Sherrod Blakely- C's to put a package deal for Aldridge and Matthews

[JHTruth]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

EDIT: Another thing about '03-'07. Even after the trades, we were left with Rondo, Perkins, and Tony Allen. A future DPOY candidate (perennial all team defense) and another was a four time all-star. Having those three players left over on the roster after trading for Garnett and Allen is a testament to how good Ainge's drafting was from '03-'07.

And why should I, when I only care about the Celtics, lol ?  Look, we're obviously not going to agree here, and that's okay, but I don't understand your point about hindsight at all, given that it's defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary as, "the knowledge and understanding that you have about an event only after it has happened."  By definition, then, my picks AT THE TIME were not done with hindsight in the least, no matter how hard everyone tries to dismiss them. 

My other problem, here, is that if you can't criticize a gm for not even getting a rotational player in the second round, for what can you possibly criticize him?  Missing on non-lottery first rounders don't seem to count, nor does screwing up second round picks seems to bother anyone, so it appears that you're giving him a pass on every draft where he was not somewhere in the lottery . Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

Additionally, taking Sully (which you practically had to do, anyway), does not 'make up' for missing out terribly on Fab, never mind Joseph . I used to think that Ainge was really good at drafting, too, and of course his selections made those two acquisitions possible, but so did a number of other once-in-a-lifetime circumstances, such as Ray and Pierce both being hurt in the same year and Seattle's winning of the number 2 pick in 2007 which allowed them to move Allen in the first place.  Since that time, however (which is close to a decade, now), Danny has largely been simply atrocious, and no one seems to realize it.  I mean, Olynyk?  Really?  Taking him at 16 (had he been available, of course), would have been bad enough, but trading up to get dat billy goat makes the whole thing even worse, imo.

What's really frustrating to me is how a complete moron like myself can look at some blog posts, read over a few scouting reports, watch various youtube clips, and consistently pick far better players at, as you said, much more difficult draft positions.  I probably just got lucky, though.  Honestly - no sarcasm.  I'm not mad at you, btw.

Not ridiculous at all. Anything past the top 6-7 is a crapshoot, plain and simple. KO is one of the top 5 picks at 13 since 1980. That's 35 dang years.

You guys act like all stars get picked up past the top 5 all the time. They dont..

[LooseCannon]

It feels like some people either don't understand math or don't understand what a crapshoot is (or both).

[Monkhouse]

It feels like some people either don't understand math or don't understand what a crapshoot is (or both).

You're such a loose cannon, LooseCannon.
#firingshotssince2015 #peopledon'tknowbasicmath #economics101 #percentages? #practice? #wetalkingaboutpractice?

[BDeCosta26]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

I liked Hardaway a lot myself, and he played decently on that joke of a Knicks team this year. I understand you must not be high on KO, to put it nicely. But Olynyk is certainly at least a "serviceable back-up" big man in this league. I think that much isn't very debatable anymore. True 7 footers with point guard skills and a good 3 point shot just don't come around very often. He's has his issues, mostly with consistency and aggressiveness, but he's proven he can not only hit 3's but consistently beat guys on the dribble for drives to the hoop. He'll be in an NBA rotation for a while, especially the way the game is evolving. Plus, Olynyk is one of our more valuable trade chips because nearly every team can use a guy like him. With consistent playing time and some more confidence he could be a real weapon on offense. But even as is, he's got a place in this league for some time to come.

Yeah, I've heard that before to. And I don't think that's true, but he hasn't been bad their either. Every GM misses more than hits there, and he's had some hits too. I do wish he would take a stash guy once in a while but, oh well. When your picking in the middle of the second round, as long as we find a few guys we can use, which we have, I'm happy. Hitting on 2nds, especially ones that aren't 31-36 or so, just doesn't happen much.

The record shows that Ainge is a good, solid drafter. Better than most others in the league. Not the best, but good. Certainly likes certain kinds of players. He loves highly rated guys who fall in the draft (Young, Sullinger, Bradley, Jefferson, Green) and tough, under-sized PF's who were well decorated in college (Sully, Davis, Harangody). But most of those guys went on to good, if not star-level careers.
When you consider everything a GM does, He's pretty clearly one of the best in the league.

I guess I just don't understand, with so many franchises run in near perpetual darkness, how anyone can not be happy with what Ainge has done here.

Woop dee freakin' doo, a 'serviceable backup taken at 13," . How is he a 'true 7 footer,' btw, when he never plays under the basket, blocks shots, or rebounds well, which are all attributes of 'true 7 footers?'  The fact that he's a big guy who can shoot the 3 is not unique, either.  30 years ago, yes, but today, do you know what's truly rare?  Traditional big men, like Hassan Whiteside.

Who area all of these draftees of his who have gone on to have star-level careers, btw, because I can only think of two (and only one if we're going by the guys from your list) - Rondo, although cue the backlash because nothing he ever did here seems to count to most people on this site , and Big Al.  Unless you define 'star' differently from everyone else, who amongst Danny's selections have ever even made an All Star team? 

I'm in agreement with you on his preference for certain types of players, though.  Usually, they're undersized pf's, lol . Ugh.

I think I must have missed a comma. I was saying that a majority of his picks have had good, though not star-level, careers. Sorry bout that.

True 7 footer just means he's legit 7 feet. Not 6'11 with shoes, but 7 feet standing. And while it is more common now than ever before for a big guy to have "Three Point Range", a 7 footer who can consistently hit the 3 at an above average clip is still quite rare. Plus, that's not all Olynyk can do. The dude has real PG-like skills. He's an above-average passer, a great shooter, and he can beat most opposing bigs off the dribble for drives to the hoop. Just by being as tall as he is, he's about an average rebounder (albeit one that, as Evan Turner puts it "Couldn't box his way out of a paper bag"), and he's fairly athletic. Not supremely so, but he's quick enough to be effective at his kind of game. Nevermind the kind of spacing he provides. Why would he play under the basket much? That's not his game. You only want one guy down near the basket on offense most of the time anyway. That's why Noel-Embiid will never work in today's game. One of your bigs has to at least have a knockdown mid-range shot for acceptable spacing. A guy with Olynyk's skill set is the perfect match for a guy like Drummond.

The C's get calls about KO all the time, Zarren said as much earlier in the year. Most coaches would love a guy on their team with his skill set. On the right team, he could start. But even if he doesn't, he's a major weapon. I've seen a bunch of games where Olynyk was a glaring match-up nightmare, he took advantage, and scored a very efficient 15-20+ points. His problem is certainly not a lack of skills, it's a lack of aggressiveness. Even with that, he's a productive NBA-level player who would be in a whole lot of teams top 7 or 8 player rotations. If he can become consistent (with consistent minutes), at his best he could start on teams with a rim-protector around him. That's good for a guy picked 13th in one of the weakest, most poorly regarded draft classes in the past 10 years. You cant, and shouldn't, expect to get an all-star at that spot.

I think these other folks are being a bit hard on you, but they're right. Pretty much universally, no ones saying he's some kind of draft guru with magical power, but he's a dang good drafter. And when you factor in all the other things he does well, he's one of the best in the business. So I guess the question were asking is, who are these GMs your comparing Danny to that find gems at 30 and 58? And if we fire Ainge, as I must assume you've mentioned before, who do we get to replace him? I think it would be funny if we got the other Isiah Thomas to do it. How could anyone beat us with those two? He did a good job when he was a GM didn't he?

[DarkAzcura]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

EDIT: Another thing about '03-'07. Even after the trades, we were left with Rondo, Perkins, and Tony Allen. A future DPOY candidate (perennial all team defense) and another was a four time all-star. Having those three players left over on the roster after trading for Garnett and Allen is a testament to how good Ainge's drafting was from '03-'07.

And why should I, when I only care about the Celtics, lol ?  Look, we're obviously not going to agree here, and that's okay, but I don't understand your point about hindsight at all, given that it's defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary as, "the knowledge and understanding that you have about an event only after it has happened."  By definition, then, my picks AT THE TIME were not done with hindsight in the least, no matter how hard everyone tries to dismiss them. 

My other problem, here, is that if you can't criticize a gm for not even getting a rotational player in the second round, for what can you possibly criticize him?  Missing on non-lottery first rounders don't seem to count, nor does screwing up second round picks seems to bother anyone, so it appears that you're giving him a pass on every draft where he was not somewhere in the lottery . Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

Additionally, taking Sully (which you practically had to do, anyway), does not 'make up' for missing out terribly on Fab, never mind Joseph . I used to think that Ainge was really good at drafting, too, and of course his selections made those two acquisitions possible, but so did a number of other once-in-a-lifetime circumstances, such as Ray and Pierce both being hurt in the same year and Seattle's winning of the number 2 pick in 2007 which allowed them to move Allen in the first place.  Since that time, however (which is close to a decade, now), Danny has largely been simply atrocious, and no one seems to realize it.  I mean, Olynyk?  Really?  Taking him at 16 (had he been available, of course), would have been bad enough, but trading up to get dat billy goat makes the whole thing even worse, imo.

What's really frustrating to me is how a complete moron like myself can look at some blog posts, read over a few scouting reports, watch various youtube clips, and consistently pick far better players at, as you said, much more difficult draft positions.  I probably just got lucky, though.  Honestly - no sarcasm.  I'm not mad at you, btw.

To your bolded: Welcome to NBA drafting. If half your draft picks after the lottery turn out well enough and get second, third contracts, then you are a good NBA drafter. This isn't the NFL where oodles of talent is available throughout the first and second rounds.

[tarheelsxxiii]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

If the draft included only CelticsBloggers and KO, I think it'd still be a big mistake to move up for KO. (only partial sarcasm)

Related to another post, I'm not seeing KO as a C for the reasons you mentioned, as well as his 6'2" wingspan and size 9 shoes.

[Beat LA]

I've seen a bit of criticism for the Lester Hudson pick.  Really?  He's stuck around in the NBA for four seasons, which isn't bad for the 58th pick in the draft.

When Wesley Matthews was still, incredibly, available?  Yes, really. 

As for Hudson, if by 4 seasons you mean a combined 57 games spread out over 4 years (with 25 in his rookie year being the high point, I might add), during which, after his first 2 campaigns he played overseas for 2 years, then yes, he's played in the league for 4 seasons .

When you complain about the 58th overall pick...
facepalm sigh! LOL

c'mon man, blame Ainge for Melo, blame him for KO, but when you blame him for missing on Lester freakin Hudson?

I really think it just kills your credibility.

I didn't realize that I had any, lol , but okay, I'll bite - how so?  The failure to take Matthews might very well have cost us a title that year, imo.  I know that it's rare to find guys at such a spot in the draft, but that's why it was so frustrating to me to see us pass on him, because you have to seize those precious opportunities when they appear, especially when Hudson likely would have gone undrafted, anyway, and even if he didn't, who cares?  He wasn't going to help that team in the slightest.

You seem to be extremely reliant on the power of hindsight. Do you have any proof, on this blog or somewhere else, that you were clamoring for Ainge to draft Butler, Jordan, and the undrafted Matthews before the draft? Because if you provide that evidence I will boldly say that you certainly have one of the keenest eyes in talent evaluation I've ever seen and are truly wasting your immense, NBA level, talents on this blog. You've missed your calling.

Not at all.  Upon searching for any evidence on this site, though, I must admit that I don't have any proof on here to corroborate my statements, but I also didn't post at that time nearly as regularly as I do now. 

Having said that, I tend to remember a lot of random, and often useless, information, and I'm not lying about Jordan, Matthews, etc. (I'm not Chad Ford), but something tells me that even if I did have such evidence, you'd dismiss it anyway as being fabricated, so whatever.  All I can tell you, as well as everyone else, is that I know who I wanted at the time, and I would not continue to harp on such points if I hadn't been, quite surprisingly, right, but go ahead and dismiss me, roll your eyes, and laugh, because to quote Larry Bird, "I know the truth, and that's all that matters to me."

As for the last emboldened part - . You could at least try to indicate your sarcasm, you know.

[Beat LA]

I guess Ainge should be fired and replaced by Beat LA.

He would've definitely got us Jimmy Butler, Wesley Matthews, and Jordan all in one scoop! 

You know, for some reason, I actually didn't really look into the 2011 draft, because I was away at the time for something, and I've never once claimed that I would have taken Jimmy Butler.  I may have used his selection as a point in an argument, yes, but I haven't said that I would have taken the guy.  I do remember thinking that Kenneth Faried could have really helped us, though, but I honestly don't know why I wasn't interested in that particular draft.

On the flip side, I know that you're picking on me, but I do believe that you, and most Celtic fans, would have really enjoyed the teams that I would have put together, and this club would look very different today. 

[Beat LA]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

EDIT: Another thing about '03-'07. Even after the trades, we were left with Rondo, Perkins, and Tony Allen. A future DPOY candidate (perennial all team defense) and another was a four time all-star. Having those three players left over on the roster after trading for Garnett and Allen is a testament to how good Ainge's drafting was from '03-'07.

And why should I, when I only care about the Celtics, lol ?  Look, we're obviously not going to agree here, and that's okay, but I don't understand your point about hindsight at all, given that it's defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary as, "the knowledge and understanding that you have about an event only after it has happened."  By definition, then, my picks AT THE TIME were not done with hindsight in the least, no matter how hard everyone tries to dismiss them. 

My other problem, here, is that if you can't criticize a gm for not even getting a rotational player in the second round, for what can you possibly criticize him?  Missing on non-lottery first rounders don't seem to count, nor does screwing up second round picks seems to bother anyone, so it appears that you're giving him a pass on every draft where he was not somewhere in the lottery . Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

Additionally, taking Sully (which you practically had to do, anyway), does not 'make up' for missing out terribly on Fab, never mind Joseph . I used to think that Ainge was really good at drafting, too, and of course his selections made those two acquisitions possible, but so did a number of other once-in-a-lifetime circumstances, such as Ray and Pierce both being hurt in the same year and Seattle's winning of the number 2 pick in 2007 which allowed them to move Allen in the first place.  Since that time, however (which is close to a decade, now), Danny has largely been simply atrocious, and no one seems to realize it.  I mean, Olynyk?  Really?  Taking him at 16 (had he been available, of course), would have been bad enough, but trading up to get dat billy goat makes the whole thing even worse, imo.

What's really frustrating to me is how a complete moron like myself can look at some blog posts, read over a few scouting reports, watch various youtube clips, and consistently pick far better players at, as you said, much more difficult draft positions.  I probably just got lucky, though.  Honestly - no sarcasm.  I'm not mad at you, btw.

To your bolded: Welcome to NBA drafting. If half your draft picks after the lottery turn out well enough and get second, third contracts, then you are a good NBA drafter. This isn't the NFL where oodles of talent is available throughout the first and second rounds.

That's the standard?  Really?  Wow.  Clearly someone has decided to redefine success ala Papa John's, lol .

[Beat LA]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

I liked Hardaway a lot myself, and he played decently on that joke of a Knicks team this year. I understand you must not be high on KO, to put it nicely. But Olynyk is certainly at least a "serviceable back-up" big man in this league. I think that much isn't very debatable anymore. True 7 footers with point guard skills and a good 3 point shot just don't come around very often. He's has his issues, mostly with consistency and aggressiveness, but he's proven he can not only hit 3's but consistently beat guys on the dribble for drives to the hoop. He'll be in an NBA rotation for a while, especially the way the game is evolving. Plus, Olynyk is one of our more valuable trade chips because nearly every team can use a guy like him. With consistent playing time and some more confidence he could be a real weapon on offense. But even as is, he's got a place in this league for some time to come.

Yeah, I've heard that before to. And I don't think that's true, but he hasn't been bad their either. Every GM misses more than hits there, and he's had some hits too. I do wish he would take a stash guy once in a while but, oh well. When your picking in the middle of the second round, as long as we find a few guys we can use, which we have, I'm happy. Hitting on 2nds, especially ones that aren't 31-36 or so, just doesn't happen much.

The record shows that Ainge is a good, solid drafter. Better than most others in the league. Not the best, but good. Certainly likes certain kinds of players. He loves highly rated guys who fall in the draft (Young, Sullinger, Bradley, Jefferson, Green) and tough, under-sized PF's who were well decorated in college (Sully, Davis, Harangody). But most of those guys went on to good, if not star-level careers.
When you consider everything a GM does, He's pretty clearly one of the best in the league.

I guess I just don't understand, with so many franchises run in near perpetual darkness, how anyone can not be happy with what Ainge has done here.

Woop dee freakin' doo, a 'serviceable backup taken at 13," . How is he a 'true 7 footer,' btw, when he never plays under the basket, blocks shots, or rebounds well, which are all attributes of 'true 7 footers?'  The fact that he's a big guy who can shoot the 3 is not unique, either.  30 years ago, yes, but today, do you know what's truly rare?  Traditional big men, like Hassan Whiteside.

Who area all of these draftees of his who have gone on to have star-level careers, btw, because I can only think of two (and only one if we're going by the guys from your list) - Rondo, although cue the backlash because nothing he ever did here seems to count to most people on this site , and Big Al.  Unless you define 'star' differently from everyone else, who amongst Danny's selections have ever even made an All Star team? 

I'm in agreement with you on his preference for certain types of players, though.  Usually, they're undersized pf's, lol . Ugh.

I think I must have missed a comma. I was saying that a majority of his picks have had good, though not star-level, careers. Sorry bout that.

True 7 footer just means he's legit 7 feet. Not 6'11 with shoes, but 7 feet standing. And while it is more common now than ever before for a big guy to have "Three Point Range", a 7 footer who can consistently hit the 3 at an above average clip is still quite rare. Plus, that's not all Olynyk can do. The dude has real PG-like skills. He's an above-average passer, a great shooter, and he can beat most opposing bigs off the dribble for drives to the hoop. Just by being as tall as he is, he's about an average rebounder (albeit one that, as Evan Turner puts it "Couldn't box his way out of a paper bag"), and he's fairly athletic. Not supremely so, but he's quick enough to be effective at his kind of game. Nevermind the kind of spacing he provides. Why would he play under the basket much? That's not his game. You only want one guy down near the basket on offense most of the time anyway. That's why Noel-Embiid will never work in today's game. One of your bigs has to at least have a knockdown mid-range shot for acceptable spacing. A guy with Olynyk's skill set is the perfect match for a guy like Drummond.

The C's get calls about KO all the time, Zarren said as much earlier in the year. Most coaches would love a guy on their team with his skill set. On the right team, he could start. But even if he doesn't, he's a major weapon. I've seen a bunch of games where Olynyk was a glaring match-up nightmare, he took advantage, and scored a very efficient 15-20+ points. His problem is certainly not a lack of skills, it's a lack of aggressiveness. Even with that, he's a productive NBA-level player who would be in a whole lot of teams top 7 or 8 player rotations. If he can become consistent (with consistent minutes), at his best he could start on teams with a rim-protector around him. That's good for a guy picked 13th in one of the weakest, most poorly regarded draft classes in the past 10 years. You cant, and shouldn't, expect to get an all-star at that spot.

I think these other folks are being a bit hard on you, but they're right. Pretty much universally, no ones saying he's some kind of draft guru with magical power, but he's a dang good drafter. And when you factor in all the other things he does well, he's one of the best in the business. So I guess the question were asking is, who are these GMs your comparing Danny to that find gems at 30 and 58? And if we fire Ainge, as I must assume you've mentioned before, who do we get to replace him? I think it would be funny if we got the other Isiah Thomas to do it. How could anyone beat us with those two? He did a good job when he was a GM didn't he?

No problem , and thanks for clearing up your definition of a 'true 7-footer,' because I honestly thought that you were talking about the way in which such a guy plays the game.  Speaking of which, you honestly don't believe that a Noel-Embiid duo would work in today's game?  Not even defensively?  Wow.  I know that you were only talking about offense, but still.

As for Nolynyk, I think you're the only person I've ever seen on here who would call him athletic in any way, shape, or form, lol . Even for his position - no.  Just no, haha . I'll give you his passing ability, of course, but he seems to think too much out there.  It really is paralysis by over analysis, imo, especially when he continues to use the pump-fake as a weapon, which is great, don't get me wrong, and it can be very effective, but only if using it is predicated by him actually taking shots, never mind making them.  Honestly, the only time I ever saw him just play was in game 1 against the Cavs, and he looked great (at least offensively), but then he reverted back to form.  I was really hoping that he'd have a great series just so we could sucker some other team into taking him, lol , but even that didn't happen.  Sigh.

Finally, who am I comparing him to?  Hmm, probably Bird, Buford, Presti, Morey, the guys in Sacramento (sorry I don't know their names, lol ), Chicago, Portland, any team with Jerry West, haha , Utah, and Minnesota, off the top of my head.  Pat Williams always seems to draft well, too, iirc.  In short - the best, but again, imo; and while I would never hire Zeke as our gm, I must say that if you go back and look at the guys he's drafted - the guy certainly knows talent (Channing Frye aside, ahaha ).  After all, he got Trevor Ariza at 44 in 2004, didn't he?  Sure, he's made mistakes, but he's gotten a lot of good players from where we were drafting during the Big 3 era, and if he wasn't a Pistons legend, I'd at least hire him as a scout, but seeing Isiah Thomas working for the Celtics just doesn't compute.  I'd be like Bird working for the Lakers.

Oops, I almost forgot - with whom would I replace Ainge?  You know, I've actually never thought of that, unless of course Larry wants to take over, haha . Dam you Pitino!

[Beat LA]

Btw, didn't Ainge once say that he understandably tends to judge a player not on how well he performs during the good times, but how he acts and plays during adversity?  I thought I heard that somewhere.  Anyway, why can't we apply the same school of thought to his drafting record?  It seems perfectly fair to me.

[GratefulCs]

Btw, didn't Ainge once say that he understandably tends to judge a player not on how well he performs during the good times, but how he acts and plays during adversity?  I thought I heard that somewhere.  Anyway, why can't we apply the same school of thought to his drafting record?  It seems perfectly fair to me.

to whom are you comparing ainge's drafting?


And on what planet does this magical (and infallible) GM exist?

[Beat LA]

Btw, didn't Ainge once say that he understandably tends to judge a player not on how well he performs during the good times, but how he acts and plays during adversity?  I thought I heard that somewhere.  Anyway, why can't we apply the same school of thought to his drafting record?  It seems perfectly fair to me.

to whom are you comparing ainge's drafting?


And on what planet does this magical (and infallible) GM exist?

I'm comparing him to the guys who have consistently been better than him, and I listed them above. 

As for where this 'magical and infallible' gm exists, well, I'd have to say that, according to many posters, it's right here in Boston, because apparently Ainge is incapable of ever making a single mistake (sarcasm) .

[tarheelsxxiii]

Btw, didn't Ainge once say that he understandably tends to judge a player not on how well he performs during the good times, but how he acts and plays during adversity?  I thought I heard that somewhere.  Anyway, why can't we apply the same school of thought to his drafting record?  It seems perfectly fair to me.

to whom are you comparing ainge's drafting?


And on what planet does this magical (and infallible) GM exist?

I'm comparing him to the guys who have consistently been better than him, and I listed them above. 

As for where this 'magical and infallible' gm exists, well, I'd have to say that, according to many posters, it's right here in Boston, because apparently Ainge is incapable of ever making a single mistake (sarcasm) .

I think you'd have to be crazy to think moving up... for KO... was a good decision. I don't know any one besides Ainge-loving people here that wanted that pick above Giannis, Shroder, even Tim Hardaway Jr. He sucks, he's always going to suck, and it's genuinely embarrassing to be a fan of an organization that would MOVE UP for him.

People are going to want to argue that and I invite you to. There are no statistics you can provide, when taken into context, that suggest KO doesn't suck. Most importantly, his ceiling was the floor... he had zero room to grow, and at our position in a weak draft, you select someone with an upside. Huge, laughable mistake. Such is life for someone handed a championship.

My best friend went to Gonzaga. He feels the same way. /HateonBeatLA

[GratefulCs]

Btw, didn't Ainge once say that he understandably tends to judge a player not on how well he performs during the good times, but how he acts and plays during adversity?  I thought I heard that somewhere.  Anyway, why can't we apply the same school of thought to his drafting record?  It seems perfectly fair to me.

to whom are you comparing ainge's drafting?


And on what planet does this magical (and infallible) GM exist?

I'm comparing him to the guys who have consistently been better than him, and I listed them above. 

As for where this 'magical and infallible' gm exists, well, I'd have to say that, according to many posters, it's right here in Boston, because apparently Ainge is incapable of ever making a single mistake (sarcasm) .

Chicago: tyrus thomas instead of aldridge

Minny: derrick williams #2 overall

Bird: traded kawhi for george hill on draft day

Morey: drafted a guy with an anxiety disorder who never played a game

Utah: burke and burks smell like garbage

Portland: oden anyone?


I guess what i'm saying is that when i look at your examples, the only DRAFTERS i would say are more consistently better are buford and presti.

I also guess i'm saying be thankful for having a great GM. And one who hasn't whiffed on a top pick (yet) like some of your top draft experts