Is it time to consider whether the Celtics made a mistake with Brad Stevens>

[knuckleballer]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

[Jailan34]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

Work ethic.

[Granath]

Hmmm...did the Celtics make a mistake with Brad Stevens?
Did the Celtics make a mistake with Brad Stevens?
Did the Celtics make a mistake with Brad Stevens?

I think that's enough consideration.




No, they did not.

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

[knuckleballer]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

Work ethic.

Yeah, and I find that so frustrating because I think he would be a noticeably better player.  Being a highly paid professional athlete, there is no excuse to not be in the best or near best shape possible.

[Rondo9]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

[TheFlex]

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

They both are bad, get some glasses, it might help, and watch some games and watch how poorly he rotates.  They do not have stats for slow feet, bad rotation, laziness or out of shape but if they did Sully would be on the top.

But you want stats here are some, from his athletic tests.

game has had more to do with his lack of elite physical tools than with his on-court performance, though. He posted the sixth-worst max. vertical of the 2012 NBA Draft Combine and finished last in both the lane agility drill and the ¾-court sprint.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/jared-sullinger-closer-look


Lane Agility 
12.77 Sullinger
11.3   Zeller
10.42 Olynyk - Surprising result.

3/4 Court Sprint
3.81 Sullinger
3.4 Zeller
3.59 Olynyk

Standing Vertical
29.5" Sullinger
30" Zeller
24.5" Olynyk

Max Vertical
30" Sullinger
34" Zeller
29.5"  Olynyk

Bench Press 185 lbs.
9  Sullinger
16 Zeller
5 Olynyk

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba-draft-combine-athleticism-test-analysis

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/5/19/4343934/nba-draft-2013-official-combine-measurements-results-comparisons-bigs

Strength can be gained easily so bench press is the least valuable stat.  It will go up with NBA training.   All three of these guys have decent frame, none of them have real beastly shoulders to stack mass upon.

Sully is slow.   KO is playing with the bench a lot so all those fancy stats do not reflect that.   My guess is Stevens would rather finish with a guy that can run up and down the court.  Sully can jump higher.

These guys all have some skills but Zeller is average athletically but a decent runner.   Sully is weak, subpar strength and slow.   KO is weak and can't jump.

Speed and Jumping are two of the hardest things to gain athletically.   Strength is easy.  My son went from benching 85 to 185 in less than a year he is a teen.

They have skills in shooting somewhat.  Passing most definitely.   One is an average NBA defender and the other two are weak.   I think their improvement in these areas will be finite given their limited tools, that being said, these results would blow away 99% of guys off the street.  But in the NBA, athletic ability matters it is not the end all.   I always hear Bird could not jump or run but he was a much better athlete than any of these three before he hurt his achilles.   He also had superior skills and superior anticipation and basketball IQ.   I can see flashes of this IQ in KO.   Sully has his derriere which he uses to carve out space and has real good hands.   Zeller can run and at this point, I think he has the most potential of the three, as he is the best athlete and knows his limitations and plays within them.

Those aren't stats, those are physical measurements that may or may not correlate to one's ability to play basketball. The stats suggest that such physical disadvantages have not hindered Sullinger's ability to play at least average individual and team defense.

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

Try four. And if we're only talking about defense then you can say he's been our most consistent player. Consistently bad.

[Rondo9]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

Try four. And if we're only talking about defense then you can say he's been our most consistent player. Consistently bad.

Stats say he's been pretty good this year.

[TheFlex]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

Try four. And if we're only talking about defense then you can say he's been our most consistent player. Consistently bad.

Any proof?

[Jonny CC]

I realize the Celtics have talent issues but how can the Celtics lose to Charlotte and the Knicks which are terrible teams?   The C's also have a problem holding leads - they have lost a lot of games after leading going into the 4th quarter.  I'm beginning to wonder if the Celtics have made a mistake in hiring Brad - he can't seem to motivate the team to perform at a consistent level (except to exhibit consistent poor play...can't play defense at all).

MikeB

Do you think that the Celtics AREN'T a terrible team?!  At least the Knicks and Charlotte have some all stars on the roster.  Stevens is doing a good job with what he has (and what he hasn't...a starting PG who can score and defend, a rim protector, etc).  Jeff Green may be their best player.  Think about that...Jeff F'N Green!!!!!!!  Seriously...you expect the C's to have a better record with the roster they have now?  They have lost some big leads but Stevens deserves a medal for getting a lead with a team full of bench players.

[Monkhouse]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

Try four. And if we're only talking about defense then you can say he's been our most consistent player. Consistently bad.

Any proof?

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

Look at what Kennedy Meeks did in a year and a half.



If that guy can transform his body like that and get ripped, why can't Sully?

I'm not suggesting he can't but that he hasn't. The guy can be an all star if he just got himself into better shape.

Wait a minute! Sullinger improved his play this year and is arguably the Celtics most consistent (I know he had two awful games.) player and people are STILL saying that he's lazy?! Now that is fusturating.

Try four. And if we're only talking about defense then you can say he's been our most consistent player. Consistently bad.

Those threes are nice but I can't look pass his bad defense. He's gotta be the worst defender on the team.

Ummm, and where are the stats to back up this outrageous claim. 

The Celtics allow 108.3 points per 100 possessions when Turner's on the floor. No player has a worse impact. When Turner sits, that number drops down to 101. This is the difference between the eighth- and 26th-ranked unit in the league. He easily gets lost.

Turner has played out of position for large parts of the season and had to guard point guards. This is why NBA stat geeks who over use stats gets annoying.

[BitterJim]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

I'm trying to find where I said that, but all I see is a straw man

[KeepRondo]

FlexMonk9,

If you guys think Sully plays good defense then you must be his mommy. Since there are three of you, then the other two of you are just bad judges of talent.

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

I'm trying to find where I said that, but all I see is a straw man

He's still in bad shape so what's your point? That he's slightly in better shape but still in bad shape?