Robert Upshaw debut and contract

[cltc5]

He looks lost on offense.  No thanks.

[mmmmm]

I'm really upset. I'm seriously upset that I'd rather post here than leave for work.

Even if it's not for #16, we had #28, #33 and #45 and we passed on this dude when WE NEEDED a rim protector. And now the stinking Lakers has him. Teams looked to the past without looking to the future. He's still fundamentally flawed and needs improvement on strength, but you can already see the potential. With work, he could turn into an excellent player, but no, we can't pick him because of his past, isn't it?

Now I'm really late for work. Might as well call in sick just so I can rant some more.

Every team passed on him in the draft including the Lakers.  They still have only given him a partial guarantee on 1st year money to get him to training camp.

My point is we could have not passed on him, still draft him in the 2nd round but we drafted another guard at #45, who may not even make the roster.

And why can't we offer the same deal to him when we needed a rim protector?

I think Thornton was drafted because he wouldn't make the roster.  Ainge wanted someone who could go on the Colton Iverson plan.  The Celtics wouldn't take Upshaw because there was no chance he would agree to go to Europe or spend a year in the D-League without signing an NBA contract.

Just to be clear, if Boston HAD drafted Upshaw with a 2nd round pick, he essentially would have no choice but to go sign a contract with whatever Euro or D-League team the Celtics wanted to stash him with.

He would not be able to just go sign a contract with some other NBA team.

This is the power the Celtics currently have over Colton Iverson and Mickey and Thornton.

Basically, team's retain their draft rights (exclusive right to sign the player to an NBA contract) indefinitely so long as a player is playing pro ball anywhere else. 

They only expire if the player stops playing ball for a full year.  At that point he would become an unrestricted FA.  Most players can not afford to do that.  So they agree to be stashed.

So, even though Colton opted to not partake in Summer League, technically Danny still has him 'stashed', should his game ever make enough progress that he merits a chance at the roster.  So he will continue to be a topic of discussion each year for a while, until it either becomes clear that he will never crack an NBA roster or one day, he does.

[mmmmm]

Still don't know why they didn't pick Upshaw over Thorton

This I agree with.  Thornton was a bad pickup at 45. He is one small guard

we could of drafted Upshaw, Arturas Gudaitis, Normal Powell (who had a very good game 1 for the raptors).  Branden Dawson.  All better choices than Thornton

How is 6' 1.75" w/o shoes (6' 3" w/shoes) and a 6' 7.75" wingspan "small" for a point guard?

Have you checked the dimensions of the typical PG in the league?   Thornton is taller and/or has a longer wingspan than Rozier, Cameron Payne, Marquis Teague and Tyus Jones -- all of whom were drafted above him.

And Thornton was the clear, most athletic player in the combine.

I will say, I would have been interested in taking a flyer on Upshaw with the #45 pick.  I watched him play a lot before he got dismissed and he has tremendous basketball potential.   I was talking him up very early in the year and I still think he has a chance, if he keeps his life under control.

But I also saw three of Thornton's games and I like him.  He is a very good basketball player.  I think he has a legit chance of cracking an NBA roster eventually.  He just needs to get out of the roster squeeze we have here with Boston.

[mmmmm]

Still don't know why they didn't pick Upshaw over Thorton

This I agree with.  Thornton was a bad pickup at 45. He is one small guard

we could of drafted Upshaw, Arturas Gudaitis, Normal Powell (who had a very good game 1 for the raptors).  Branden Dawson.  All better choices than Thornton

Wouldn't hurt anything by taking a chance on him..send him to D-League for a year to develop

Thornton might be willing to spend a year in the D-League without signing an NBA contract so he doesn't take up a spot on the 15-man roster as a draft-and-stash player.  I don't think Upshaw would accept that deal.

Well, if he wanted to get an NBA contract, his only choice would be to go ahead and agree to be 'stashed' or to take a year off from playing basketball.

Do you have some basis for your thinking that Upshaw would want to take a full year off rather than get paid by a D-League or Euro team, under the guidance of an NBA team, with at least a possible route to an NBA contract?

[LooseCannon]

Still don't know why they didn't pick Upshaw over Thorton

This I agree with.  Thornton was a bad pickup at 45. He is one small guard

we could of drafted Upshaw, Arturas Gudaitis, Normal Powell (who had a very good game 1 for the raptors).  Branden Dawson.  All better choices than Thornton

Wouldn't hurt anything by taking a chance on him..send him to D-League for a year to develop

Thornton might be willing to spend a year in the D-League without signing an NBA contract so he doesn't take up a spot on the 15-man roster as a draft-and-stash player.  I don't think Upshaw would accept that deal.

Well, if he wanted to get an NBA contract, his only choice would be to go ahead and agree to be 'stashed' or to take a year off from playing basketball.

Do you have some basis for your thinking that Upshaw would want to take a full year off rather than get paid by a D-League or Euro team, under the guidance of an NBA team, with at least a possible route to an NBA contract?

To maintain their rights, the Celtics would have to offer Upshaw the required tender.  So, Upshaw could follow the KJ McDaniels plan and sign the required tender, becoming a restricted free agent after one season.  That would ruin the Celtics' plans if they prefer a draft-and-stash player who won't take up a roster spot.

[mmmmm]

Still don't know why they didn't pick Upshaw over Thorton

This I agree with.  Thornton was a bad pickup at 45. He is one small guard

we could of drafted Upshaw, Arturas Gudaitis, Normal Powell (who had a very good game 1 for the raptors).  Branden Dawson.  All better choices than Thornton

Wouldn't hurt anything by taking a chance on him..send him to D-League for a year to develop

Thornton might be willing to spend a year in the D-League without signing an NBA contract so he doesn't take up a spot on the 15-man roster as a draft-and-stash player.  I don't think Upshaw would accept that deal.

Well, if he wanted to get an NBA contract, his only choice would be to go ahead and agree to be 'stashed' or to take a year off from playing basketball.

Do you have some basis for your thinking that Upshaw would want to take a full year off rather than get paid by a D-League or Euro team, under the guidance of an NBA team, with at least a possible route to an NBA contract?

To maintain their rights, the Celtics would have to offer Upshaw the required tender.  So, Upshaw could follow the KJ McDaniels plan and sign the required tender, becoming a restricted free agent after one season.  That would ruin the Celtics' plans if they prefer a draft-and-stash player who won't take up a roster spot.

As far as I know, there is no 'tender' offer necessary to retain 2nd round rights.  There is no cap hold for them and they have to be signed with cap space or exceptions the same as any free agents.  There is no salary scale for 2nd round picks and they can be signed anywhere from the minimum to the maximum.  The vast majority sign for a minimum contract, only partially or non-guaranteed.  If they sign a contract, guaranteed or not, with the NBA, then that event constitutes the exercising of the team's draft rights.

The following though, describes what happens if the team and the player do NOT sign an NBA contract:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51

• If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
• If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2015 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.
• If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2014 draft.
• For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

What McDaniels did was to sign a non-guaranteed contract with Philly that was only for one year.  This event both exercised and terminated their draft rights on him.   Once that was played out, he became a restricted free agent.

He took the bare minimum of 507K in order to get Philly to only do a one-year contract. 

Most of the time -- and you see this with Danny a lot -- when teams DO sign a 2nd round pick, they will pay closer to ~900K to 1M per or so, in return for getting the player to agree to a 2-year deal, with the 2nd year non-guaranteed.  This gives the team two years of control after the rights have been exercised, with not much risk.

But stashing basically gives them indefinite control (unless the player is able/willing to forego basketball for a year).

[crimson_stallion]

Upshaw's summer league debut with the Lakers: 2 points, 1 rebound, 3 blocks, 12 minutes played and 6 fouls.

Which was apparently good enough to earn him a two-year contract with the Lakers.

I'm sure that under Kobe's steady tutelage, this will all work out for the troubled Upshaw ...

So 6 points, 3 rebounds and 9 blocks Per 36 Minutes?

Probably the third best player on this Lakers Roster 

[Greenbean]

Upshaw's summer league debut with the Lakers: 2 points, 1 rebound, 3 blocks, 12 minutes played and 6 fouls.

Which was apparently good enough to earn him a two-year contract with the Lakers.

I'm sure that under Kobe's steady tutelage, this will all work out for the troubled Upshaw ...

So 6 points, 3 rebounds and 9 blocks Per 36 Minutes?

Probably the third best player on this Lakers Roster 

And 18 fouls

[LooseCannon]

As far as I know, there is no 'tender' offer necessary to retain 2nd round rights. 

CBA Article X, Section 4 (d):

If a player is drafted by a Team in either an Initial or Subsequent Draft and that Team does not make a Required Tender to such player, the player will become a Rookie Free Agent on the July 16 following such Draft (for a First Round Pick) or on the September 6 following such Draft (for a Second Round Pick).

[slamtheking]

I'm really upset. I'm seriously upset that I'd rather post here than leave for work.

Even if it's not for #16 (in which I stand firm that we should have picked him then), we had #28, #33 and #45 and we passed on this dude when WE NEEDED a rim protector. And now the stinking Lakers has him. Teams looked to the past without looking to the future. He's still fundamentally flawed and needs improvement on strength, but you can already see the potential. With work, he could turn into an excellent player, but no, we won't pick him because of his past, isn't it?

Now I'm really late for work. Might as well call in sick just so I can rant some more.

Picking guys like Upshaw at #16 is how bad teams stay bad for years and years and years.

Mike

I stand by my word that I think he still has the most upside of who's available at #16, so I don't thing it's a horrible decision to pick him there (because unlike everyone else, I'm optimistic that he'ok turn his life around).

But just foe the sake of argument, that you're right, we still didn't pick him at #33 and #45. Those are non guaranteed contracts, and Upshaw would fill a need and still has the most upside of who's available at that spot. Passing on him because of his past, in the 2nd round when he clearly has lots of potential is insane. Granted, everyone passed on him too, but not everyone has a need for a rim protector like us, but instead we took an undersized PF (who's looking decent so I'd give us that) and a PG who may not sniff the Parque.

I can't argue with anyone who thinks we should have picked Upshaw in the 2nd round, especially with #45.  To pass on Upshaw with his second 2nd round pick to take yet another PG means Ainge didn't like anything about Upshaw at all.  It'll be fair to criticize Ainge every GM if Upshaw turns out to even be a bench big in the NBA.  Probably need to wait a bit longer than one summer league game, though.

But you can't take a player with Upshaw's red flags at #16.

Mike

fixed it for you.

completely agree.  taking Upshaw at 16 would have been stupid and reckless behavior by any GM.   Every GM passed on this kid.  that speaks volumes.  anyone ignoring that isn't paying attention and will just grasp at any straw. 

for anyone so desperate for Upshaw, don't worry he'll be available again next year when the Lakers don't guarantee the second year of his deal

I'd take that bet.

I bet TP's that Robert Upshaw would have a better season than any of our picks this year.

D-league or Euro-league figures don't count

[mmmmm]

As far as I know, there is no 'tender' offer necessary to retain 2nd round rights. 

CBA Article X, Section 4 (d):

If a player is drafted by a Team in either an Initial or Subsequent Draft and that Team does not make a Required Tender to such player, the player will become a Rookie Free Agent on the July 16 following such Draft (for a First Round Pick) or on the September 6 following such Draft (for a Second Round Pick).

I stand informed.  Thanks.  Strange that Coon doesn't mention that in that section on rights retention, though he does cover the required tender elsewhere.

[Roy H.]

As far as I know, there is no 'tender' offer necessary to retain 2nd round rights. 

CBA Article X, Section 4 (d):

If a player is drafted by a Team in either an Initial or Subsequent Draft and that Team does not make a Required Tender to such player, the player will become a Rookie Free Agent on the July 16 following such Draft (for a First Round Pick) or on the September 6 following such Draft (for a Second Round Pick).

I stand informed.  Thanks.  Strange that Coon doesn't mention that in that section on rights retention, though he does cover the required tender elsewhere.

Yeah, he covers that in other parts.  Teams need to offer a contract tender by September 6 for 2nd rounders.  Otherwise, the player becomes a free agent.

I'm curious why more players don't take advantage of this.  It could be concerns that jobs could dry up if they wait until September 6.  It could be the worry that a team won't play them if they engage in contract hardball, resulting in a lack of leverage (especially with the tendering team retaining RFA rights.)

[LooseCannon]

I don't do Twitter, but someone who wants some Twitter street cred can ask Coon if he wants to add a section about required tenders for second round picks in light of the KJ McDaniels situation.