Is it time to consider whether the Celtics made a mistake with Brad Stevens>

[BitterJim]

Try 82games or other advanced stats websites and you will not find statistical proof to back up your claims. Sully is far from an exemplary defender but there is also a buffer between him and Olynyk's level of putridity as well. When put next to a legitimate rim protector, Sully could at least contain his man one-on-one. Not so sure the same can be said of Olynyk.

They both are bad, get some glasses, it might help, and watch some games and watch how poorly he rotates.  They do not have stats for slow feet, bad rotation, laziness or out of shape but if they did Sully would be on the top.

But you want stats here are some, from his athletic tests.

game has had more to do with his lack of elite physical tools than with his on-court performance, though. He posted the sixth-worst max. vertical of the 2012 NBA Draft Combine and finished last in both the lane agility drill and the ¾-court sprint.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/jared-sullinger-closer-look


Lane Agility 
12.77 Sullinger
11.3   Zeller
10.42 Olynyk - Surprising result.

3/4 Court Sprint
3.81 Sullinger
3.4 Zeller
3.59 Olynyk

Standing Vertical
29.5" Sullinger
30" Zeller
24.5" Olynyk

Max Vertical
30" Sullinger
34" Zeller
29.5"  Olynyk

Bench Press 185 lbs.
9  Sullinger
16 Zeller
5 Olynyk

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-results

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba-draft-combine-athleticism-test-analysis

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/5/19/4343934/nba-draft-2013-official-combine-measurements-results-comparisons-bigs

Strength can be gained easily so bench press is the least valuable stat.  It will go up with NBA training.   All three of these guys have decent frame, none of them have real beastly shoulders to stack mass upon.

Sully is slow.   KO is playing with the bench a lot so all those fancy stats do not reflect that.   My guess is Stevens would rather finish with a guy that can run up and down the court.  Sully can jump higher.

These guys all have some skills but Zeller is average athletically but a decent runner.   Sully is weak, subpar strength and slow.   KO is weak and can't jump.

Speed and Jumping are two of the hardest things to gain athletically.   Strength is easy.  My son went from benching 85 to 185 in less than a year he is a teen.

They have skills in shooting somewhat.  Passing most definitely.   One is an average NBA defender and the other two are weak.   I think their improvement in these areas will be finite given their limited tools, that being said, these results would blow away 99% of guys off the street.  But in the NBA, athletic ability matters it is not the end all.   I always hear Bird could not jump or run but he was a much better athlete than any of these three before he hurt his achilles.   He also had superior skills and superior anticipation and basketball IQ.   I can see flashes of this IQ in KO.   Sully has his derriere which he uses to carve out space and has real good hands.   Zeller can run and at this point, I think he has the most potential of the three, as he is the best athlete and knows his limitations and plays within them.

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

[Rondo9]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

[Rondo9]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.
[/quote

Sullinger is having a good year so far

[Eja117]

You have to give him time to have Danny give him three Hall of Famers and see if he can get one whole ring out of it.

[hwangjini_1]

a varied range of posters would have some variation of the celtics to impeach wyc, fire ainge, fire stevens, trade rondo, sully, olly, smart, green, wallace, turner, bradley, and dump everyone else.

who the heck is left?

geez guys, dont we at least need someone on the celtics so that we can watch games?

how many "fire/dump X" threads do we get each month?

[Beat LA]

a varied range of posters would have some variation of the celtics to impeach wyc, fire ainge, fire stevens, trade rondo, sully, olly, smart, green, wallace, turner, bradley, and dump everyone else.

who the heck is left?

geez guys, dont we at least need someone on the celtics so that we can watch games?

how many "fire/dump X" threads do we get each month?

Try week, lol .  I'll say this for Stevens, though - I don't think he has a rotation, which is fine if the guys he keeps subbing in do a good job consistently, but aside from Bass, and mostly Turner, everyone else is all over the place, and that's probably due to playing time more than anything else.  For instance, Sullinger has been just turrible for the past few games, and in the spirit of Stevens' random substitution pattern, why don't we just start Powell?  Seriously.  Sure, he'll problem pick up 3 fouls in 5 minutes, but at least give him a shot, lol.  It's not like we're going anywhere this year anyway.

[MBunge]

I'd agree with others that it's too early to condemn Stevens.  I do think his grace period is running out with these players.  If this team wins 25 games again this season, there is no way these players are going to keep listening to him.

Mike

I don't think that's always the case.  Brooks lead the Thunder to a few 60 loss seasons

Brooks was 22-47 his first year with OKC and had winning records every year after that until this season.  And Brooks had 9 years or so in the league as a player to back him up.

Stevens didn't get that huge contract so he can win with talent like 90% of coaches.  He was brought in to be one of the 10%.

Mike

[BitterJim]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

[Evantime34]

If Stevens fails when he has enough talent to be field a playoff team then it will be time to move on. With the talent we currently have you can't expect miracles.

[chambers]

Without Stevens we'd be 4 wins at the most.
Our individual talent levels are very ordinary.

Charlotte and New York have more talent than us.
Kidd Gilchrist came back for the game vs us and was a huge factor. They'd had both Gilchrist and Gary Neal injured for quite some time and they are two key players for them in the rotation.
Carmelo played like a top 15 NBA player, Amare was able to go to work in the paint and Jason Smith was hugely important- they hit jump shots and we let them score in the paint.

If you think we are a better team than the Hornets then I want what you're smoking- they have far more talent than us.
The Knicks are a closer call, but with Carmelo shooting 45%+ and their role players all doing their job there's just not much we can be expected to do for 48 minutes. They are starting to get a hang of the triangle and guys like Carmelo, Larkin, Calderon and Hardaway thrive in a system like that.

[Rondo9]

Charlotte and New York have more talent than us.
Kidd Gilchrist came back for the game vs us and was a huge factor. They'd had both Gilchrist and Gary Neal injured for quite some time and they are two key players for them in the rotation.
Carmelo played like a top 15 NBA player, Amare was able to go to work in the paint and Jason Smith was hugely important- they hit jump shots and we let them score in the paint.

If you think we are a better team than the Hornets then I want what you're smoking- they have far more talent than us.
The Knicks are a closer call, but with Carmelo shooting 45%+ and their role players all doing their job there's just not much we can be expected to do for 48 minutes. They are starting to get a hang of the triangle and guys like Carmelo, Larkin, Calderon and Hardaway thrive in a system like that.

They may have more talent, but that doesn't mean it was meshing. Look at Detroit, I felt they had more talent than the Celtics and other teams, but they flat out stink.

[KeepRondo]

Combine stats are great, but I'm sure that they're all in better shape/more athletic by now (not to mention the fact that Sully had his back issue during the combine)

Sully is in better shape?

Yes.

I sure hope this is not the in shape version of Sully we've been watching. If it is, there is no excuse for his poor defense and lack of effort.

Oddly enough, "in better shape" and "in the best possible shape" (or, even, "in good shape") are not the same thing

You may not think he's in good shape, but look at him when he came out of college and try to make the argument that he's in worse shape now

Also, he's arguably been our best player this season (not an argument I'd agree with, but one that could be made), so it's not as if the shape you think he's in is holding him back

So you want to give Sully credit for being out of shape but not as out of shape as 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it only takes 4-5 months and not this 4 year plan of slow progression to get into shape.

[Chris22]

Stevens is doing what he has to do....develop young talent and get us in the lottery.

Rondo is helping by shooting 39% from the field and 32% from the line.

There are a lot of good centers in this years lottery.