Is it time to consider whether the Celtics made a mistake with Brad Stevens>

[Monkhouse]

FlexMonk9,

If you guys think Sully plays good defense then you must be his mommy. Since there are three of you, then the other two of you are just bad judges of talent.

Let me guess I'm his daddy and his mommy. Sully is a bad defender, but we cannot make that judgement until we get an actual center who can compliment a PF.

[TheFlex]

FlexMonk9,

If you guys think Sully plays good defense then you must be his mommy. Since there are three of you, then the other two of you are just bad judges of talent.

Sweet argument bro. You lost. Bye bye.

[KeepRondo]

FlexMonk9,

If you guys think Sully plays good defense then you must be his mommy. Since there are three of you, then the other two of you are just bad judges of talent.

Sweet argument bro. You lost. Bye bye.

oh no I lost a Celtics blog thread. 

[Rondo9]

You've made an assertion without providing any evidence other than the eye test. Until you can back it up with legitimate facts, then your claim is shallow.

[Celtics4ever]

Those aren't stats, those are physical measurements that may or may not correlate to one's ability to play basketball. The stats suggest that such physical disadvantages have not hindered Sullinger's ability to play at least average individual and team defense.

Ok Papa Sullinger, keep thinking that.   He is slow and reacts slow on D, as you watch future games you will see, that we have popped your kool-aid bubble.  No one is calling asking about Sully, Stevens does not trust Sully on D.  You want stats, I'll  be your huckleberry!



How about Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

In that stat per 48 opposing PF are  at 21.2 PER and projecting at 25 points.  Boy that is some good D.  If one studies this you find he is a better C than PF, trouble is he is short to play C.  But with his speed he plays it better even if they shoot 50% from the field on him because he can't jump.   

Also check out of Clutch Statistics  DEF rating of  124.7   and -17.0 in Clutch time, no wonder he sits where games are close.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS12.HTM#pstats

Proof he can't play D when it matters.

Sweet argument bro. You lost. Bye bye.

You got your stats, Hello.  Waiting for your drivel spin on it.

[cb8883]

He is signed to a 6 year for a contract. Let him learn while we stink , and next year we sign a max all-star(or trade for one ) and get a good draft pick as more bait plus brooklyns picks .

Fireworks 

Yeah...what max all star wants to come to freezing cold Boston? The bars close at 130 here! The only way to build a contender for a mid market team is to tank hard. Boston just needs to commit to the tank and everything will fall into place.

[Boris Badenov]

He is signed to a 6 year for a contract. Let him learn while we stink , and next year we sign a max all-star(or trade for one ) and get a good draft pick as more bait plus brooklyns picks .

Fireworks 

Yeah...what max all star wants to come to freezing cold Boston? The bars close at 130 here! The only way to build a contender for a mid market team is to tank hard. Boston just needs to commit to the tank and everything will fall into place.

This is critical.

[Boris Badenov]

Is anyone else enjoying this thread solely because it involves an argument between two people with "Rondo" in their names?

[Rondo9]

Is anyone else enjoying this thread solely because it involves an argument between two people with "Rondo" in their names?

 

[GreenFaith1819]

He is signed to a 6 year for a contract. Let him learn while we stink , and next year we sign a max all-star(or trade for one ) and get a good draft pick as more bait plus brooklyns picks .

Fireworks 

Yeah...what max all star wants to come to freezing cold Boston? The bars close at 130 here! The only way to build a contender for a mid market team is to tank hard. Boston just needs to commit to the tank and everything will fall into place.

And if BOS commits to "Tanking Hard", we'll take about 5-8 years just to make the playoffs, much less finals or banners.

But we'll be fun to watch, right? All those Rooks running around.

[Endless Paradise]

Wait... the bars really close at 1:30 in Boston?

... I once started my night at 1:30.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

No. I may not like the rotations or minutes played by some at times but it's still too early. He does good things and still has room and time to learn and correct his mistakes.

[BitterJim]

Those aren't stats, those are physical measurements that may or may not correlate to one's ability to play basketball. The stats suggest that such physical disadvantages have not hindered Sullinger's ability to play at least average individual and team defense.

Ok Papa Sullinger, keep thinking that.   He is slow and reacts slow on D, as you watch future games you will see, that we have popped your kool-aid bubble.  No one is calling asking about Sully, Stevens does not trust Sully on D.  You want stats, I'll  be your huckleberry!



How about Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

In that stat per 48 opposing PF are  at 21.2 PER and projecting at 25 points.  Boy that is some good D.  If one studies this you find he is a better C than PF, trouble is he is short to play C.  But with his speed he plays it better even if they shoot 50% from the field on him because he can't jump.   

Also check out of Clutch Statistics  DEF rating of  124.7   and -17.0 in Clutch time, no wonder he sits where games are close.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS12.HTM#pstats

Proof he can't play D when it matters.

Sweet argument bro. You lost. Bye bye.

You got your stats, Hello.  Waiting for your drivel spin on it.

Those stats are pretty interesting, except for the fact that he played a lot with KO to begin the year (and now as well), and quite often covered the other team's center in that time. 

Also, trying to compare him to other members of the team (ex. KO) is useless without showing the stats of those players for comparison

[BitterJim]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

I'm trying to find where I said that, but all I see is a straw man

He's still in bad shape so what's your point? That he's slightly in better shape but still in bad shape?

I think you better go back through the thread and read it, I was saying that using combine stats to talk about what kind of shape someone is in is useless, especially years after the fact.

Critical reading, dude.

[KeepRondo]

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

They both are bad, get some glasses, it might help, and watch some games and watch how poorly he rotates.  They do not have stats for slow feet, bad rotation, laziness or out of shape but if they did Sully would be on the top.

But you want stats here are some, from his athletic tests.

game has had more to do with his lack of elite physical tools than with his on-court performance, though. He posted the sixth-worst max. vertical of the 2012 NBA Draft Combine and finished last in both the lane agility drill and the ¾-court sprint.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/jared-sullinger-closer-look


Lane Agility 
12.77 Sullinger
11.3   Zeller
10.42 Olynyk - Surprising result.

3/4 Court Sprint
3.81 Sullinger
3.4 Zeller
3.59 Olynyk

Standing Vertical
29.5" Sullinger
30" Zeller
24.5" Olynyk

Max Vertical
30" Sullinger
34" Zeller
29.5"  Olynyk

Bench Press 185 lbs.
9  Sullinger
16 Zeller
5 Olynyk

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba-draft-combine-athleticism-test-analysis

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/5/19/4343934/nba-draft-2013-official-combine-measurements-results-comparisons-bigs

Strength can be gained easily so bench press is the least valuable stat.  It will go up with NBA training.   All three of these guys have decent frame, none of them have real beastly shoulders to stack mass upon.

Sully is slow.   KO is playing with the bench a lot so all those fancy stats do not reflect that.   My guess is Stevens would rather finish with a guy that can run up and down the court.  Sully can jump higher.

These guys all have some skills but Zeller is average athletically but a decent runner.   Sully is weak, subpar strength and slow.   KO is weak and can't jump.

Speed and Jumping are two of the hardest things to gain athletically.   Strength is easy.  My son went from benching 85 to 185 in less than a year he is a teen.

They have skills in shooting somewhat.  Passing most definitely.   One is an average NBA defender and the other two are weak.   I think their improvement in these areas will be finite given their limited tools, that being said, these results would blow away 99% of guys off the street.  But in the NBA, athletic ability matters it is not the end all.   I always hear Bird could not jump or run but he was a much better athlete than any of these three before he hurt his achilles.   He also had superior skills and superior anticipation and basketball IQ.   I can see flashes of this IQ in KO.   Sully has his derriere which he uses to carve out space and has real good hands.   Zeller can run and at this point, I think he has the most potential of the three, as he is the best athlete and knows his limitations and plays within them.

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

right here DUDE. Lol. All I'm saying is Sully is still in miserable shape so these numbers are probably still accurate. Maybe he's slightly in better shape.