Yes or No? Marcus Smart Our Next Superstar?

[tarheelsxxiii]

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Oldtype, you quoted something I said about Gordon in a fantasy basketball thread.   It's weird that you even found that quote.   Context, my man.  I called Alexey Shved a budding young star in that thread.  I say a lot of tongue-in-cheek stuff there... like naming Gerald Wallace my team's captain last year.

But as I said a couple times in this thread, we shouldn't read into any major stats of 2nd year summer league players... whether it's Gordon, Exum, Smart, Furkan, etc...  Summer league is usually dominated by 2nd year players for a reason.  It doesn't mean Smart is on the verge of superstardom.  He's still go a long way to go.

I apologize if the quote was poorly sourced, but the sentiment remains:

You're utterly boring, completely predictable, and contribute very little to most discussions beyond zeroing in on the least intelligent positive thing anyone in the thread has said and stringing it up as a straw man to hide your unerring position of dour, dreadful negativity in a thin veneer of rationality.

I genuinely feel like I can predict how you will react to each and every thread.

Well that's overly combative.

He's generally right (minus Embiid), and contributes thoughtful posts. Get the impression others taken offense to his staunch positions, but that doesn't mean he isn't making solid contributions to discussions.

That's what happens when posting at 4 AM on a Friday night.

Lol. been there (will be again).

[GetLucky]

Heh I like Smart.  I liked Rondo too.  But much like I felt Rondo was never going to be a superstar, I find it extremely unlikely that Smart will.   

Doubt about Smart's ability to make an all-star team is not an uncommon opinion.

The problem is that Celtics players are overhyped by nature of the fanbase. It's awesome if you're a fan and the team is good, but when you try to look at things objectively it may bug you that people won't take off their "green goggles."

This phenomena is evident in one of my hobbies (sports card collecting). At his "peak" (which was by no means an all-around stastically dominant run) Rondo cards and autographs were selling as high as almost anyone (save LeBron, Durant, MJ, etc.). On the other hand, guys like Chris Bosh and Chris Paul (on the Hornets) were selling for less money than Rondo, even though they put up better overall numbers. It was crazy, but it made sense at the same time (based on the supply and demand of sports cards). 

Basically, Celtics fans compound everything good that happens because they're good, passionate fans. Every great game is a great game. And yes, some people may get carried away. I personally love getting caught up in the moment from time to time, but sometimes I look back and wonder what I was thinking.

And when you step back and look at things objectively, Smart is coming off a rookie year in which (I'm not being exact because it's 4am ET) he shot under 40%, he shot less than 4 free throws per game, and he did not score or dish assists at a very high rate (I believe under 12 and 6 per 36min). So yeah, Smart will probably not be a superstar by the objective definition of the word, as most stars dominate right from the get-go. Heck, LarBrd is probably right in saying that Smart will likely not be a perennial all-star selection. Even if he is, he has a serious uphill battle ahead of him.

But the awesome part of being a Celtics fan is that you make your own superstars. The Antoine Walkers of the world become unforgettable catalysts of fun in the dark days. The Larry Birds and Paul Pierces who dominated in every facet of the game and brought winning to the Garden become legends. The Rajon Rondos develop alter-ego, "Playoff Rondo" personas not just locally, but nationally to the point where they are mentioned all over national television. And the Marcus Smarts of the world become gladiators, who represent not just a person but also an attitude, the Celtic Way, much like Gary Payton (to quote one post) did for many years on many teams.

So yeah. Today I'm inclined to agree with LarBrd because he's right and being level-headed. But in a few months I may boldly declare that Marcus Smart deserves a retired number. Please don't hold it against me.   

EDIT: I quoted the passage at the top because it is succinct and near the end of an exchange. The above post is more about the exchange, not the verbatim passage, and is not really directed at LarBrd.

[LarBrd33]

TP.  Marcus Smart's development is one of few highlights of this team right now... clinging to the hope of him developing into a star is what will keep me watching this team next year in the midst of what likely will be a lotto-bound season.   I'm still holding out hope that we make more moves, though.  Offseason isn't over.

[GreenFaith1819]

I believe it's irrelevant that Marcus Smart becomes our next Superstar.

Celtics Lore has several HOFers that were not deemed or labeled as "Superstars" back in the day.

If Marcus Smart can have a career that rivals a Sam Jones or Tom Sanders then I'd be happy with that.

For the record - both of these guys were 1st round, and picked at #8. Marcus was a 1st round 6th pick. Sam was 6'4", Tom was 6'6". Marcus is 6'4".

[spikelovetheCelts]

I believe it's irrelevant that Marcus Smart becomes our next Superstar.

Celtics Lore has several HOFers that were not deemed or labeled as "Superstars" back in the day.

If Marcus Smart can have a career that rivals a Sam Jones or Tom Sanders then I'd be happy with that.

For the record - both of these guys were 1st round, and picked at #8. Marcus was a 1st round 6th pick. Sam was 6'4", Tom was 6'6". Marcus is 6'4".

He will play in an All star game for sure. I see more than that in him. Jeff Teague made the all star team this year and Smart will be better than him. He would have been a top 3 pick as a Fresh.

[GreenFaith1819]

I believe it's irrelevant that Marcus Smart becomes our next Superstar.

Celtics Lore has several HOFers that were not deemed or labeled as "Superstars" back in the day.

If Marcus Smart can have a career that rivals a Sam Jones or Tom Sanders then I'd be happy with that.

For the record - both of these guys were 1st round, and picked at #8. Marcus was a 1st round 6th pick. Sam was 6'4", Tom was 6'6". Marcus is 6'4".

He will play in an All star game for sure. I see more than that in him. Jeff Teague made the all star team this year and Smart will be better than him. He would have been a top 3 pick as a Fresh.

I'd be happy with that.

If Jeff Teague is the measuring stick, then MS could have several ASG by the end of his career.

Jeff Teague is talented, but MS is physically imposing as a guard and already a good defender. He can guard 1s, 2s and some 3s. His game is still developing, too.

Looking forward to seeing him grow in Green.

[KevinGamble]

based solely on summer league, I'm gonna have to go with yes!!!!!1!!!!!
 

[dysgenic]

Smart isn't going to be a superstar. Will he make an all star game one day? My opinion, probably not.

I do think he has a chance to become a really good player in time.

[cman88]

another thread where larbird keeps devaluing our assets

im not sure how some of you can be so negative and say no after one season. im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. it looks like he improved his shooting, driving and handles per summer league. if he can carry that over into the regular season I think it totally changes the dynamic of our team.

Jimmy butler blew up into a star out of nowhere so we will see.

[tankcity!]

I wouldn't even bet on Smart becoming an all-star let alone a superstar.  He looks like he's made some progress in summer league, though.  I still don't think he's a good offensive player yet.

Bro, first you said he was going to be like Tony Allen before even giving him the chance to have a whole offseason to work on his game. We've talked about this before and you decided to judge him before letting his second season play out, haha. At least I admit when I'm wrong. Have you ever admitted you are wrong?

Now you're saying he made some progress? That makes no sense at all since you said he wouldn't make progress after his rookie year and called him Tony Allen.  Did you see how timid he was last year? IMO, he has made great progress, as much as I would expect after one season under his belt.

Anyways, we'll see how good Marcus Smart will be when the season starts. But I'll be laughing my butt off if he's an all star.

huh?

I've never discounted the possibility that Smart will eventually develop into a star.  I wanted us to tank all that year and land a Top 8 pick.  I had Smart 8th on my list.  He was a solid consolation prize and I've repeatedly said he's easily our best asset.  I just don't think he's going to be an allstar.  Too offensively challenged.   If he ever makes an all-star team, I'll be very happy... unless of course it's after we've traded him away.

Smart looks like he's made some progress.  This is summer league, though.  We'll see what happens in the NBA.  He's still got a ways to go until he's as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  Here's hoping he gets there, and then surpasses it.

You compared him to Iman Shumpert in the thread below.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=78960.120;topicseen

You keep saying he's offensively challenged but I don't see it. Smart is already going to be better than Bradley this year IMO. So I don't see the Shumpert comparison. You can't play both sides of the fence. You clearly are saying he won't be an allstar and I find it hilarious you based that assumption on one year.

His stats as a rookie were similar to Iman shumpert. I was just making an observation.

Again, I don't think you can look at those two summer league games and conclusively say he is better than he was at the end of the regular season.   He's probably better than he was last summer league, but that's to be expected considering the year he spent against NBA competition.

I guess we will have to wait and see this season on who is right. Cause according to you, he is going to be Tony Allen, hahaha. Good luck with that bro. Your comp doesn't make sense because he can already do everything Tony Allen in his prime can. He works too hard to be that bad offensively. Really looking forward to seeing Smart play this year.

[tankcity!]

I wouldn't even bet on Smart becoming an all-star let alone a superstar.  He looks like he's made some progress in summer league, though.  I still don't think he's a good offensive player yet.

Bro, first you said he was going to be like Tony Allen before even giving him the chance to have a whole offseason to work on his game. We've talked about this before and you decided to judge him before letting his second season play out, haha. At least I admit when I'm wrong. Have you ever admitted you are wrong?

Now you're saying he made some progress? That makes no sense at all since you said he wouldn't make progress after his rookie year and called him Tony Allen.  Did you see how timid he was last year? IMO, he has made great progress, as much as I would expect after one season under his belt.

Anyways, we'll see how good Marcus Smart will be when the season starts. But I'll be laughing my butt off if he's an all star.

huh?

I've never discounted the possibility that Smart will eventually develop into a star.  I wanted us to tank all that year and land a Top 8 pick.  I had Smart 8th on my list.  He was a solid consolation prize and I've repeatedly said he's easily our best asset.  I just don't think he's going to be an allstar.  Too offensively challenged.   If he ever makes an all-star team, I'll be very happy... unless of course it's after we've traded him away.

Smart looks like he's made some progress.  This is summer league, though.  We'll see what happens in the NBA.  He's still got a ways to go until he's as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  Here's hoping he gets there, and then surpasses it.

You compared him to Iman Shumpert in the thread below.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=78960.120;topicseen

You keep saying he's offensively challenged but I don't see it. Smart is already going to be better than Bradley this year IMO. So I don't see the Shumpert comparison. You can't play both sides of the fence. You clearly are saying he won't be an allstar and I find it hilarious you based that assumption on one year.

His stats as a rookie were similar to Iman shumpert. I was just making an observation.

Again, I don't think you can look at those two summer league games and conclusively say he is better than he was at the end of the regular season.   He's probably better than he was last summer league, but that's to be expected considering the year he spent against NBA competition.

Probably better than last summer?

Why are you having such a tough time admitting that he's improving and better than you thought?  It's a good thing.

Agree, makes no sense. He was killing Smart last year for sucking in the summer league. He also ignores the fact that players like Kobe, Exum, Harden, and most rookies aren't great their first year. It would be like me judging James Young last year. It makes sense to judge him now, but it would've been dumb to claim he sucks after his rookie year. It's all about how much progress these kids make year over year. People have to remember these players won't reach their prime until their 28.

[tankcity!]

You guys are funny.  It's like you've never heard of Summer league before.   Joe Forte won Summer league MVP one year.  Jerryd Bayless averaged 30.3 points in 2008.  Anthony Randolph averaged 26.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 2.3 steals and 3 blocks in 2009.  Reggie Williams averaged 22.6 points in 2010.   Josh Selby avearged 24.2 points, 3.2 assists and 2.4 steals in 2012.  Jeffery Taylor averaged 20.3 points and 1.8 steals in 2013.    Glen Rice Jr dominated summer league last year... avearging 25 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 2.5 steals

It's freakin summer league, man.  And we've seen Smart play two games.  In half those games, he shot 30%. 

So a year ago, Smart averaged 14.8 points, 4.2 assists, 4.2 rebounds and 2 steals in 5 summerleague game (while shooting a horrid 29% and 26% from three), but he was very productive. 

So that gives you a baseline of Smart's summer league abilities.  He followed it up by averaging 6.8 points, 3.5 assists, 2.9 rebounds and 1.2 steals on 37%/35%/67% shooting over the first half of the season. 

Over the second half of the season, he showed mild improvement... averaging 9.1 points, 2.6 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.9 steals on 36%/32%/63%.   

For the season, he averaged 7.8 points, 3.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 1.5 steals (which I've pointed out is similar to what Iman Shumpert did as a rookie... 9.5 points, 2.8 assists, 3.2 rebounds and 1.7 steals).

So fine... now let's look at his stats over 2 summer league games:  24 points, 7.5 assists, 4.3 rebounds, and 2.5 steals.   Impressive... right up there with Glen Rice Jr last year. Hopefully he keeps it up.

So if his summer league stats last year (14.8/4.2/4.2/2) resulted in him averaging (7.8/3.1/3.3/1.5), we can take the stupid 2 game sample size thus far and guesstimate what Smart's NBA stats might be this season:  12.6 points, 5.5 assists, 3.4 assists and 1.9 steals.  Here's hoping he can shoot 40% this season.

Those stats are "fine".  And I'd be "fine" with those stats.  And considering he was a #6 pick, I truly hope he shows that kind of progress from last year. 

In Tony Allen's best season he averaged 11.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists and 1.5 steals... this would be better than that.  This would put Smart right up there in Rodney Stuckey territory (13.4 points, 4.9 assists, 3.5 rebounds 1.4 steals in year 2 with 44%/30%/80% shooting)... but it still falls short of what my initial expectations of Smart were.  I thought he'd be, at worst, Tyreke Evans.  Evans averaged 20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 5.3 rebounds and 1.5 steals as a rookie.   Evans is a fine player, but has never made an all-star team.

But you guys are reacting to two summer league games and already asking if Smart is going to be a superstar?  C'mon, man.  I'm not even sure he'll be an all-star.  If those projected stats pan out and he puts up 12.6 points, 5.5 assists, 3.4 assists and 1.9 steals next year, it would be worth celebrating... but I don't even know if that's a lock.

I mean... Aaron Gordon's summer league stats last year:  7.8 points, 5 rebounds, 1.2 assists, 0 steals, 0.4 blocks on  35% shooting and 0% from three.

A year later, Gordon is averaging 21.7 points, 11.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.7 blocks on 50% shooting/50% from three.  Does this mean that Gordon is a lock to be the next hall of famer?  I mean... maybe?

Dante Exum averaged 7.2 points, 2.6 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.4 steals with 30%/17%/64% shooting...  flash forward a year later and he's averaging 20 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds on 46%/20%/90% shooting.  Sure he's only played half as many games as Smart, but Utah should probably get ready to retire his number, right?

The real question is whether or not the progress we're seeing from Smart (assuming these big stats continue through the remainder of summer league) is a sign that Smart has improved since April 2015 when the NBA season ended.... or if it's a sign he's improved since July 2014 when he last played in Summer league.   He's spent a year playing in the NBA... he SHOULD be having a better summer league than last year.   But naturally, ya'll are gonna overreact and get angry when someone suggests he's still got a long way to go and may never get there.   

I like what I'm seeing from Smart.  I'm encouraged at the signs.  If he was having a disaster summer league like James Young, I'd be nervous.  He's clearly one of the best summer league performers so far this year... which is to be expected considering he was the 6th pick and this is his 2nd year playing in it.  It's a good thing.  This should help his trade value.  But I still doubt he'll ever make an all-star game.  And I still think his offensive game is limited.   He averaged 18, 5, 6 and 3 in College... it shouldn't come as a shock that he's one of the better players against garbage summer league competition.  Question is whether he can do it in the real league.   Last year, I was underwhelmed by his performance.

If you're going to judge a player just by stats, then I think it's pointless to have this conversation. I don't care what Smart has been putting up. I've just been actually watching him play with my eyes and the dude has made improvements in his game. He is actually dribbling with his left hand now. His first step is definitely better. The only thing you can say is that we don't truly know if he has improved his shooting. He could just be hot. He is a streaky shooter after all. Anyways, I really think you are digging yourself a hole here. Cause Smart is definitely going to be better than Tony Allen, and that is your comp for him. There is no denying that, hahah. HE CAN ALREADY DO EVERYTHING A PRIME TONY ALLEN CAN.

[tankcity!]

It's summer league. He should be dominating it.  Don't set yourself up to be disappointed.  We are seeing positive signs from smart, but we don't know if he can carry it over into the real league. As of right now I still see him as an offensively challenged defensive stud.  I'm seeing tiny hints of improvement, but how much of is it related to his progress over the past couple months and how much of it is related to a full season of playing NBA basketball?  We don't know if he's actually improved since the end of the year... The competition level is dramatically different in the NBA.

By that logic all top picks should dominate Summer League, meaning that the following players (who haven't thus far) have no offensive game: Towns, Russell, Okafor, Mudiay, Kaminsky, Winslow.

You forgot Julius Randle, another player LB insists is as valuable as Smart.

TP. I intended to mention him, I'll add him. Randle was quite bad in just about every way.

He played in the Summer League? How was he?

Randle's per minute summer league and preseason numbers last year were better than Smart's.   He's coming off a major injury.  Ainge almost picked Randle over Smart last year and in fact admitted that Randle was more talented, but we already had a bunch of PFs and Boston liked Smart's fire... we also needed Rondo insurance and Exum was already off the board... so the pick made sense.  We later tried trading Rondo for Randle.   Obviously Smart has more trade value than Randle right now considering the injury... but the comment people are taking out of context is that a year from now I'm not sure if I'd put money on Marcus Smart being more valuable than Randle.

First, he never admitted that. That is something Chad Ford said on the Lowe Podcast. I do believe that is what Ainge felt, but you shouldn't mislead everyone by saying Ainge directly said that.

[tankcity!]

No. He's obviously going to be the best point guard in the history of the NBA and if you say otherwise you're a hater and probably not a true fan anyway so why not go to the 76ers forum you big jerk you.

LB you are totes wrong about Randle though... he's not going to hit the "really good player" milestone, IMO YMMV.

You need to relax bro. I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. Most people here aren't saying he's going to be a superstar, just he has a chance to be an all star.

[tankcity!]

Non-Celtic plays well:

   Aaron Gordon dominated again today with 21 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists and 3 steals with 8-11 shooting.  Dramatic improvement from last year when he averaged 8 points and 4 rebounds in summer league.  Great sign from the youngest leprechaun.

Celtic plays well:

You guys are funny.  It's like you've never heard of Summer league before.   Joe Forte won Summer league MVP one year.  Jerryd Bayless averaged 30.3 points in 2008.  Anthony Randolph averaged 26.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 2.3 steals and 3 blocks in 2009.  Reggie Williams averaged 22.6 points in 2010.   Josh Selby avearged 24.2 points, 3.2 assists and 2.4 steals in 2012.  Jeffery Taylor averaged 20.3 points and 1.8 steals in 2013.    Glen Rice Jr dominated summer league last year... avearging 25 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 2.5 steals

Whatever man.