventually die out.   Nobody is saying the concerns are over now.   He hasn't played a single game yet.  We will see what happens.  I am undeniably fascinated with the philly experiment.  I have no love for that team and have no rooting interest in their success ... But as a fan of the sport, I'm rooting for embiid. It's a similar delicate balance I had with Kevin durant since 2008 (I live in Seattle). Wanted desperately for Oklahoma to lose, but couldn't bring myself to root against durant on an individual level, because I was always fond of the guy until he spinelessly joined the Warriors.  I'm sure I could sour on embiid at some point as well, but right now I have no reason to root against him other than the impact it will have on Boston's historic rival team.

[moiso]

He wasn't healed enough that the doctors felt comfortable playing him- you just said that.  In other words he wasn't healthy last year even though he felt OK.   And in another era he would have played- that's true but I don't see the point.   Why does that matter?  Science has improved and the players are more valuable.

[LarBrd33]

In other words he wasn't healthy last year even though he felt OK. 

You ever break a chair leg, superglue it together and sit on it?   Feels ok.   You are sitting fine.  If you are ghetto you could probably just sit in that chair for a while.  Maybe it eventually snaps or maybe it doesn't.  If an expert looks at the chair and sees the glue has not made the chair leg as strong as expected and suggests nailing it together for long term integrity, it has nothing to do with whether or not you were able to sit in the chair.  You are just taking some risk every time you sit in it even though it feels 100% to your butt. 

My point is that in a previous era they probably tell embiid to suck it up and get to sittin on that superglued chair leg.

Embiid reportedly felt fine and had no pain.  If that's the case, there was nothing preventing him from physically playing basketball.  In a more ghetto era, he probably plays.   Im not sure how else I can explain this for people to understand.  For years, players have returned and played while not 100% healed and risked reinjury.  Often, reinjury occurs.   The team was adamant they wanted to get embiid to 100% before letting him play again.  When news broke last summer, all that was reported was that a scan showed the level of healing wasn't 100%.  This was surprising news to embiid himself who felt 100%.   The fact that he felt fine but a scan revealed he wasn't fully healed is news I shared here numerous times last summer.  Most just think he broke something again. 

I get its a hard concept to wrap your mind around.  I've been playing basketball for the past 8 years with a partially torn ACL.  My play is the same as it always was.  I'm some short white guy so it doesn't really matter. I risk injuring it more every time I play ball.  Technically my leg is "not healthy"  But had a scan not revealed it, I probably wouldn't even be aware of the issue. If I was a multi million dollar investment for a billion dollar company, they probably demand I get this ACL to 100% before I play basketball again.

Moiso, you seem to get all of this.  Why it matters now is because I still think a lot of people here are scoffing and misinterpreting what has happened with embiid the past two seasons.  They are also scoffing and misinterpreting my point of view on the situation.   Embiid isn't out of the woods yet, but I never wrote him off and I'm looking forward to seeing if he ever develops into a real player.  Signs out of philly right now seem very positive - which seems to be a major reason Okafor and Noel are available for the right price.

[Granath]

Research it yourself.  Extensive articles have been written with interviews with his doctor that performed the bone graft and why the decision was made to do it in spite of the fact embiid believed he was 100%, felt no pain, and was dominating everyone in practices.

That's actually the one reason for concern when embiid says he's 100% right now ... He thought he was fine last year too and they were not comfortable letting him risk reinjury without a bone graft procedure.

Repeating it doesn't make it any more true. There was never any point last season where Embiid was practicing 5 on 5, so he wasn't dominating anyone in practice beyond Yi Jianlian's chair.

Thanks for playing, please try again.