If this is Sully, is it almost time to say goodbye?

[walker834]

Well I was the only one who voted no amidst 10 others who didn't.  I am not a casual fan in that way I know that much. 

I do agree Sully has to take  care of himself. But it's not time to waive goodbye no.

I've also never understood the logic of trading a player just because we don't know yet either. For what?  For something worse or a player who doesn't fit?  Sully fits here.

That seems sort of casual to me. It is casual and not thinking things through. That's the whole point.

Certain players fit here.  Some don't.  A lot of fans are casual in that regard where they think it's about getting whatever player just because they're whatever they are.  Some players don't fit here with what we are trying to do. There are only so many roster spots and the celtics are trying to build  a team here.

I was just reading the thread about Rodney Hood. I actually liked Rodney Hood that draft and knew he was good. He wasn't a missed pick.  We have Bradley who is better and there are no minutes for a guy like Hood here. He would be redundant to Bradley.

Sullinger is still our best rebounder as it stands and has upside over a lot of players that way around the league.  He also is a more physical defender than KO and scrappy.  He just can't get up and down too good because of his back.

Sully is still finding his nitch here like anyone else.  Saying Sully is going to be overweight and like this is casual in and of itself. It's settling. Waiving goodbye to him on something that is not set in stone is silly.

No. If Sully is going to weigh 400 pounds is it time to get rid of him? No. What a stupid question. If Sully was big enough to take up the entire court we would win a lot of games. He could just tip it to himself and no one else could fit on the court.

Sully is in good shape right now anyways. He just needs to find his nitch.  He isn't overweight right now. 

[crimson_stallion]

There would have to be a really good free agent the celtics are targetting who fits the celtics better than Sully as it stands.

Why?

Where is the rule that stats we MUST use cap space, just because it's there?  Where is the rule that states that if we don't sign Sully, we must sign somebody else?

Sully is almost certain to attract a double digit salary.  Since the only thing Sully contributes to this team consistently is rebounding, why wouldn't we just sign a rebounding specialist at a reasonable price, to cover the backup PF spot?

I think Amir is fine and serviceable for now and he is signed short term,  but he is not a long term solution at center. Nor is he a long term backup even. He could be but again at 11 million we can do better. But he is basically filler. He's crap.

Problem is that Sully also is not a long term solution as our starting C/PF.  We can already see that the guy cannot be depended on to produce at anything (except rebounding) with any kind of consistency, and that his attitude is questionable.

As far as backups go, Amir is at least as capable as a long term solution at backup PF/C as Sully is.  If anything more so, since at least you know that Amir is going to bring 100% effort every night - something you can't depend on with Sully.  Also since Sully is likely to make the same money as Amir on his next contract (if not more), you are still faced with the same dilemma of paying double figure salaries to a bench player. 

Sullinger could be a good long term backup combo to go with KO if he is signed reasonably.

Problem with this argument is that Sully won't be signed reasonably - it's not going to happen.

- Avery Bradley got $7M/year a year coming off a major injury, when the cap was still at $56M
- Jae Crowder just got $7M/year coming off a season where he averaged 8/4/1
- Tristan Thompson just got $16M/year coming off a season where he averaged 8/8
- Jonas Jerebko is making $5M/year coming off a season where he was a 3rd string backup
- Omer Asik just got extended for $10M a year, and he's basically a taller Sully with no offensive

The simple fact is, there is ZERO chance of Sully being signed to a contract of less than $9M a year next season.  Not going to happen.  Most likely he gets something in the $12M-$16M range, but definitely not less than $9M.  Thinking we could get him for $6M?  A nice thought, but wishful thinking and will never happen.

I get what you are saying we don't want to sacrifice cap if a really good free agent comes available but again it depends.

Sully can be signed with conditions as well. He's a better long term option than Amir as it stands.

Not really...

Amir is only under contract this year and next.  He's a good veteran presence, a good leader, and gives offers countless intangibles that help you win games.  He's also our best (and pretty much only) rim protector.

With Amir, we could keep him this year - see what options are out there.  If there is nobody better on the market, then we can take up his second year, check again after that season.  It gives us flexibility.

With Sully any extension would like be for another 3 or 4 years, which is too long to commit to a guy who has as many motivational issues as Sully does.  We have already learnt that from the last 4 seasons he's been here. 

Locking up the guy for another 4 years at $10M+ per year is asking for disaster.  Once he's got that guaranteed contract, all the more reason for him to get lazy. 

What I'm saying is absolutely true in situations where stats are absolutely meaningless vs the fact Sullinger can rebound the basketball in big situations.  He is our best rebounder. 

There are a lot of guys in the NBA who can rebound the basketball.  Seriously, they are everywhere.  That alone is not nearly a strong enough reason to give Sully a big, long term extension.

I've also never understood the logic of trading a player just because we don't know yet either. For what?  For something worse or a player who doesn't fit?  Sully fits here.

Certain players fit here.  Some don't.  A lot of fans are casual in that regard where they think it's about getting whatever player just because they're whatever they are.  Some players don't fit here with what we are trying to do. There are only so many roster spots and the celtics are trying to build  a team here.

Yes, and unfortunately Sully (IMHO) does not fit here.

Brad plays a pace-and-space system.  Sully is in capable of moving with any kind of pace since he moves like a tanker truck, and he's incapable of doing anything to help with floor spacing since he is a ghastly bad (and far too willing) three point shooter.

Sully is a terrible fit for Brad's system.

Sully is in good shape right now anyways. He just needs to find his nitch.  He isn't overweight right now.

Recommended Body Mass Index for a guy who is 6'9" is like 230 pounds.  Sully is closer to 280 pounds, and I can assure you it's not all muscle. 

Sully is NOT in good shape right now - he most certainly IS overweight. 

Which wouldn't concern me  so much if he offered a positive attitude, strong work ethic and consist production - but he doesn't. 

That's the problem. 

Sorry, I don't mean to just blatantly disagree with everything you say, but keeping Sully IMHO just makes no sense.  He can't stay in shape, he has a bad attitude, he's injury prone, and doesn't offer skills that are not easily replaceable by another player later down the track.

[walker834]

Your arguments are silly.  A lot of them are based on assumptions or you didn't even understand what I said or took what I said out of context to the point I was trying to make.  As far as Sully being overweight and the appropriate weight for a 6'9 guy is 230 pounds is silly too.  Players play at different weights.  I'm guessing the celtics medical staff knows what Sully's ideal weight would  be.  Some players are just built bigger than others.

I could respond to everything you said but I already explained why in detail.   If you say so though.

You are saying Sully does not fit here.  Why is that? Because you say so? 

If it's so why is Sully still here?  We don't even know what his market value is going to be yet.

[walker834]

You are saying Sully can't be our starting PF.  He is our starting PF. I just saw him do it.  He's been our starting PF for most of the year.

I also explained that Sully isn't great at certain tempos.  He's a roleplayer that way. He can play center. He has done that this year as well.

Sully has the ability to start games. He has the ability to play PF and Center.

He is a more physical defender than KO and can rebound better than anyone on our team. No it's not easy to find rebounders of Sully's caliber.

Does keeping Sully keep us from getting a better player elsewhere? Not necessarily.  Right now he doesn't do that any  more than Amir does.

people want to trade him in fear of losing him for nothing but for what? There has to be a deal out there that makes sense and apparently there isn't right now or it would be done.

[PhoSita]

I wouldn't give Sully a multiyear deal for more than $5 million or so.

The only thing I trust him to do better than average is rebound.  His passing is alright.

Other than that, I don't think he's reliable.  He's a poor offensive option.  He's actually regressed offensively, it seems.  Very disappointing. 

[walker834]

I'm more concerned with how his weight is going to affect his back issues long term. I don't think it will be a problem. People made a post here saying KO is just what he is and we need to accept him as that. Actually KO is the guy with the upside. Sully is the guy who is not going to be a superstar because of his back. He had surgery to correct it but it may hinder him somewhat longterm.  It still doesn't mean they can't compliment each other.

I would not trade Sully for the sake of trading him.   He's different than Perk with his injury where he still has potential to be a very good player for us.  We drafted him.  We obviously liked something about him.

It really depends on how much,  how long, what conditions what other options are out there.  I think Sully personally will be fine and have a good career in the right situation and that could very well be here.

[walker834]

The whole point of what I'm saying is Sully has more potential here longterm than Amir johnson. Amir is fine short term. But he costs 11 million and that's too much for a backup center.  He isn't as good as Sullinger either in that sort of role.

Sullinger has more potential here than Amir longterm.  If we resign Amir and let Sully walk that's just sillyness.

Rebounders of Sully's caliber are hard to find. I don't care what anyone says there.  Yes he can be replaced possibly. But he's not exactly the easiest guy to replace. Either way we are paying for it ultimately unless we draft someone and get lucky.

[walker834]

Amir is the guy who needs to be replaced.  We need a better starting caliber center than him.

Mickey, Sully and KO with a legit starting center long term would be best case.  I don't know if it will work out like that though.

Having KO and MIckey with who knows at this point really isn't.  It's good to dream though that we get a max free agent down the road and a top center in the draft. Sure that's possible.

It's not set in stone that Sully doesn't fit though.

[crimson_stallion]

Your arguments are silly.  A lot of them are based on assumptions or you didn't even understand what I said or took what I said out of context to the point I was trying to make. 

I interpreted the things you said as well as I could - some of your points were not incredibly clear. If you don't mind advising on the ones I mis-interpreted (and where I got them wrong), then I would be happy to re-examine.

As far as Sully being overweight and the appropriate weight for a 6'9 guy is 230 pounds is silly too.  Players play at different weights.  I'm guessing the celtics medical staff knows what Sully's ideal weight would  be.  Some players are just built bigger than others.

Yes, the medical staff do know what Sully's ideal weight would be.  That's why Danny Ainge has gone on record stating on multiple occasions that he has asked Sully to drop his playing weight.

Even at the start of this season, Danny mentioned something about Sully making some improvements, but still not being where he wanted him to be.

It's well know that Sully is overweight - that's not even in debate. It's blatantly obvious.

You are saying Sully does not fit here.  Why is that? Because you say so? 

I just explained why...he doesn't fit Brad Steven's system.

He lacks the lateral mobility to switch onto quicker players, and he lacks the outside shooting to be a consistent threat from three.

That means he lacks defensive versatility, and he lacks the ability to space the floor - two key components of Brad Steven's system.   

If it's so why is Sully still here?  We don't even know what his market value is going to be yet.

The same reason why Gerald Wallace was here for some three years after we traded for him. 

That is - no trades have come along that are good enough value, so Danny is keeping him around until the right deal hopefully comes along.

If the right deal doesn't come along before the trade deadline, Danny will either take the best deal he can get, or else he will hold on to Sully until after the season to see if he can pull off a draft day trade.

Yes, we have a very good idea of what his market value will be.  It's really not hard to estimate it if you simply look at all the guys who have been signed in recent times. 

You have to understand that after this season the salary cap jumps to over $90M.  Almost every single team in the NBA is going to gain an additional $30M in cap space for free, just like that.  Just about every single team in the NBA is going to have cap space to sign free agents, and the free agent class (outside of 4 or 5 guys) is nothing special. 

When every team has cap space, it becomes a sellers market.  Once the top 5 or so guys (Bradley Beal, Andre Drummond, Kevin Durant, etc) are off the market, you are left with 20-25 teams who are all going to be bidding hard after 2nd and 3rd tier free agents.  Guys like Sully are going to make exponentially more money than they should because teams are going to be bidding against each other for guys like him.  That will push the price up. 

Sully isn't the only guy who is going to get more money than he's worth.  Lots of guys will, just like lots of guys did this year (knowing that the cap rise is coming soon). 

Why do you think Sully refused to negotiate with Boston for an extension that is any less than the max?  Because it's a huge market, and he's going to want to get as much money as he can.  If Boston isn't willing to offer more than $7M, some other team will come a long and offer $10M - Boston will refuse to match, and he'll walk.

As I said, Tristan Thompson is really no better a player than Sully is, and he just got paid a $16M max deal.  Iman Shumpert got $10M.  Amir Johnson got $12M. 

High cap means money is going to be thrown around like it's toilet paper, and it's guaranteed that a LOT of guys are going to get VERY overpaid.

[walker834]

It is not set in stone that sully is gone.  The whole point i'm making is that longterm Sully is a better option than Amir.  The game is played at different speeds anyways and Sully is more versatile. Having SUlly in the starting lineup and KO off the bench or KO starting and Sully and Mickey off the bench etc.  What we need is a better starting center than Amir ultimately.

Maybe Amir will resign cheap and he'll be our back up center  but I don't know. I think he is too similar to Mickey who is more versatile and cheaper ultimately.

We also need a better wing scorer than Crowder.  Signing Sully to a deal like Crowder depending on stipulations is what I'd expect. I'd expect Sully to be like Crowder for us. He can start. He can come off the bench depending on the young guys.

We need a starting caliber center and a wing scorer to go with what we have.

We need to weed out the Lee's and Turners of the world.  Sully is like Perkins in ways.  But Sully still has a chance to be a player for us.

Being a versatile team is what we want.  We don't want to be a team that can just play at one speed.

I'd rather have Sully over Amir depending on the price.

[walker834]

You still haven't debated what I'm actually saying that's the whole point.  Maybe that's not possible but we don't know that. If that can be done vs paying a guy like Amir it makes sense.

And I understand we don't want to limit this team as far as free agents but again we have expiring deals.  Signing Sully is not out of the question.

Why would we want to be worse? Who's to even say we can do better than Sully as far as fit anyways.

Ainge does dumb things like what you are talking about sometimes so who knows. I usually disagree when he does it.  I'd really think about that one. It obviously depends too. If its the right move to move on from Sully I'll agree.  But it really depends on what the outlook is.

I did not like letting Tony Allen go.   Signing Shaq etc.  There has been times where Ainge makes moves I agree with though.  So it depends.  As it stands I'm not seeing it.

[PhoSita]

We need better players than Sullinger, period.

He's gotten lots of opportunities to lock down a full time gig and show he's a player worth keeping long term.

He has failed to prove that he is as valuable as that.

We should move on from Sully for the simple reason that this team needs to use its roster spots and playing time to try to develop young players and identify guys who could turn into above average two-way contributors.

[MJohnnyboy]

Sullinger had so much potential. I think the worst thing to happen to him was being put on a bad team his second year where he was suddenly the team's go-to scorer with not much veteran leadership to guide him (Boy imagine if he had been drafted in the high lottery like he was originally projected to be). I'm not saying that is the Celtics' fault. I'm saying Sully didn't react nearly as well as he could have because he couldn't motivate himself to stay in shape since he was on a team that was expected to be awful. If KG/Pierce had stayed, I think Sully could have stayed more consistently motivated to meet his potential. However, I'll take 4 Brooklyn picks over a motivated Sully any day.

I also watched his rookie year and thought he was very promising. He was the team's best rebounder not named Kevin Garnett, showed pure hustle, had a respectable post-game, and even demonstrated a willingness to improve his weaknesses on defense. I didn't put lofty expectations on him, but I thought he would be a nice contributor for the Celtics going forward with Rondo, Green, and Bradley for the future. From the looks of things, I was wrong about Sully. Every year since then it seems Sully doesn't give a crap about putting his weight down and taking more ill-advised shots. I still hold out hope that he'll be the player I thought he could be, but that ship is sailing.

That being said, I don't fault Danny for taking Sully. The only guys who have turned out undoubtedly better that were picked after Jared were picked in the second round: Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Jae Crowder and Will Barton. I think Festus Ezeli is still up in the air and technically he was the last pick in the 1st round.

Whether or not he stays on this team long-term, I don't think I care anymore, but I wish him the best no matter what happens. Maybe someday he'll go back to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL35CpTd08I

[walker834]

We can make room for Mickey as it stands anyways. We need to get rid of Turner, Lee. Zeller probably and Amir.  Maybe one or 2 of our young wings like james young or Rj. That's 6 players right there and 6 roster spots.

Turner and Amir's minutes can go to two quality new young players.  We are going to need to develop our 2 picks anyways.

[walker834]

I don't see Crowder playing the minutes he is forever either. KO's minutes are probably going to increase. Sully's might decrease as well. Smart's minutes should increase. I don't know. I don't think Sully being gone is set in stone though.

I think having Crowder, and Sully locked up as role guys could work.  They aren't  being paid huge money. Getting a better wing and center and developing them.  Getting Smart more time.  Getting rid of Turner and Amir. Lee and Zeller aren't really even playing minutes anyways. Lee is going to be off hte books and so is Turner.

MIckey needs time.  We also have Rozier, Young and Rj but they aren't demanding time right now.

Having KO, Sully, Mickey and a legit center is not out of the question as far as our 4 big rotation.

It's  potentially cheaper than KO, Amir, Mickey and a legit Center and more well rounded.  We have too many guards. getting rid of Sully isn't going to help us play our guards more necessarily.  Does Tyler Zeller need to play more?  It's just Mickey who does.

KO, Sully, Mickey, A legit center is potentially greater than KO, Amir, Mickey and a legit center. Getting rid of Sully does not help us play our young guys  more necessarily either.

Who are we going to play?  Tyler Zeller? Amir is the guy who needs to go imo.