Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.

[Quetzalcoatl]

They should try to sign Waiters, because he wants to go to Philly, then they should try to use some more cash on whoever they can to get one more player.  Overpay someone a little who has work ethic.  Then, whatever cap space they have left over should go to a washed up player like Sam Cassell or Gerald Wallace as a player/coach type role.  I think that the Wolves are proving that is the right thing to do and I really liked both of those two guys on our team developing our players.  I see some of Gerald Wallace's game in Sullinger now.

[celticsclay]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

Can you step back from this a minute and look at this objectively. There is a team that is a 1-20, just lost to a team's backups by 50 points, has recently suspended their best prospect for getting in repeated street brawls and lieing about it to the team, and you can't say they made one mistake aside from letting a backup big go and *possibly drafting saric a few years ago?

Doesn't that strike you as kind of insane?

With the exception of perhaps the warriors and spurs, I, and any other objective fan could list numerous clear mistakes that every single team, including the celtics, has made over the last 3 years. The fact that that is the best you can do for the 76ers is really troubling and is akin to what Hinkie's wife would say.

[oldtype]

See, that's the whole point of the Philly model. You can't say that anything is a mistake because you've delayed all accountable results into the far future.

How can picking Saric be a mistake when he hasn't even got here yet? How can trading MCW be a mistake when we haven't seen what the draft pick turns into yet? How can going 1-20 this year be a mistake when it might yield Ben Simmons next year?

Under an ownership that buys into this system, Hinkie becomes completely unfireable. Fortunately for the NBA, it seems that their buy-in may be coming to an end.

[Moranis]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

Can you step back from this a minute and look at this objectively. There is a team that is a 1-20, just lost to a team's backups by 50 points, has recently suspended their best prospect for getting in repeated street brawls and lieing about it to the team, and you can't say they made one mistake aside from letting a backup big go and *possibly drafting saric a few years ago?

Doesn't that strike you as kind of insane?

With the exception of perhaps the warriors and spurs, I, and any other objective fan could list numerous clear mistakes that every single team, including the celtics, has made over the last 3 years. The fact that that is the best you can do for the 76ers is really troubling and is akin to what Hinkie's wife would say.

Because they went all in on the tank, which is the exact move I would have made coming off of the Andrew Bynum disaster from the prior administration.  The Sixers had no future before Hinkie got there.  They were destined to be a late lottery type team for the foreseeable future and had no one of any sort of real value except Holiday.  They could barely give Turner away and got a 1st for Young (which was a nice trade).  Spencer Hawes had limited value as well.  They had traded away some future picks as well.  What exactly were the Sixers supposed to do.  And here's the thing, had they kept all those guys, they wouldn't have Okafor or Noel or Embiid.  Saric maybe.  They wouldn't be this bad, but they were never going to win a title.  Even keeping someone like MCW, sure it makes them a bit better, but not enough to move the needle and they sold very high on him.

You don't see the potential of a true tank, which is why you can't see that Philly is doing exactly what they said they were going to do and sticking with that course. 

What are all these mistakes you think Philly made?  was it trading Holiday?  was it drafting Saric?  was it drafting Embiid?  Was it drafting Okafor?  was it trading MCW?  I mean what do you think Philly did wrong, other than just saying they are terrible and should have made some imaginary moves?

[LarBrd33]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

I agree with you, obviously.   I think the main point of confusion stems from people believing that Philly actually tried to put a winning team out there this year and this was the result.   Anyone who believes that, doesn't get it.  Naturally, casual fans and media look at their 1-21 record and say, "this is an abomination!! worst team ever!!... they are hopeless!"... and generally casual fans and media don't understand the value of picks/prospects and cap space. They can't see a foot in front of them.   

I don't care what people say this does to my "credibility" as a Celtic fans posting on an internet forum.  I'm saying that Philly has unlimited options this summer.  A competent GM can turn them into a decent team fairly quickly.   And nobody should act surprised if Philly is hovering around .500 next season like the Orlando Magic this year.   Once they are ready to try and be competitive, they'll cut the dead weight, bring in some vets, flip their highly lucrative assets for players that fit better... and ultimately be fine.   Anyone who has followed this league long enough knows that bottom feeder teams become contenders overnight all the time.  Turning Philly from a 2-80 team to a mediocre also-ran would be a piece of cake given their assets and cap space.

[wiley]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

I agree with you, obviously.   I think the main point of confusion stems from people believing that Philly actually tried to put a winning team out there this year and this was the result.   Anyone who believes that, doesn't get it.  Naturally, casual fans and media look at their 1-21 record and say, "this is an abomination!! worst team ever!!... they are hopeless!"... and generally casual fans and media don't understand the value of picks/prospects and cap space. They can't see a foot in front of them.   

I don't care what people say this does to my "credibility" as a Celtic fans posting on an internet forum.  I'm saying that Philly has unlimited options this summer.  A competent GM can turn them into a decent team fairly quickly.   And nobody should act surprised if Philly is hovering around .500 next season like the Orlando Magic this year.   Once they are ready to try and be competitive, they'll cut the dead weight, bring in some vets, flip their highly lucrative assets for players that fit better... and ultimately be fine.   Anyone who has followed this league long enough knows that bottom feeder teams become contenders overnight all the time.  Turning Philly from a 2-80 team to a mediocre also-ran would be a piece of cake given their assets and cap space.

Few things.  No one on Celtics blog expected them to be a good team this year, as far as I know.  Secondly, I think you've lowered the bar for the success of their massive tank.  The idea was to build a perennial contender, not to be just another up and coming team like the Magic.  Third, even if they land Simmons it will take two years at least to get to where the Magic are today.  Finally, they desperately need Simmons.  If they don't get him, the road back to respectability (Bucks level?  Magic level? Utah level?) will be twice as long.  They didn't get what they wanted out of their tank strategy, whether it was mismanaging the draft, bad luck or both.  They wanted to be Ok. City in a short amount of time...now they're hoping for the Magic and over a much longer period. 

[PhoSita]

My understanding all along has been that the goal for the Sixers has been to end up where the T-Wolves are right now, or where the Thunder were in 2009 or so.  Basically, a team with multiple elite prospects with superstar potential who are productive and exciting pretty much from the word go, even if they don't win a lot of games at first.


The "Process" they've followed to get there was never expected to "guarantee" that they'd achieve their goal within just a few years.  Even so, I imagine they hoped they would have hit on at least one clear cut superstar prospect by now.  They've had some bad luck, and every rebuild requires luck to get off the ground.

The question all along has been just how much patience the Sixers, Sixers fans, and the league in general would have with this "Process" if it didn't provide dividends early on.  After six or seven years of blatant tanking, you might by necessity end up with at least a couple no-doubt prospects.  But would you be allowed to get that far, if you're losing 60+ games every season? 

Looks like the answer is probably no.

[LarBrd33]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

I agree with you, obviously.   I think the main point of confusion stems from people believing that Philly actually tried to put a winning team out there this year and this was the result.   Anyone who believes that, doesn't get it.  Naturally, casual fans and media look at their 1-21 record and say, "this is an abomination!! worst team ever!!... they are hopeless!"... and generally casual fans and media don't understand the value of picks/prospects and cap space. They can't see a foot in front of them.   

I don't care what people say this does to my "credibility" as a Celtic fans posting on an internet forum.  I'm saying that Philly has unlimited options this summer.  A competent GM can turn them into a decent team fairly quickly.   And nobody should act surprised if Philly is hovering around .500 next season like the Orlando Magic this year.   Once they are ready to try and be competitive, they'll cut the dead weight, bring in some vets, flip their highly lucrative assets for players that fit better... and ultimately be fine.   Anyone who has followed this league long enough knows that bottom feeder teams become contenders overnight all the time.  Turning Philly from a 2-80 team to a mediocre also-ran would be a piece of cake given their assets and cap space.

Few things.  No one on Celtics blog expected them to be a good team this year, as far as I know.  Secondly, I think you've lowered the bar for the success of their massive tank.  The idea was to build a perennial contender, not to be just another up and coming team like the Magic. 

Exactly.  That was the goal.  And it likely is still their goal... which is why they are tanking this year.   But yes, if the goal was to be a .500 team like the Celtics, it would be easy for a GM to turn Philly into that.   I'm guessing the casual fans will look at PHilly differently next year.  It's not hard to get the Jonas Jerebko and Tyler Zellers of the world.  Once they settle on their young core, they can fill out the roster by acquiring the less important players. 

[oldtype]

I've said this multiple times. There is no doubt that what the Sixers are doing probably yields the best odds of success. The Philadelphia 76ers have more likelihood of finding the next superstar than the Boston Celtics and they will continue to do so for as long as they pursue this strategy.

But consciously and deliberately putting the worst possible team on the floor for as long as they're doing has real effects on your reputation. Your reputation with players, with fellow owners, with agents. Your relationship with your own fans. All of these things will create aftershocks when they try to move to the next level. When the Sixers finally decide they have enough young talent to make an honest effort at contending, the professional basketball community will not have forgotten what they did to get there.

Of course all of this goes without even mentioning what their fans have already been through in suffering through "the process." Is a slightly better chance at building a winner worth sitting through multiple years of this every time your team decides to rebuild? I don't think so.

[Moranis]

I've said this multiple times. There is no doubt that what the Sixers are doing probably yields the best odds of success. The Philadelphia 76ers have more likelihood of finding the next superstar than the Boston Celtics and they will continue to do so for as long as they pursue this strategy.

But consciously and deliberately putting the worst possible team on the floor for as long as they're doing has real effects on your reputation. Your reputation with players, with fellow owners, with agents. Your relationship with your own fans. All of these things will create aftershocks when they try to move to the next level. When the Sixers finally decide they have enough young talent to make an honest effort at contending, the professional basketball community will not have forgotten what they did to get there.

Of course all of this goes without even mentioning what their fans have already been through in suffering through "the process." Is a slightly better chance at building a winner worth sitting through multiple years of this every time your team decides to rebuild? I don't think so.

The real question is, is it only a slightly better chance at building a winner?  And the secondary question, is how long will that team be a "winner"?  If you are talking about a 10 to 15 year window with multiple title appearances (and a title or two) for a few years of pain it is probably worth it.  If you are talking about being the Hawks, it probably isn't worth it.  The tertiary question is specific to the Sixers, but what else could they have done given the state of the team when hinkie took over?

[KG Living Legend]

I mean in a bubble if the season was over right now, I'd say I'd gladly trade Avery Bradley + Jared SUllinger for their unprotected 1st.   Getting top 5 talent in the draft is how you build a contender.   There's no way Bradley + Sully is worth a top 3 pick normally. 

But then... would you even have the guts to do that 1/4th of the way through the season?   Say they follow up that move by trading Okafor for a SF like Tobias Harris.    We got Thomas for a late 1st last year... PHilly has two of them (Miami and Okafor)...  say they trade those two picks for another rotation player like Goran Dragic.     Within a day, they could have a roster of Goran Dragic, Bradley, Harris, Sully, Noel with a bench filled of guys like Covington, Wroten, Canaan, Grant, Stauskas... say they flip some of those young guys for vets who can contribute like Luis Scola.     There's 3/4th of the season left to play... is that enough for Philly to win some games and finish above the Lakers, Brooklyn, etc?   

Say they decide to trade their top 3 protected Laker 1st (2017 unprotected) + a handful of young players and future picks for Cousins mid-season...   Say the team plays .500 from here on out...  It's unlikely, but not impossible.

Who would trade for their pick right now?  You never know what they will do afterwards.  I wouldn't trade for their pick right now.  So I imagine they will not get fair value for it in December.   So nothing will happen... they'll tank the rest of the season and deal with their gold hoard in the summer.

 LB, can you just drop the Ben Simmons lotto pick talk. It's just a top four pick right now.
 Judging by the last ten years, its a 10% chance. And the NBA is not sending Simmons there not now anyway.

[celticsclay]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

Can you step back from this a minute and look at this objectively. There is a team that is a 1-20, just lost to a team's backups by 50 points, has recently suspended their best prospect for getting in repeated street brawls and lieing about it to the team, and you can't say they made one mistake aside from letting a backup big go and *possibly drafting saric a few years ago?

Doesn't that strike you as kind of insane?

With the exception of perhaps the warriors and spurs, I, and any other objective fan could list numerous clear mistakes that every single team, including the celtics, has made over the last 3 years. The fact that that is the best you can do for the 76ers is really troubling and is akin to what Hinkie's wife would say.

Because they went all in on the tank, which is the exact move I would have made coming off of the Andrew Bynum disaster from the prior administration.  The Sixers had no future before Hinkie got there.  They were destined to be a late lottery type team for the foreseeable future and had no one of any sort of real value except Holiday.  They could barely give Turner away and got a 1st for Young (which was a nice trade).  Spencer Hawes had limited value as well.  They had traded away some future picks as well.  What exactly were the Sixers supposed to do.  And here's the thing, had they kept all those guys, they wouldn't have Okafor or Noel or Embiid.  Saric maybe.  They wouldn't be this bad, but they were never going to win a title.  Even keeping someone like MCW, sure it makes them a bit better, but not enough to move the needle and they sold very high on him.

You don't see the potential of a true tank, which is why you can't see that Philly is doing exactly what they said they were going to do and sticking with that course. 

What are all these mistakes you think Philly made?  was it trading Holiday?  was it drafting Saric?  was it drafting Embiid?  Was it drafting Okafor?  was it trading MCW?  I mean what do you think Philly did wrong, other than just saying they are terrible and should have made some imaginary moves?

I have said before what I think some of the mistakes were, and I will say again here.

1) Sign one or two vets to provide a presence for their young players, particularly Okafor. You can play the pretend game that no way anyone would sign there, but frankly that has been your weakest argument in this. The Twolves, expected to be pretty bad this year, signed 3 in prince, Garnett, Miller. The Lakers, with huge incentive to have a bottom of the league record signed Bass and to a lesser extent, Lou Williams. The nuggets, undergoing a complete rebuild kept around foye and nelson to provide leadership for Mudiay. The Blazers kept Kaman and brought back Henderson despite being in a full rebuild. You can argue it till you are blue in the face, but not getting one established veteran on that roster was a mistake. Their coach has come out and felt like it is. Respected and plugged in writers like Lowe have said they have seen the folly in this decision this year. Now does it 100% mean that the incidents don't happen with Okafor? Does it mean they have a better record, no. But if it something members of the coaching staff regret, national writers say was a mistake, I take their opinion much heavily than I take yours or Larbrd's (and frankly you both just come off as stubborn in this instance in light of what has happened the last month)

2) This is less concrete than number 1, but drafting Okafor last year instead of either 1) swinging for the fences with Porzingas 2) trading down and getting Mudiay and another pick. Very many people were skeptical of these two playing well together before the draft, and nothing we have seen in a quarter of the season has changed that. Considering multiple teams either tried (the Celtics being the most blatant) or have said they tried (the Mavs today), it is pretty clear they could have gotten a lot for that draft spot. If they have Mudiay today and another prospect they are not in the weakened position of having to trade one of their top 3 prospects because they all play the same position. We all talk about value, there is clear value lost right now 3 months later. I don't think the Knicks would trade Porzingis for Okafor and a mid-first rounder right now. Do you? So that is pretty hard to not argue as a mistake.

3) Accepting so many trades with pick protections as assets. You can argue over how much control they have over this, but it was a form of gambling that puts your franchise in a state of flux. A month away from the end of last season they didn't know if they were getting 1 or 4 draft picks. It looks like now they end up getting two picks in the high 20's. Some teams prefer early second round picks (possibly including the 76ers) than early second rounders. The protected picks suck because other teams don't want to trade for something that they don't know how valuable it is. Getting a Lakers pick sounds great in theory, but if it is going to keep getting rolled over for 3 years and could end up as the 15th pick, you end up much worse off than if you had just accepted the 8th pick in the first year. While I think it was fine to make one of these trades, continually doubling down but the organization in a position of weakness. I don't for the life of me understand how Larbrd can laugh and tell his charlotte story about how we have too many first rounders, but can't acknowledge Philly has put themselves in the same position with their endless collection of second rounders and protected picks.

This stuff isn't rocket science, and it isn't an overall attack on the 76ers management. Every team has made mistakes. Heck if turn it over to the NFL and the defending champion patriots I could point out tons of big mistakes in the last two years alone. Not acknowledging they made mistakes
and insisting they are exactly where they want to be on the heels of their best player being in off court trouble, the team getting blown out by 50 points to drop to 1-20 and angering other owners, and the NBA front office for costing the league money comes off as delusional.

[celticsclay]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

I agree with you, obviously.   I think the main point of confusion stems from people believing that Philly actually tried to put a winning team out there this year and this was the result.   Anyone who believes that, doesn't get it.  Naturally, casual fans and media look at their 1-21 record and say, "this is an abomination!! worst team ever!!... they are hopeless!"... and generally casual fans and media don't understand the value of picks/prospects and cap space. They can't see a foot in front of them.   

I don't care what people say this does to my "credibility" as a Celtic fans posting on an internet forum.  I'm saying that Philly has unlimited options this summer.  A competent GM can turn them into a decent team fairly quickly.   And nobody should act surprised if Philly is hovering around .500 next season like the Orlando Magic this year.   Once they are ready to try and be competitive, they'll cut the dead weight, bring in some vets, flip their highly lucrative assets for players that fit better... and ultimately be fine.   Anyone who has followed this league long enough knows that bottom feeder teams become contenders overnight all the time.  Turning Philly from a 2-80 team to a mediocre also-ran would be a piece of cake given their assets and cap space.

Few things.  No one on Celtics blog expected them to be a good team this year, as far as I know.  Secondly, I think you've lowered the bar for the success of their massive tank.  The idea was to build a perennial contender, not to be just another up and coming team like the Magic. 

Exactly.  That was the goal.  And it likely is still their goal... which is why they are tanking this year.   But yes, if the goal was to be a .500 team like the Celtics, it would be easy for a GM to turn Philly into that.   I'm guessing the casual fans will look at PHilly differently next year.  It's not hard to get the Jonas Jerebko and Tyler Zellers of the world.  Once they settle on their young core, they can fill out the roster by acquiring the less important players.

This is hilarious. The magic at the moment have a much brighter immediate and long term future than the 76ers. How are Gordon, Hezenga, Vucevic, Peyton, Oladipo, Harris and Fournier lower upside than Okafor, Noel, an injured Ebmiid and a 1/4 chance at Simmons? Those guys are all prospects on the Magic and that team could completely grow into a title contender. They are already over .500 and have hung in with or beat some of the best teams in the league while none of those guys (with the exception of Vucevic) having reached their peak. That was the most off thing you have ever posted and that is saying something!

[wiley]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

I agree with you, obviously.   I think the main point of confusion stems from people believing that Philly actually tried to put a winning team out there this year and this was the result.   Anyone who believes that, doesn't get it.  Naturally, casual fans and media look at their 1-21 record and say, "this is an abomination!! worst team ever!!... they are hopeless!"... and generally casual fans and media don't understand the value of picks/prospects and cap space. They can't see a foot in front of them.   

I don't care what people say this does to my "credibility" as a Celtic fans posting on an internet forum.  I'm saying that Philly has unlimited options this summer.  A competent GM can turn them into a decent team fairly quickly.   And nobody should act surprised if Philly is hovering around .500 next season like the Orlando Magic this year.   Once they are ready to try and be competitive, they'll cut the dead weight, bring in some vets, flip their highly lucrative assets for players that fit better... and ultimately be fine.   Anyone who has followed this league long enough knows that bottom feeder teams become contenders overnight all the time.  Turning Philly from a 2-80 team to a mediocre also-ran would be a piece of cake given their assets and cap space.

Few things.  No one on Celtics blog expected them to be a good team this year, as far as I know.  Secondly, I think you've lowered the bar for the success of their massive tank.  The idea was to build a perennial contender, not to be just another up and coming team like the Magic. 

Exactly.  That was the goal.  And it likely is still their goal... which is why they are tanking this year.   But yes, if the goal was to be a .500 team like the Celtics, it would be easy for a GM to turn Philly into that.   I'm guessing the casual fans will look at PHilly differently next year.  It's not hard to get the Jonas Jerebko and Tyler Zellers of the world.  Once they settle on their young core, they can fill out the roster by acquiring the less important players.

I agree things will look much better on December 8th of next year than they do right now.  But they aren't as close as you think unless team Colangelo/Hinkie can coax two big time players to sign.  That's why getting Simmons is of such vital importance. 

Without Simmons this rebuild will take forever, as in way longer than such an alienating tank was worth.  Without Simmons they won't have any chance in heck of catching up to the Magic, to the Lakers rebuild process (esp. if that's with Simmons), Minnesota, or Boston.  They also might not catch up to the Pelicans (if they can add a star to Davis), Utah, Phoenix, or Sacramento (key offseason coming). 

You can't just look at Philly in a vacuum and say neat.  It may be time for you to put a year on your sense of when they'll make the finals.  Otherwise the optimism seems unwarranted (if your date is too far out in the future).

[LarBrd33]

There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk.

Do you actually read what you write?  Stauskas was a freakin' lottery pick and now you think it proves something to say other teams would offer him a vet minimum deal?  That other teams would pay them peanuts to be the 12th or 13th guy on the roster?  That's supposed to prove something positive about Philly, three years into a tank?

Mike

Um, did you not read the post I responding to?

You can do it. Say one small mistake or bad move the 76ers made? It won't kill ya i promise.

The Sixers have done some things I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't mean it was a mistake.  For example, I wouldn't have drafted Saric.  They already had Noel coming back from injury and had just drafted Embiid who was going to miss time.  Adding another lottery pick who wasn't going to play for awhile seemed like an odd move, but I can't say it was a mistake either until I see what Saric actually does when he comes over.  Saric might go on to a Hall of Fame career in Philly, or he might flame out of the league.  You can't call that a mistake until you see what Saric does as a NBA player.  What I can commend Philly on is they knew they wanted Saric so they went and found a trade where they re-acquired their own pick to move back a couple of spots and still got Saric.  That is a brilliant move because they got the guy they wanted and additional assets. 

I would have kept Aldemir, who I think would have been a quality backup big man.  I would have made a harder push to keep Thomas Robinson, but who knows may TRob was out the door anyway. 

The reality is, looking at the moves in a vacuum you can't say Philly lost any of them.  The Holiday/Noel trade was a great move.  The MCW/lakers pick trade is looking better and better.  KJ McDaniel can't get off the bench in Houston at over 3 million a year (another great move from Philly). 

Everyone says they should sign some veterans for leadership. Ok who?  Everyone knew that team wasn't going to be very good, so what kind of veteran are they going to sign to that team.  No one of "quality" was going to sign there unless it is was their last resort.  I believe that will change this summer when the Sixers have an influx of talent i.e. Embiid, Saric, 1 or 2 high 1st round picks, and another couple of 1st round picks.  That team won't look nearly as bad to incoming free agents and thus players will potentially be signed (and guys like Wood, Holmes, etc. won't be on the team).

Can you step back from this a minute and look at this objectively. There is a team that is a 1-20, just lost to a team's backups by 50 points, has recently suspended their best prospect for getting in repeated street brawls and lieing about it to the team, and you can't say they made one mistake aside from letting a backup big go and *possibly drafting saric a few years ago?

Doesn't that strike you as kind of insane?

With the exception of perhaps the warriors and spurs, I, and any other objective fan could list numerous clear mistakes that every single team, including the celtics, has made over the last 3 years. The fact that that is the best you can do for the 76ers is really troubling and is akin to what Hinkie's wife would say.

Because they went all in on the tank, which is the exact move I would have made coming off of the Andrew Bynum disaster from the prior administration.  The Sixers had no future before Hinkie got there.  They were destined to be a late lottery type team for the foreseeable future and had no one of any sort of real value except Holiday.  They could barely give Turner away and got a 1st for Young (which was a nice trade).  Spencer Hawes had limited value as well.  They had traded away some future picks as well.  What exactly were the Sixers supposed to do.  And here's the thing, had they kept all those guys, they wouldn't have Okafor or Noel or Embiid.  Saric maybe.  They wouldn't be this bad, but they were never going to win a title.  Even keeping someone like MCW, sure it makes them a bit better, but not enough to move the needle and they sold very high on him.

You don't see the potential of a true tank, which is why you can't see that Philly is doing exactly what they said they were going to do and sticking with that course. 

What are all these mistakes you think Philly made?  was it trading Holiday?  was it drafting Saric?  was it drafting Embiid?  Was it drafting Okafor?  was it trading MCW?  I mean what do you think Philly did wrong, other than just saying they are terrible and should have made some imaginary moves?

I have said before what I think some of the mistakes were, and I will say again here.

1) Sign one or two vets to provide a presence for their young players, particularly Okafor. You can play the pretend game that no way anyone would sign there, but frankly that has been your weakest argument in this. The Twolves, expected to be pretty bad this year, signed 3 in prince, Garnett, Miller. The Lakers, with huge incentive to have a bottom of the league record signed Bass and to a lesser extent, Lou Williams. The nuggets, undergoing a complete rebuild kept around foye and nelson to provide leadership for Mudiay. The Blazers kept Kaman and brought back Henderson despite being in a full rebuild. You can argue it till you are blue in the face, but not getting one established veteran on that roster was a mistake. Their coach has come out and felt like it is. Respected and plugged in writers like Lowe have said they have seen the folly in this decision this year. Now does it 100% mean that the incidents don't happen with Okafor? Does it mean they have a better record, no. But if it something members of the coaching staff regret, national writers say was a mistake, I take their opinion much heavily than I take yours or Larbrd's (and frankly you both just come off as stubborn in this instance in light of what has happened the last month)

2) This is less concrete than number 1, but drafting Okafor last year instead of either 1) swinging for the fences with Porzingas 2) trading down and getting Mudiay and another pick. Very many people were skeptical of these two playing well together before the draft, and nothing we have seen in a quarter of the season has changed that. Considering multiple teams either tried (the Celtics being the most blatant) or have said they tried (the Mavs today), it is pretty clear they could have gotten a lot for that draft spot. If they have Mudiay today and another prospect they are not in the weakened position of having to trade one of their top 3 prospects because they all play the same position. We all talk about value, there is clear value lost right now 3 months later. I don't think the Knicks would trade Porzingis for Okafor and a mid-first rounder right now. Do you? So that is pretty hard to not argue as a mistake.

3) Accepting so many trades with pick protections as assets. You can argue over how much control they have over this, but it was a form of gambling that puts your franchise in a state of flux. A month away from the end of last season they didn't know if they were getting 1 or 4 draft picks. It looks like now they end up getting two picks in the high 20's. Some teams prefer early second round picks (possibly including the 76ers) than early second rounders. The protected picks suck because other teams don't want to trade for something that they don't know how valuable it is. Getting a Lakers pick sounds great in theory, but if it is going to keep getting rolled over for 3 years and could end up as the 15th pick, you end up much worse off than if you had just accepted the 8th pick in the first year. While I think it was fine to make one of these trades, continually doubling down but the organization in a position of weakness. I don't for the life of me understand how Larbrd can laugh and tell his charlotte story about how we have too many first rounders, but can't acknowledge Philly has put themselves in the same position with their endless collection of second rounders and protected picks.

This stuff isn't rocket science, and it isn't an overall attack on the 76ers management. Every team has made mistakes. Heck if turn it over to the NFL and the defending champion patriots I could point out tons of big mistakes in the last two years alone. Not acknowledging they made mistakes
and insisting they are exactly where they want to be on the heels of their best player being in off court trouble, the team getting blown out by 50 points to drop to 1-20 and angering other owners, and the NBA front office for costing the league money comes off as delusional.

#1 - The Brandon Basses of the world will be plenty available this summer.  They didn't care about winning this year.  It's paid off so far... they are basically a lock to add another top 5 talent in the draft this year.

#2 - It's funny that drafting Okafor is seen as a mistake.  He's more valuable than any single asset on the Celtics.   Would the Knicks trade Porzingus for him?.. probably not.   I reject the idea that they couldn't get a Mudiay type for him, though.   7 foot allstar prospects don't grow on trees.  THe league is getting smaller, but every contender has legit big men.   Okafor, maturity issues and all, holds incredible value in this league.  Larry Bird once broke his finger in a bar fight during the NBA finals.   Perspective.

#3 - They set themselves up to lose as much as possible.  Trading MCW for the Laker pick... if the worst-case scenario is a #15, they probably are fine.  MCW Is predictably averaging 9 points, 4 rebounds and 5 assists with 41% shooting and 26% from three this year... I'd much rather have the Lakers top 3 protected (or 2017 unprotected) pick than MCW.    Trading for Saric... if Saric shows up playing well, mouths will shut.    You misunderstand my Charlotte story...  by winning games, we screwed ourselves out of a quality prospect.  Instead, we have a bunch of d-leaguers.   Had we lost a few more games, we could have moved up to #4 and taken porzingus... but instead we got swept in the 1st round of a hopeless playoff appearance.  I was fine with it for other reasons, but it's not something that can be ignored.   There's essentially a 100% chance that Philly will have a top 5 pick this year.  There's a 45% chance they have a second top 5 pick...   They have multiple later 1sts that can surely be swapped for veterans if necessary.     Don't confuse Boston's position (inability to trade late 1sts for superstars) with Philly's eventually position (ability to trade late 1sts for Jeff Green level talent).     

They will have ample opportunity to put a quality team together.  And if any one of the 6 "star" coals they have in the fire break out, they are set for a decade.   They don't need all of Embiid, Okafor, Noel, Saric, Top 5 pick, Top 5 pick to develop into superstars... they just need one.   And compare those 6 chances to our two (Smart and Brooklyn... both of which Philly has better equivalents), you might start to understand why a team with that kind of firepower and 60 million in cap space can make damage this Summer.