Is it time to consider whether the Celtics made a mistake with Brad Stevens>

[MBunge]

I'd agree with others that it's too early to condemn Stevens.  I do think his grace period is running out with these players.  If this team wins 25 games again this season, there is no way these players are going to keep listening to him.

Mike

[vjcsmoke]

I realize the Celtics have talent issues but how can the Celtics lose to Charlotte and the Knicks which are terrible teams?   The C's also have a problem holding leads - they have lost a lot of games after leading going into the 4th quarter.  I'm beginning to wonder if the Celtics have made a mistake in hiring Brad - he can't seem to motivate the team to perform at a consistent level (except to exhibit consistent poor play...can't play defense at all).

MikeB

LOL.  Because we're a bad team.   And overall we are also a very young team. Ask me again when we have real and established talent and I'll be willing to be as critical as you are.

[KeepRondo]

I think it is time to consider that the Celtics made a mistake taking Sully and KO, two of the worst athletic performing big men in NBA combine recent history.  It is painfully obvious that they are terrible defenders but both would be ok bench players.

Defensively, Sullinger actually ranked well above average against both the pick-and-roll defender and roll man, according to Synergy, which no doubt earned him Brad Stevens' trust as the season went on.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/player/hollinger/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Sully has gotten visibly stronger and quicker this year. I would expect his defense to have improved.

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

Or you can try using your eyes.   
I don't need to be a NBA stat geek to know whether or not Sully is a bad defender.

[GratefulCs]

In his first couple of years, Doc didn't do so well.


Then he got actual talent and won.


I think we should wait until the celtics have a talented roster

[Celtics4ever]

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

They both are bad, get some glasses, it might help, and watch some games and watch how poorly he rotates.  They do not have stats for slow feet, bad rotation, laziness or out of shape but if they did Sully would be on the top.

But you want stats here are some, from his athletic tests.

game has had more to do with his lack of elite physical tools than with his on-court performance, though. He posted the sixth-worst max. vertical of the 2012 NBA Draft Combine and finished last in both the lane agility drill and the ¾-court sprint.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/jared-sullinger-closer-look


Lane Agility 
12.77 Sullinger
11.3   Zeller
10.42 Olynyk - Surprising result.

3/4 Court Sprint
3.81 Sullinger
3.4 Zeller
3.59 Olynyk

Standing Vertical
29.5" Sullinger
30" Zeller
24.5" Olynyk

Max Vertical
30" Sullinger
34" Zeller
29.5"  Olynyk

Bench Press 185 lbs.
9  Sullinger
16 Zeller
5 Olynyk

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba-draft-combine-athleticism-test-analysis

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/5/19/4343934/nba-draft-2013-official-combine-measurements-results-comparisons-bigs

Strength can be gained easily so bench press is the least valuable stat.  It will go up with NBA training.   All three of these guys have decent frame, none of them have real beastly shoulders to stack mass upon.

Sully is slow.   KO is playing with the bench a lot so all those fancy stats do not reflect that.   My guess is Stevens would rather finish with a guy that can run up and down the court.  Sully can jump higher.

These guys all have some skills but Zeller is average athletically but a decent runner.   Sully is weak, subpar strength and slow.   KO is weak and can't jump.

Speed and Jumping are two of the hardest things to gain athletically.   Strength is easy.  My son went from benching 85 to 185 in less than a year he is a teen.

They have skills in shooting somewhat.  Passing most definitely.   One is an average NBA defender and the other two are weak.   I think their improvement in these areas will be finite given their limited tools, that being said, these results would blow away 99% of guys off the street.  But in the NBA, athletic ability matters it is not the end all.   I always hear Bird could not jump or run but he was a much better athlete than any of these three before he hurt his achilles.   He also had superior skills and superior anticipation and basketball IQ.   I can see flashes of this IQ in KO.   Sully has his derriere which he uses to carve out space and has real good hands.   Zeller can run and at this point, I think he has the most potential of the three, as he is the best athlete and knows his limitations and plays within them. 

[Rondo9]

I think it is time to consider that the Celtics made a mistake taking Sully and KO, two of the worst athletic performing big men in NBA combine recent history.  It is painfully obvious that they are terrible defenders but both would be ok bench players.

Defensively, Sullinger actually ranked well above average against both the pick-and-roll defender and roll man, according to Synergy, which no doubt earned him Brad Stevens' trust as the season went on.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/player/hollinger/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

Sully has gotten visibly stronger and quicker this year. I would expect his defense to have improved.

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

Or you can try using your eyes.   
I don't need to be a NBA stat geek to know whether or not Sully is a bad defender.

But the stats say that Sullinger is a good defender

[deekhead]

I realize the Celtics have talent issues but how can the Celtics lose to Charlotte and the Knicks which are terrible teams?   The C's also have a problem holding leads - they have lost a lot of games after leading going into the 4th quarter.  I'm beginning to wonder if the Celtics have made a mistake in hiring Brad - he can't seem to motivate the team to perform at a consistent level (except to exhibit consistent poor play...can't play defense at all).

MikeB

BS's  ASPG and team captain borders on the un-coachable and insists on "doing his own thing" to the detriment of the team, undermining Brad's leadership and setting a demoralizing tone.

No surprise there.... certainly not unexpected.

Once  Rondo  is gone and some additional sorting out occurs, BS has a chance to coach-up the remaining players... and then he's off and running.... with his own team/players/playing style in tow.

Give him 2 years beyond Rondo's departure.

Until then, too early to tell if he's a legit NBA coach.

Deek

[vinnie]

I'm not sure his Mr. Rogers' personality is cut out for the NBA.

[GreenFaith1819]

No, we have good coach in Brad Stevens, and he will win in BOS if given time and more talent.

He already has the C's as 2nd in developing talent:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4716269/insider-cs-tops-in-developing-talent

I don't have Insider, but here is an excerpt from the article:

From the Insider story: "Maybe the biggest feather in Stevens' cap is the play of Tyler Zeller, acquired before the season from Cleveland. Zeller has been a far more efficient player under Stevens by focusing his game closer to the hoop. Last season, according to Basketball-Reference.com, 15 percent of his shots were long 2s. This season, that's down to 2 percent. Meanwhile, Zeller's rebounding, assists and foul-drawing are up, and his turnovers are down. His true shooting percentage has skyrocketed to a Tyson Chandler-like 71 percent. Stevens' ability to get his guys to play to their strengths bodes well for the Boston rebuild."

Just give him time and be patient we'll turn this thing around.

[Rondo9]

I realize the Celtics have talent issues but how can the Celtics lose to Charlotte and the Knicks which are terrible teams?   The C's also have a problem holding leads - they have lost a lot of games after leading going into the 4th quarter.  I'm beginning to wonder if the Celtics have made a mistake in hiring Brad - he can't seem to motivate the team to perform at a consistent level (except to exhibit consistent poor play...can't play defense at all).

MikeB

It's all Rondo's fault. 

BS's  ASPG and team captain borders on the un-coachable and insists on "doing his own thing" to the detriment of the team, undermining Brad's leadership and setting a demoralizing tone.

No surprise there.... certainly not unexpected.

Once  Rondo  is gone and some additional sorting out occurs, BS has a chance to coach-up the remaining players... and then he's off and running.... with his own team/players/playing style in tow.

Give him 2 years beyond Rondo's departure.

Until then, too early to tell if he's a legit NBA coach.

Deek

[Neurotic Guy]

I realize the Celtics have talent issues but how can the Celtics lose to Charlotte and the Knicks which are terrible teams?   The C's also have a problem holding leads - they have lost a lot of games after leading going into the 4th quarter.  I'm beginning to wonder if the Celtics have made a mistake in hiring Brad - he can't seem to motivate the team to perform at a consistent level (except to exhibit consistent poor play...can't play defense at all).

MikeB

See bold.  I'm not sure you really realize this. 

The C's lost to Charlotte and the Knicks partly because on any given night anyone can lose to anyone (see Lakers over Spurs), but also because we are not any more talented than either of those teams.

[j804]

people wanted to drive doc rivers out of town too when the C's were losing. then he gets ray allen/KG and people consider him the best coach.

Lets give Stevens some slack here. more than any other sport, basketball is dependent on stars and right now the C's dont have any.

we have Alot of nice complimentary role players, however in the NBA you need stars. You could make the argument that Green is playing like an all-star this year. But, Rondo needs to step it up. we need someone else who can score. The assists/rebounds are nice. But PLEASE rondo get back to being the player you were in our playoff runs where you would score 17ppg

Yup his offense is really hurting us I love the guy but am wearing thin on him when he's in especially now that he's shown nothing on that end he just gets sagged off of spacing is horrible with him in there. His defense on the other end has fallen off a cliff too. I dont mind keeping him but not for max money.

[Rondo9]

people wanted to drive doc rivers out of town too when the C's were losing. then he gets ray allen/KG and people consider him the best coach.

Lets give Stevens some slack here. more than any other sport, basketball is dependent on stars and right now the C's dont have any.

we have Alot of nice complimentary role players, however in the NBA you need stars. You could make the argument that Green is playing like an all-star this year. But, Rondo needs to step it up. we need someone else who can score. The assists/rebounds are nice. But PLEASE rondo get back to being the player you were in our playoff runs where you would score 17ppg

Yup his offense is really hurting us I love the guy but am wearing thin on him when he's in especially now that he's shown nothing on that end he just gets sagged off of spacing is horrible with him in there. His defense on the other end has fallen off a cliff too. I dont mind keeping him but not for max money.

Yet he leads the league in assists and I'm sure he leads all Point Guards in rebounding.

[SHAQATTACK]

Not ready to toss him under the bus yet.   

He is making errors ...but there are a lot worse coaches


He is good as the coach for,OKC at least . 

Stevens has washed up players, youngsters , and basically Rondo,and Green to work with.

So ...he doesn't have Duncan, James, Harden , Durrant , Love , or any superstars to work with.

I mean you can only do so much with this poorly assembled group........a group built on expiring contracts , and trades designed to get assets and deal away older productive vets.

If DA was serious about winning with this group he d kept Hump .

I said it million times ...nothing is seriously going to,change till Wallace is dumped ,his salary is that of a top,level player .....just money tossed away IMO .

DA may have to play the lottery more serious .....team needs serious upgrades soon .....or his job is going g to be discussed.

[freshinthehouse]

I'd agree with others that it's too early to condemn Stevens.  I do think his grace period is running out with these players.  If this team wins 25 games again this season, there is no way these players are going to keep listening to him.

Mike

I don't think that's always the case.  Brooks lead the Thunder to a few 60 loss seasons, and those guys still rally around that dude.  Heck, I'd say the only reason he hasn't been fired is to keep the players happy.

Also, I can't imagine that more than 2 or 3 players from this current group will actually be with this team 2-3 years from now.  This is hardly the core to our next championship contender.  We have a long ways to go, and my guess is we are in for at least one or two more losing seasons.