If this is Sully, is it almost time to say goodbye?

[Evantime34]

Sully needs to be moved to the bench. Sadly he is the best option to guard post scorers. The problem is, as an undersized center if he can't knock down shots away from the basket he's going to lose his match up every time.

[walker834]

Decline Amir's team option at 11 mil.  Extend Sully for less.  Draft a better center than Amir on a rookie deal. No pass Bass sucked.  I'll take a player like Big Baby Davis any day who can make plays in spots in big games where talent overrides any statistical analysis if used properly. 

Unfortunately Ainge is probably not that smart. Players like Amir and Bass never win anything. They are filler players.  This team isn't going to win anything with Amir as our center.  Nor is he a better bench option or cheaper than Sully will be.

When do you ever see a guy like Amir johnson or Bass make a big play in a big game?

Mickey can be leon powe too even still.

[crimson_stallion]

So he's having a bad game, and this means that he's gone?

yeah, I don't get the Sully-hate on this site, particularly the ongoing 'fat' commentary.  some games he's terrific, some he's not.  tonight's not his night unfortunately

Let me help by highlighting a couple of things.

1) Career 43.8% FG (for a power forward)
2) Career 27.4% 3PT shooter, on 3.1 attempts per 36 minutes
3) Career 4.4 fouls per 36 minutes
4) Career 21.7% Free Throw Rate
5) Constant conditioning issues, despite DA making a point about it on multiple occasions
6) Consistent display of attitude problems and poor body language
7) Health concerns (has missed one third of his games so far in his career)
8 ) Constant inconsistency from one game to the next
9) Frequently poor decision making / shot selection in clutch situations

The worst of all is that right now he has played 4 seasons and 218 games as a pro, he's in a contact year (so motivation should be at an all time high) and yet none of the above has changed.

Sad part is that to this point, Sully's best season in the league was his rookie year - which left me overwhelmingly optimistic about his future.  Since then it's just gone completely downhill, with rebounding being the only single thing he has done consistently well.

Unfortunately for him rebounding specialists are in plentiful supply in this league, which makes a guy like Sully very easily replaceable, and thus makes it incredibly difficult to justify spending any significant amount of money to re-sign him.

Nobody should feel bad for him, or sympathetic for him.  He's had four years (and plenty of minutes over that time) to prove himself, but has failed to do so.  He does not deserve special treatment, or to be thrown any additional lifelines.  He has had his chance, and he's blown it.  Maybe he'll have more success on another team where his game is a more suitable fit, but here he has outgrown his welcome and his usefulness.

It's unfortunate, because I had high hopes for Sully.  Unfortunate, but true.

Decline Amir's team option at 11 mil.  Extend Sully for less.  Draft a better center than Amir on a rookie deal. No pass Bass sucked.  I'll take a player like Big Baby Davis any day who can make plays in spots in big games where talent overrides any statistical analysis if used properly. 

Unfortunately Ainge is probably not that smart. Players like Amir and Bass never win anything. They are filler players.  This team isn't going to win anything with Amir as our center.  Nor is he a better bench option or cheaper than Sully will be.

When do you ever see a guy like Amir johnson or Bass make a big play in a big game?

I hate to break it to you, but Amir Johnson is a better player than Jared Sullinger.  There is no way in a million years I would let Johnson walk so that I can sign Sully.  No chance in hell.

when have I seen Amir Johnson or Bass make a big play in a big game? Are you kidding me?

Amir has kept us in countless games this year with his defense and his hustle.  He affects almost every shot that goes up near him, he is one of the best interior finishes in the entire NBA, and he barely ever turns the ball over or takes bad shots.  Every single night he is one of the highest impact players on the court.  We would most likely be a lottery team right now without Johnson, especially given how tight the east rankings are.

Bass made countless huge baskets and huge defensive plays in his time with the Celtics.  Countless.

When has Sully ever made a big play in a big game?  Absolutely never.  The guy has the worst shot selection of any player on this team, he can't defend outside of three feet, and he absolutely refuses to pass the ball when the game is on the line - instead constantly choosing to take utterly stupid contested shots that he has no hope in hell of making.

Sully has played a major part in losing us many games in the clutch - the other day's loss against the Mav's was a perfect example.  At the end of the 4th he hogged the ball on a critical possession, tried to force up a horrible contested shot, got called for an offensive foul, missed the shot, and gave up two free throws to the opposition.  That play (along with the stupid Evan Turner foul) potentially lost us that game. 

[walker834]

Sully should be our glenn davis and Mickey should be our Leon Powe. Sullinger is a better player than Amir Johnson. The point of roleplayers and a good coach is to know how to use them. Extending Sully will also be less expensive than Amir.

These are the types of moves ainge makes I can't stand. Tony Allen. Posey. Glenn Davis.  He brought in shaq and marbury and Bass and stupid.

Sully is our best rebounder.  People are complaining a bout KO being soft and needing to be better on the boards.  This is why Sully compliments KO perfectly. It's not one or the  other.  People's logic is whacky.

[jambr380]

Sully should be our glenn davis and Mickey should be our Leon Powe. Sullinger is a better player than Amir Johnson. The point of roleplayers and a good coach is to know how to use them. Extending Sully will also be less expensive than Amir.

These are the types of moves ainge makes I can't stand. Tony Allen. Posey. Glenn Davis.  He brought in shaq and marbury and Bass and stupid.

Sully is our best rebounder.  People are complaining a bout KO being soft and needing to be better on the boards.  This is why Sully compliments KO perfectly.

There are a number of people who feel that Sully may make $12-15M / yr in his next contract. I agree he is a decent player and is best suited as a bench big, but I don't see how you pay him more than $6m / yr at this point. His conditioning issues are maddening to me.

[crimson_stallion]

Sully should be our glenn davis and Mickey should be our Leon Powe. Sullinger is a better player than Amir Johnson. The point of roleplayers and a good coach is to know how to use them. Extending Sully will also be less expensive than Amir.

These are the types of moves ainge makes I can't stand. Tony Allen. Posey. Glenn Davis.  He brought in shaq and marbury and Bass and stupid.

I'm not convinced that Sully would cost less to extend than Amir Johnson.  In fact I'm certain that he wouldn't, since Sully's agent already said he would refuse any extension that isn't a max contract. 

That means if Boston wants to bring Sully back, they need to offer him a max extension or pursue him via free agency, where (in this salary cap situation) it's almost guaranteed that some moronic team will overpay.

Sully would also be likely offered at least a handful of deals that would offer him a starting role - something he's struggled to hold down here in Boston.  Why would he sign back up with the Celtics (where he's competing for minutes with Mickey, Johnson, Olynyk) if he can sign somewhere else knowing he will be the main starter up front?  He probably won't unless Boston offers the biggest contact.

Also Sully is not better than Amir Johnson.  He's a better defensive rebounder, and that's all. 

Johnson better conditioned, he's more mobile, he's a better rim protector, a better perimeter defender, a far better inside scorer, a comparable midrange shooter, a comparable three point shooter (albiet, a smarter one), a comparable passer, a comparable offensive rebounder, and significantly better at drawing fouls. 

More importantly, Amir Johnson is a FAR better decision maker - he rarely ever makes bad decisions, forces bad shots, commits stupid turnovers, etc.  All things that Sully does on a consistent basis.

Aside from defensive rebounding, there really is not a single aspect of the game in which Sully is actually better than Amir Johnson.

[walker834]

Sully should be our glenn davis and Mickey should be our Leon Powe. Sullinger is a better player than Amir Johnson. The point of roleplayers and a good coach is to know how to use them. Extending Sully will also be less expensive than Amir.

These are the types of moves ainge makes I can't stand. Tony Allen. Posey. Glenn Davis.  He brought in shaq and marbury and Bass and stupid.

Sully is our best rebounder.  People are complaining a bout KO being soft and needing to be better on the boards.  This is why Sully compliments KO perfectly.

There are a number of people who feel that Sully may make $12-15M / yr in his next contract. I agree he is a decent player and is best suited as a bench big, but I don't see how you pay him more than $6m / yr at this point. His conditioning issues are maddening to me.

I don't see a team paying Sully 12-15 million. He's inefficiant. Bradley didn't get that. Chandler Parsons did. I think Sully gets about 8-10 mil a year at most frmo other teams. Less than Amir. Just watch if a team pays sully less and we keep amir i'll be p---ed.  I think we try to sign him for less  before the season is over.

The only way I see us moving on from Sully is if he is priced out of our range and we can draft a better player like him for much less.

We should offer him an extension around 5 or 6 mil a  year. His qualifying offer is at 3.2 mil around what Turner is making right now.  We have Lee and Turner expiring. And Zeller.

[walker834]

We have expiring contracts in David Lee, Turner, etc. That money has to go to someone.  Might as well pay it to sullinger imo vs signing some other crap free agent.   Let Amir go if we need to save cap. If need be keep it somewhat short where we have options with Sullinger anyways.  I personally think his health will be fine.

[crimson_stallion]

Sully should be our glenn davis and Mickey should be our Leon Powe. Sullinger is a better player than Amir Johnson. The point of roleplayers and a good coach is to know how to use them. Extending Sully will also be less expensive than Amir.

These are the types of moves ainge makes I can't stand. Tony Allen. Posey. Glenn Davis.  He brought in shaq and marbury and Bass and stupid.

Sully is our best rebounder.  People are complaining a bout KO being soft and needing to be better on the boards.  This is why Sully compliments KO perfectly.

There are a number of people who feel that Sully may make $12-15M / yr in his next contract. I agree he is a decent player and is best suited as a bench big, but I don't see how you pay him more than $6m / yr at this point. His conditioning issues are maddening to me.

I don't see a team paying Sully 12-15 million. He's inefficiant. Bradley didn't get that. Chandler Parsons did. I think Sully gets about 8-10 mil a year. Less than Amir. Just watch if a team pays sully less and we keep amir i'll be p---ed.  I think we try to sign him for less  before the season is over.

The only way I see us moving on from Sully is if he is priced out of our range and we can draft a better player like him for much less.

We should offer him an extension around 5 or 6 mil a  year.

Avery Bradley got $7M a year back when the cap was like $56M, meaning his contact would have been roughly 12.5% of the cap. 

Omer Asik also got $9M a year around the same time period

After this season the cap will be something like $90M, which an equivalent deal to Bradley's in today's market would be about $11M - $12M a year. 

Bradley was also just coming off a couple of seasons where he was plagued by injuries (which lowered his value) and bigs are generally paid more than guards. 

Tristan Thompson is really no better a player than Sully is, and he's making $14M this year.

Trust me, with today's cap environment Sully will get somewhere in the $12M - $15M a year range. You can pretty much bank on that. 

[walker834]

Who are we going to sign if we don't sign sully? we have Lee and Turner expiring. Some other crap free agent for 11 mil like Amir? Sully fits this team imo.

[crimson_stallion]

We have expiring contracts in David Lee, Turner, etc. That money has to go to someone.  Might as well pay it to sullinger imo vs signing some other crap free agent.   Let Amir go if we need to save cap.

Firstly, Amir is not a crap free agent.  He's better than Sully (or at the very least his equal) without any of the attitude or conditioning problems. 

Secondly, that money should be saved so that if a big name free agent comes up in the next year or two, we are in play.  No point in throwing that cap space away in the long term just because it's there.  That's what Detroit did with Villenueva, Ben Gordon, Josh Smith, etc.  You don't throw out big contracts to guys who don't deserve them just because you can, otherwise you cripple yourself for years like countless teams have in the past.

Letting Sully walk for nothing is better than re-signing him to an double figure contract.  We have a billion bigs right now.  Olynyk and Johnson are both at least as good as (if not better than) than Sully.  Mickey needs minutes.  Jerebko is solid.  Brad has already spoken of wanting to play Crowder more at the four, but said he can't beacuse there are too many bigs who all need minutes.   There are free agents out there all the time who can offer as much as Sully does without nearly as much attitude concern.

Trust me, finding guys who can take Sully's minutes - that's the easy part.

Our biggest problem right now is that we have too many bigs, and not enough minutes to go around.  If Sully walks, it just helps clear the log-jam.  That isn't a bad thing.

If we can trade him and get an asset back (picks, etc) then we should.  If not, then just let him walk.  Sully is not even close to irreplaceable, and if he does walk we'd have little trouble finding a similarly productive replacement.  No need to act brashly and try to rush an extension. 

I would rather re-sign Evan Turner on the cheap than extend Sully for what is almost certain to be a double figure salary.

[walker834]

There would have to be a really good free agent the celtics are targetting who fits the celtics better than Sully as it stands.

I think Amir is fine and serviceable for now and he is signed short term,  but he is not a long term solution at center. Nor is he a long term backup even. He could be but again at 11 million we can do better. But he is basically filler. He's crap.

Sullinger could be a good long term backup combo to go with KO if he is signed reasonably.

I get what you are saying we don't want to sacrifice cap if a really good free agent comes available but again it depends.

Sully can be signed with conditions as well. He's a better long term option than Amir as it stands.

[LooseCannon]

Decline Amir's team option at 11 mil.  Extend Sully for less.  Draft a better center than Amir on a rookie deal. No pass Bass sucked.  I'll take a player like Big Baby Davis any day who can make plays in spots in big games where talent overrides any statistical analysis if used properly. 

Unfortunately Ainge is probably not that smart. Players like Amir and Bass never win anything. They are filler players.  This team isn't going to win anything with Amir as our center.  Nor is he a better bench option or cheaper than Sully will be.

When do you ever see a guy like Amir johnson or Bass make a big play in a big game?

Mickey can be leon powe too even still.

You seem to underrate Amir Johnson when advanced metrics suggest he is about as valuable as Jae Crowder.  This is probably because you have a casual fan's bias toward scoring and highlight reel plays when a serious student of the game understands that Johnson is possibly the third-best player on the Celtics.

Even if the Celtics are able to draft a center, it would be reasonable to keep Johnson and Sullinger and bring the rookie along slowly instead of force-feeding him minutes.

[walker834]

And Bill Belichick is a casual fan too according to your logic.  "Stats are for losers".  What I'm saying is absolutely true in situations where stats are absolutely meaningless vs the fact Sullinger can rebound the basketball in big situations.  He is our best rebounder. 

Why do  you think the Patriots like players like they do at rb who are more there as role players and because they can do certain things well?

Basketball is  no different in that regard.

I don't think you understand what advanced statistics are anyways if put in situations and how various players compliment one another..

I get what people are saying as far as we don't want to tie up money unreasonably with a guy like Sully where we sacrifice our ability to get a free agent of value.  But at the same time it really depends.

[LooseCannon]

Belichick is an overrated football coach who isn't a moron but looks better because pretty much every other NFL head coach is.

I lean toward the idea of seeing how well Sullinger plays after the deadline and especially in the playoffs to determine what contract he deserves and I would be afraid to let him walk for nothing if another team signs him to an offer sheet well above what I would be comfortable paying.