Sherrod Blakely- C's to put a package deal for Aldridge and Matthews

[BDeCosta26]

So let me get this straight - just like 2013, when he tried to trade KG for Deandre Jordan, Ainge is attempting to trade some of our current players to get a guy who should have been a Celtic 6 years ago? *facepalm* Why, it's, it's, brilliant (sarcasm)! Ugh.

Btw, I love Wesley Matthews, but he's already to going to be 30 next year in addition to suffering that injury which certainly won't help his career going forward, and Aldridge isn't coming here, and he'll be 30 in July, so no thanks.  I'd say that Danny should just continue to build our team through the draft as opposed to gathering 'chips' and trading them for another rent-a-team with a 2-3 year window, but he's not good at that, so forget it.  Where can I put my head through a wall, lol ?

Captain Hindsight strikes again!

For real man, you can't point to every single player Ainge passed on who did something in the league and say "UGH! Ainge is horrible! How could he possibly miss DeAndre Jordan/Jimmy Butler etc. in the 2nd round!". Every GM in the league passed on those guys. Your holding him to some kind of impossible, made up standard where he's supposed to hit on every pick we have.

You look at it the wrong way. If you don't have a top 10-15 pick, the chances are MUCH greater that your pick washes out of the league in a few years than it is he becomes a real NBA caliber rotation player. Much like a baseball player at bat, there are ways to hit a higher percentage of those kinda of picks than your contemporaries but it will always be much more likely you fail than you getting a hit. Ainge has proven himself a very capable drafter. Probably top 10 in the league at it. And he's certainly a top 5 GM overall.

Do you not remember what it was like before Ainge? There's only a couple teams in league that wouldn't trade their GM for Ainge, and even the few that wouldn't would seriously consider it. What's the point of getting hung up on every player we didn't pick that turned into someone?

Sigh.  I'm not using hindsight for Deandre Jordan or Wesley Matthews at all, and I've explained my stance on this topic too many times that I honestly don't care anymore, lol .

I hope you didn't take offense to that, I see a lot of your posts around here and I respect your opinions. It just seems to me that whenever someone drafted late and/or near the spot we drafted at (regardless of how late in the draft it was), does something meaningful in the league, your the first one to say "Wow, Ainge is a horrible drafter, he didn't draft Player X when he had the chance, now look at what he's doing, we should've had him! Ugh!". That's 100% hindsight.

Ainge has drafted in the top 10 once in the past nine or ten years, last year, and Smart already looks much better than some of the guys drafted around him. He's picked a few guys who haven't panned out (JJJ, Fab Melo, Marcus Banks, Pruitt) but considering he's been in the league for over ten years and has only had one top-ten pick we actually kept he's had a lot more hits for where we've picked than misses. He's not the best drafter their is, but he's a pretty dang good one and considering everything else he does well we are lucky to have him.

I guess what I'm saying is, drafting after the top-10 is a true crapshoot. You can find valuable players later in the draft, and some guys are clearly better at it than others, but it's still much more likely the guy you pick washes out, and even the guys who are considered the best drafters have multiple misses in those areas of the draft. Like I said, when a baseball player bats .400, he still failed 60% of the time he batted, but we all consider that an amazing average because even for the best hitters it's still much more likely that you fail when you step up to the plate. Drafting in the NBA, especially later than the top 10 or so, should be viewed in much the same way. I just feel like your holding Ainge up to this impossible standard where he should be able to pick the guy who's going to have the greatest career of all the guys left on the board at every position in which he drafts. And that's just not fair, or realistic.

It's not hindsight if the guy I wanted at the time, who also happened to be available when we picked, winds up being the much better player, whether that's immediately or a couple of years down the line.  I also don't agree with your baseball analogy at all, because hitting a baseball, even with scouting reports, is the hardest thing to do in sports, while drafting is not.  The two aren't even on the same level, imo. 

As for Ainge, yes, I do hate the guy, as you've obviously noticed, lol , and what really ticks me off is how everyone seems to laud him as this draft wizard, when the reality is that he hasn't drafted well in a long time, even though I did agree with his picks last year, but I did have other opinions on guys that we should have traded for, like KJ McDaniels.  You forgot to add Giddens, Lester Hudson, Luke Harangody, and Kris Joseph to your list of epic fails by Danny, btw, lol .

Well, maybe you did say you wanted Gianni's at the time (I wasn't around to see it), but even if so, the guy was playing in the 2nd division of the Greek league and wasn't exactly setting it on fire. He had insane measurables, but he was also a guy with huge bust potential. There's been a lot of physical freaks lacking in readily apparent skills that flamed out in the NBA. So instead, he took Olynyk. A 7 footer with PG skills and an NBA level 3 point shot. You can second guess it now, but KO has proven he can play in this league. You may wish we had Giannis, but getting KO at 13 in a VERY week draft was a good pick.

But really? Harangody? Joseph? Your really using middle 2nd rounders as part of the reason you think Ainge is a bad drafter? It's very rare for a guy drafted that late to have any semblance of an NBA career. For every Isaiah Thomas or DeAndre Jordan there's 30 Luke Harangody's. Every GM is going to have more misses than hits that late in the draft. But Ainge has gotten good guys there too. Baby Davis was a 2nd rounder, so was Leon Powe. Ryan Gomes was a good pick that late too.

The higher Ainge has picked, the more hits he's had. And look, I never said he was some kind of draft wizard, but the record shows he is a pretty strong drafter, especially when you acknowledge the huge difference in picking 6th and 26th. He often goes for guys who have clearly translatable skill sets. Sometimes, especially in the past few years, I've wanted him to take guys with higher upsides (which he did this year with Young) but you can't really blame someone picking out of the top 10-15 picks for drafting guys that are the most likely to stick around in the league.

Plus, I don't see what's wrong with the baseball analogy. Sure, it's easier to draft players than it is to hit a baseball. But that doesn't change the fact that, especially around the spots we've drafted recently, that even with all the scouting reports in the world, it's still more likely you fail than it is you hit. Even RC Buford doesn't hit on all his picks. When someone has drafted as many players as Ainge has , you have to look at the total record and his is pretty good. Not the best. But pretty good. Top 10 or so. And drafting is just a part of a GM's job. It just seems totally asinine to point at every player we've ever drafted over all these years and say "Look! Ainge sucks. He drafted Gabe Pruitt late in the 1st and he did nothing!" We're not going to hit on every pick we make. It's just impossible. Especially when you pick late.

Like I've always said, There's probably 5 teams in the league that wouldn't seriously consider trading their GM for ours of they could. When I was a kid and Pitino & Friends were here, I could understand the hate. But Ainge has brought us a chip, we had a real shot at a couple others and he's constantly put us in a better position than we were previously. As Celtic fans, you and I are lucky to have Ainge & Co. Running the show.

And please, I'm sure you won't, but don't take offense. I respect your opinion and I love a good debate. ILS17, thanks for the TP, I'll answer your question in a bit. Just got home from work and I smell like duck prosciutto.

[Beat LA]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

[Beat LA]

So let me get this straight - just like 2013, when he tried to trade KG for Deandre Jordan, Ainge is attempting to trade some of our current players to get a guy who should have been a Celtic 6 years ago? *facepalm* Why, it's, it's, brilliant (sarcasm)! Ugh.

Btw, I love Wesley Matthews, but he's already to going to be 30 next year in addition to suffering that injury which certainly won't help his career going forward, and Aldridge isn't coming here, and he'll be 30 in July, so no thanks.  I'd say that Danny should just continue to build our team through the draft as opposed to gathering 'chips' and trading them for another rent-a-team with a 2-3 year window, but he's not good at that, so forget it.  Where can I put my head through a wall, lol ?

Captain Hindsight strikes again!

For real man, you can't point to every single player Ainge passed on who did something in the league and say "UGH! Ainge is horrible! How could he possibly miss DeAndre Jordan/Jimmy Butler etc. in the 2nd round!". Every GM in the league passed on those guys. Your holding him to some kind of impossible, made up standard where he's supposed to hit on every pick we have.

You look at it the wrong way. If you don't have a top 10-15 pick, the chances are MUCH greater that your pick washes out of the league in a few years than it is he becomes a real NBA caliber rotation player. Much like a baseball player at bat, there are ways to hit a higher percentage of those kinda of picks than your contemporaries but it will always be much more likely you fail than you getting a hit. Ainge has proven himself a very capable drafter. Probably top 10 in the league at it. And he's certainly a top 5 GM overall.

Do you not remember what it was like before Ainge? There's only a couple teams in league that wouldn't trade their GM for Ainge, and even the few that wouldn't would seriously consider it. What's the point of getting hung up on every player we didn't pick that turned into someone?

Sigh.  I'm not using hindsight for Deandre Jordan or Wesley Matthews at all, and I've explained my stance on this topic too many times that I honestly don't care anymore, lol .

I hope you didn't take offense to that, I see a lot of your posts around here and I respect your opinions. It just seems to me that whenever someone drafted late and/or near the spot we drafted at (regardless of how late in the draft it was), does something meaningful in the league, your the first one to say "Wow, Ainge is a horrible drafter, he didn't draft Player X when he had the chance, now look at what he's doing, we should've had him! Ugh!". That's 100% hindsight.

Ainge has drafted in the top 10 once in the past nine or ten years, last year, and Smart already looks much better than some of the guys drafted around him. He's picked a few guys who haven't panned out (JJJ, Fab Melo, Marcus Banks, Pruitt) but considering he's been in the league for over ten years and has only had one top-ten pick we actually kept he's had a lot more hits for where we've picked than misses. He's not the best drafter their is, but he's a pretty dang good one and considering everything else he does well we are lucky to have him.

I guess what I'm saying is, drafting after the top-10 is a true crapshoot. You can find valuable players later in the draft, and some guys are clearly better at it than others, but it's still much more likely the guy you pick washes out, and even the guys who are considered the best drafters have multiple misses in those areas of the draft. Like I said, when a baseball player bats .400, he still failed 60% of the time he batted, but we all consider that an amazing average because even for the best hitters it's still much more likely that you fail when you step up to the plate. Drafting in the NBA, especially later than the top 10 or so, should be viewed in much the same way. I just feel like your holding Ainge up to this impossible standard where he should be able to pick the guy who's going to have the greatest career of all the guys left on the board at every position in which he drafts. And that's just not fair, or realistic.

TP for BDeCosta26 and to Beat LA, who should we draft this year? Honest question no sarcasm.

Well, I know that this is going to sound like a cop-out, but it'll depend on, as always, who's available, unless of course you're asking me to state who I'd realistically take in a perfect world scenario, lol .

Absolutley that is completely relevant.

this excercize is meaningless but lets look at it this way

assuming we dont trade picks
Okafor
Towns
Russell
Winslow
Mudiay
Hezonja
Prozingis
Johnson
WCS
Turner
Oubre
Kaminsky
Grant
Booker
Lyles
Who do you want at 16?

I actually think that 16 is the hardest pick to make, and let me explain why.  Not only to we have to be concerned with taking the best player, but the teams picking before our other spot at 28 present serious problems.  For the sake of argument, let's say that we take Upshaw at 16.  From that point on, Milwaukee, Houston, Chicago, Portland, Cleveland, San Antonio, and Memphis, not to mention the Lakers, have a shot at guys like Delon Wright and Tyler Harvey, both of whom I'd love to get.  Portland took Lillard from Weber, Chicago always seems to know what they're doing, Morey got Parsons in the second round and continues to draft extremely well, and then you've got the Spurs to worry about, as well as the Lakers. 

Alternatively, we could take Wright at 16, but then Upshaw would likely be scooped up by any of the aforementioned teams, so now he's gone, and I can see Harvey going to the Spurs or Blazers, especially with Ginobili likely retiring.

Finally, imagine this - we somehow get Wright at 16 and Harvey at 28, only to wait for Upshaw at 33.  Sounds great, right?  There's only one problem - Minnesota and Houston pick right before us in the second round, and I can't see either team passing on that guy.  Do you see what I'm getting at, here?  In a perfect world, we could get a fantastic haul this year, but in reality, we likely won't get any of those guys, either because they've already been taken or because Danny screws up.  Again.  Which would really hurt our future, imo.

But the idea is that you really like Harvey, Wright, and Upshaw?

I dont like Wright, Harvey and Upshaw Id like at 28 and 33, but harvey is a horrible horrible defender. like he got picked on at eastern washington.

Yikes

I do like at least a few other players, but yes, I do think that Wright, Harvey, and Upshaw could definitely help us.  This is exactly why I made a thread about draft sleepers, because we don't have a lottery pick, and a guy like Harvey could really help us out, imo.  He'd easily be the best shooter and scorer on our team, he can create his own shot, pass, and get to the hoop, so what's not to like?  Why don't you like Wright, btw?  Is it because of his age, or is it something else, and who would you rather have, instead?  I'm not saying that in a criticizing manner, btw.  I'm just simply curious .

[DarkAzcura]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

EDIT: Another thing about '03-'07. Even after the trades, we were left with Rondo, Perkins, and Tony Allen. A future DPOY candidate (perennial all team defense) and another was a four time all-star. Having those three players left over on the roster after trading for Garnett and Allen is a testament to how good Ainge's drafting was from '03-'07.

[GratefulCs]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

hey!

It's darkazcura!


I see you post all the time on realgm


Good to see you


And a TP

[DarkAzcura]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

Sorry, dude, but you are holding Ainge to a ridiculous standard. Pile up the draft records of all the teams since 2003, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge didn't rank out in the top 5 based on his average draft position. There have been a couple analytic studies done on the draft over a period of time, and Ainge generally always ranks out in the top 5. I don't have the links off hand, and the studies are a couple years old at this point so things are probably a bit different now. The fact that you are holding those missed second round picks against Ainge is a little silly considering he is one of the better drafters in the second round in the league (or he was until recently). The reason the misses stick out to you more here is because you clearly aren't paying enough attention to other teams' successes and failures.

Also, most second round picks are out of the league before training camp even begins, lol. Missing in the second round should NEVER be held against any GM. I'd bet 80% of second round picks are out of the league before their rookie contract is up. Last I checked Ainge has some of the highest retention rates for second round picks in the league since he became GM. Again, no offense, but you seem to not really understand how often teams miss in the draft if you think Ainge is horrible in the draft. This has nothing to do with believing he is a draft wizard, which I don't think he is necessarily. He's missed maybe twice or three times in the first round since 2003. Most owners would kill to have that kind of draft record considering our average position in the draft since 2003. You need to do a bit more research and not be so emotional that Ainge is not picking the guys you think/thought are the best (and to your credit actually turned out pretty good).

It's great that you felt Jordan and couple of these guys would be better picks than what we got. Good for you, honestly (and I mean it), but as everyone under the sun has pointed out already, every team in the league passed on those players. Regardless of it being viewed as hindsight by you personally or not is just completely irrelevant. These guys dropped in the second round, and Ainge was one of 28 other teams that passed on said player. By definition, it is definitely hindsight. Holding Ainge under the fire for missing is just ridiculous even if you thought that player would be good.

Ainge's drafting during the Big 3 era left a lot to be desired to be honest. I'll admit to that, but Ainge's drafting from 2003-2007 is what led us to getting Garnett and Allen. Without his solid picks, we would have never gotten both players in the Summer of 2007. Ainge's drafting from 2008-2011 was pretty meh except for Avery Bradley. Totally admit that, but his mediocre drafting from 2008-2011 isn't enough to take away from his great drafting from 2003-2007 which led us to the championship. Since then, Ainge's drafting has been better with picks like Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and Young. Before you say it, yes, Olynyk was a GREAT pick at 13 regardless of Giannis being available. That draft was pretty junky, and Olynyk is performing like a top 7 player in his draft. Any time you choose a player that performs higher than his position in the draft is a win. Melo was obviously a miss, but Sully makes up for it. Not sure why Ainge struggled in the draft during the Big 3's prime years, but he seems to be back on track with his great drafting from 2003-2007.

This isn't even really subjective. If you pile up the retention rates of players getting second contracts and average win shares by draft position, Ainge would be near the top of the league in draft record. It's fairly black and white. It's objective, and you are pretty wrong in general about his overall draft record relative to the rest of the league.

hey!

It's darkazcura!


I see you post all the time on realgm


Good to see you


And a TP

Hey man! Gotta hit up all the Celtic forums, haha. Do you post over there too? Sorry, I'm really bad at remembering user names.  TP to you too!

[Moranis]

Here are the last 7 drafts

2008 - Giddens (awful), Erden (excellent)
2009 - Hudson (blah)
2010 - Bradley (great), Harangody (average)
2011 - Johnson (awful), Moore (good)
2012 - Sullinger (excellent), Melo (awful), Joseph (blah)
2013 - Olynyk (great)
2014 - Smart, Young - too early to rate either

Ainge has been really hit and miss the last 7 years in the draft, so it is really hard to tell how he will do with all the draft picks. 

[BDeCosta26]

BDeCosta26, I'm going to respond here instead of quoting everything so as to not take up too much space, lol .

Anyway, in fairness, I didn't even look at clips of Giannis, and the guy I who thought was the bpa at 16 was Tim Hardaway JR, and he's turned out to be much better than I anticipated; but no, to answer your question, I wasn't a Giannis guy (and I would never try to rewrite history like chad ford, haha ), although I was deeply disappointed that Ainge actually traded up to get Kelly Nolynyk, of all people.  I mean, really? *facepalm*

As far as the draft goes, I don't see why including guys like Harangody and Joseph is ridiculous, because we're talking about Danny's ENTIRE draft record, not just when he has the chance to pick between 15-20.  Additionally, people like to say that he has a knack for finding guys in the second round, so that's why I brought said players up.  I know that you can't hit a home run with every pick, but what really bothers me about Ainge's selections isn't just that they're bad players, it's that they're so horrible that many of them are out of the league before the end of a typical rookie contract, and there's no way to sugarcoat that, I'm sorry.  As you said, though, even the best screw up, like Buford did with Kyle Anderson.  His skill set is fine, but his physical attributes will likely never allow him to be even a serviceable backup in the NBA, because he's simply too slow with zero lateral quickness.  He reminds me of KO in that respect.

Btw, do you happen to know if Jim Sciutto likes melon (sarcasm), lol ?

I liked Hardaway a lot myself, and he played decently on that joke of a Knicks team this year. I understand you must not be high on KO, to put it nicely. But Olynyk is certainly at least a "serviceable back-up" big man in this league. I think that much isn't very debatable anymore. True 7 footers with point guard skills and a good 3 point shot just don't come around very often. He's has his issues, mostly with consistency and aggressiveness, but he's proven he can not only hit 3's but consistently beat guys on the dribble for drives to the hoop. He'll be in an NBA rotation for a while, especially the way the game is evolving. Plus, Olynyk is one of our more valuable trade chips because nearly every team can use a guy like him. With consistent playing time and some more confidence he could be a real weapon on offense. But even as is, he's got a place in this league for some time to come.

Yeah, I've heard that before to. And I don't think that's true, but he hasn't been bad their either. Every GM misses more than hits there, and he's had some hits too. I do wish he would take a stash guy once in a while but, oh well. When your picking in the middle of the second round, as long as we find a few guys we can use, which we have, I'm happy. Hitting on 2nds, especially ones that aren't 31-36 or so, just doesn't happen much.

The record shows that Ainge is a good, solid drafter. Better than most others in the league. Not the best, but good. Certainly likes certain kinds of players. He loves highly rated guys who fall in the draft (Young, Sullinger, Bradley, Jefferson, Green) and tough, under-sized PF's who were well decorated in college (Sully, Davis, Harangody). But most of those guys went on to good, if not star-level careers.
When you consider everything a GM does, He's pretty clearly one of the best in the league.

I guess I just don't understand, with so many franchises run in near perpetual darkness, how anyone can not be happy with what Ainge has done here.

[JBcat]

Here are the last 7 drafts

2008 - Giddens (awful), Erden (excellent)
2009 - Hudson (blah)
2010 - Bradley (great), Harangody (average)
2011 - Johnson (awful), Moore (good)
2012 - Sullinger (excellent), Melo (awful), Joseph (blah)
2013 - Olynyk (great)
2014 - Smart, Young - too early to rate either

Ainge has been really hit and miss the last 7 years in the draft, so it is really hard to tell how he will do with all the draft picks.

You need to put things into context where players were drafted.  Most second round picks don't become rotation players so it's like a bonus if one does.  You can basically say the same thing with players drafted at the end of the first round.

Now if Ainge was getting these misses with top 10 to 20 range picks then I'd be concerned with his drafting strategy.  Overall I'd say his drafting has been above average in comparison to his peers.

[Moranis]

Here are the last 7 drafts

2008 - Giddens (awful), Erden (excellent)
2009 - Hudson (blah)
2010 - Bradley (great), Harangody (average)
2011 - Johnson (awful), Moore (good)
2012 - Sullinger (excellent), Melo (awful), Joseph (blah)
2013 - Olynyk (great)
2014 - Smart, Young - too early to rate either

Ainge has been really hit and miss the last 7 years in the draft, so it is really hard to tell how he will do with all the draft picks.

You need to put things into context where players were drafted.  Most second round picks don't become rotation players so it's like a bonus if one does.  You can basically say the same thing with players drafted at the end of the first round.

Now if Ainge was getting these misses with top 10 to 20 range picks then I'd be concerned with his drafting strategy.  Overall I'd say his drafting has been above average in comparison to his peers.

my ratings were obviously based on draft position.

[Roy H.]

I've seen a bit of criticism for the Lester Hudson pick.  Really?  He's stuck around in the NBA for four seasons, which isn't bad for the 58th pick in the draft.

[JHTruth]

Here are the last 7 drafts

2008 - Giddens (awful), Erden (excellent)
2009 - Hudson (blah)
2010 - Bradley (great), Harangody (average)
2011 - Johnson (awful), Moore (good)
2012 - Sullinger (excellent), Melo (awful), Joseph (blah)
2013 - Olynyk (great)
2014 - Smart, Young - too early to rate either

Ainge has been really hit and miss the last 7 years in the draft, so it is really hard to tell how he will do with all the draft picks.

But the point is where those guys are picked you're lucky to get a non-bust at all. The bust rate past the top-6-7 picks is around 70% +. I mean you guys are expecting him to get all-stars int he twenties, it's ridiculous..

[JHTruth]

In relation to the original topic, I'd trade anything we have, even smart to get LMA and Matthews here. That's something you can build a title team around

[JHTruth]

I'd go really crazy and see if we could get LMA and Cousins here. then just fill out the roster with rookies haha

[moiso]

I've seen a bit of criticism for the Lester Hudson pick.  Really?  He's stuck around in the NBA for four seasons, which isn't bad for the 58th pick in the draft.

The main issue with the Lester Hudson pick are the two players that we could have drafted that were picked after Hudson... Chinemelu Elonu and Robert Dozier. 

I see why people would be against the Hudson pick.