Simmons and Lowe talk Rondo on the BS Report pod - Knicks are their best guess

[D.o.s.]

For people who consider it important that their franchise player be able to put points on the board independent of their teammates, I think being concerned about Rondo's jump shot is reasonable.

  It looks like you went from questioning why people are so concerned about Rondo's mid-range game to knowing exactly why they're discussing it simply because I agreed with your original thought. Were you temporarily blinded when the light suddenly went on in your head? Did you suffer any whiplash from the experience?

It's amazing what a good night's sleep and a strong cup of coffee between posts can do.

I didn't realize people where arguing about Rondo's mid range jumper as a sign of whether or not he's a franchise player until you posted about it -- and then, yeah, the light clicked on and it made perfect sense, since the Jordan-contested-two is about as 'franchise player' as you can get in the highlight reel.

So you pictured in your mind Jordan hitting a mid-range jumper and then you thought that is what a franchise player should be? Or is the statement just tongue in cheek?

I think that when most people think of the phrase "franchise players," the usual "mind's eye" approximation is to think about guys like Kobe, Melo, Durant, Jordan etc. taking someone off the dribble and hitting a contested long two/three with the game on the line. Remember when LeBron got all that shade thrown at him for passing the last shot to Deron Wiliams in the all-star game a few years ago? It's because he wasn't acting like 'a franchise player', even if no one actually came out and used that exact phrasing.

[Moranis]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

[moiso]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

Wallace for Stoudamire is good for the C's.  But I don't see who the main catch is for the Celtics in this one.  Maybe you are a lot higher on Hardaway than I am, but to me it just looks like we are getting a group of mediocre odds and ends.  And we are giving up an excellent player in Rondo.  I'm not against trading him if we get something very good in return.  I just don't see anything better than an Avery Bradley/Courtney Lee level player coming back in that group of Knicks.

[Celtics4ever]

I think Hardaway is the real deal.

http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?PlayerID=203501

He is streaky but shooting .36% as a rookie from downtown and 10 PPG from a rookie is not bad.

Trouble is we have a zillion SGs.

[Moranis]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

Wallace for Stoudamire is good for the C's.  But I don't see who the main catch is for the Celtics in this one.  Maybe you are a lot higher on Hardaway than I am, but to me it just looks like we are getting a group of mediocre odds and ends.  And we are giving up an excellent player in Rondo.  I'm not against trading him if we get something very good in return.  I just don't see anything better than an Avery Bradley/Courtney Lee level player coming back in that group of Knicks.

I do like Hardaway and I think Early could be good. Shumpert has solid value around the league as a tough nosed defender.  Not really sure on Larkin as I don't think he has ever been in the right situation.  Essentially you get rid of Wallace and get 3 recent 1st round picks (and a high second in the most recent draft) for Rondo (and Bass).  It certainly isn't 100 cents on the dollar, but I don't think it is 50 cents on the dollar either (especially given Rondo is expiring and Boston isn't going to be very good hurting their chances of re-signing him). 

[fantankerous]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

I'd rather let Rondo walk at years end rather than taking this crap trade.

[Eddie20]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

I'd rather let Rondo walk at years end rather than taking this crap trade.

That's a pretty good deal. Dumping Wallace's deal would cost us a 1st rd pick. Hardaway, Early, Larkin, and Shump are on their rookie contracts and are definite assets. Amare has a huge expiring deal, which allows us to dump both Bass and Wallace.

I would actually prefer to get pick, even if the earliest is in 2018, then I would Shump, who I think is too redundant to Bradley.

[Gahdening]

I do think a trade with the Knicks will be a very real possibility at the deadline.  Simmons is pretty crazy if he thinks it will lead to multiple first round picks though.  I think this is a trade that might be on the table for Boston, that Ainge might actually consider

Stoudemire, Hardaway, Early, Larkin, Shumpert

for

Rondo, Bass, Wallace

Other players can be included as well, but I think that trade might be the type of trade that both teams do at the trade deadline.


I also think Josh Smith to NY in that situation makes some sense as well.

Sorry. Ignore.

[Gahdening]

NYK wants the cap space for Summer 15 so Wallace would need to be re-routed. PHI has all that cap space but did not want Stoudemire's deal. Let NY pay for Wallace to be parked in PHI and they might do this deal.
It's  a pu-pu platter in return to say the least but more assets to combine and flip in the future.

[Greenbean]

For people who consider it important that their franchise player be able to put points on the board independent of their teammates, I think being concerned about Rondo's jump shot is reasonable.

  It looks like you went from questioning why people are so concerned about Rondo's mid-range game to knowing exactly why they're discussing it simply because I agreed with your original thought. Were you temporarily blinded when the light suddenly went on in your head? Did you suffer any whiplash from the experience?

It's amazing what a good night's sleep and a strong cup of coffee between posts can do.

I didn't realize people where arguing about Rondo's mid range jumper as a sign of whether or not he's a franchise player until you posted about it -- and then, yeah, the light clicked on and it made perfect sense, since the Jordan-contested-two is about as 'franchise player' as you can get in the highlight reel.

So you pictured in your mind Jordan hitting a mid-range jumper and then you thought that is what a franchise player should be? Or is the statement just tongue in cheek?

I think that when most people think of the phrase "franchise players," the usual "mind's eye" approximation is to think about guys like Kobe, Melo, Durant, Jordan etc. taking someone off the dribble and hitting a contested long two/three with the game on the line. Remember when LeBron got all that shade thrown at him for passing the last shot to Deron Wiliams in the all-star game a few years ago? It's because he wasn't acting like 'a franchise player', even if no one actually came out and used that exact phrasing.

I like that! A simple  eye test...I will use this.

[Csfan1984]

For people who consider it important that their franchise player be able to put points on the board independent of their teammates, I think being concerned about Rondo's jump shot is reasonable.

  It looks like you went from questioning why people are so concerned about Rondo's mid-range game to knowing exactly why they're discussing it simply because I agreed with your original thought. Were you temporarily blinded when the light suddenly went on in your head? Did you suffer any whiplash from the experience?

It's amazing what a good night's sleep and a strong cup of coffee between posts can do.

I didn't realize people where arguing about Rondo's mid range jumper as a sign of whether or not he's a franchise player until you posted about it -- and then, yeah, the light clicked on and it made perfect sense, since the Jordan-contested-two is about as 'franchise player' as you can get in the highlight reel.

So you pictured in your mind Jordan hitting a mid-range jumper and then you thought that is what a franchise player should be? Or is the statement just tongue in cheek?

I think that when most people think of the phrase "franchise players," the usual "mind's eye" approximation is to think about guys like Kobe, Melo, Durant, Jordan etc. taking someone off the dribble and hitting a contested long two/three with the game on the line. Remember when LeBron got all that shade thrown at him for passing the last shot to Deron Wiliams in the all-star game a few years ago? It's because he wasn't acting like 'a franchise player', even if no one actually came out and used that exact phrasing.

I think that could be possible. But man are big men going to be mad with people who think like that.


My opinion on what a franchise player is. A franchise player leads a team on the court with close to 25% of league team average point production. So average team scores 100 a night a franchise players averages 25 points or 20 points and 5 or more assist or can negate opposing offenses say at 20 points 3 assist 3 blocks. Also on most nights a franchise player can not be stopped from their high output. They should also be "clutch" or at least not effected by pressure situations.

[BballTim]

For people who consider it important that their franchise player be able to put points on the board independent of their teammates, I think being concerned about Rondo's jump shot is reasonable.

  It looks like you went from questioning why people are so concerned about Rondo's mid-range game to knowing exactly why they're discussing it simply because I agreed with your original thought. Were you temporarily blinded when the light suddenly went on in your head? Did you suffer any whiplash from the experience?

It's amazing what a good night's sleep and a strong cup of coffee between posts can do.

I didn't realize people where arguing about Rondo's mid range jumper as a sign of whether or not he's a franchise player until you posted about it -- and then, yeah, the light clicked on and it made perfect sense, since the Jordan-contested-two is about as 'franchise player' as you can get in the highlight reel.

So you pictured in your mind Jordan hitting a mid-range jumper and then you thought that is what a franchise player should be? Or is the statement just tongue in cheek?

I think that when most people think of the phrase "franchise players," the usual "mind's eye" approximation is to think about guys like Kobe, Melo, Durant, Jordan etc. taking someone off the dribble and hitting a contested long two/three with the game on the line. Remember when LeBron got all that shade thrown at him for passing the last shot to Deron Wiliams in the all-star game a few years ago? It's because he wasn't acting like 'a franchise player', even if no one actually came out and used that exact phrasing.

I think that could be possible. But man are big men going to be mad with people who think like that.


My opinion on what a franchise player is. A franchise player leads a team on the court with close to 25% of league team average point production. So average team scores 100 a night a franchise players averages 25 points or 20 points and 5 or more assist or can negate opposing offenses say at 20 points 3 assist 3 blocks. Also on most nights a franchise player can not be stopped from their high output. They should also be "clutch" or at least not effected by pressure situations.

  Without giving this much thought, the list of people that don't fit your definition of what a franchise player is will start with Bill Russell.

[the_gunner]

First of all we must get 100% confirmation that Rondo will not resign with us. If he's not going to resign for us, then we should try to get as much value for him now, as he would then be a problem as Rondo playing this season would limit the playingtime of Smart.

I really like the idea of dumping Wallace in combination with Rondo, an I would love to dumb Anthony and Bass too, not that I don't like Bass, but he's going to take playingtime from Kelly and Sully.

So if Rondo is definitely going to leave, then I would love to trade with the Knicks but we should go all in and make this deal: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ltgm6mm

We would then test Bagnani for a season and see if he might be what we are looking for at C, and if not we would just dumb him when his contract expires next season. Knicks might want to bring in a 3rd team, but that's not our problem.

[Celtics18]

First of all we must get 100% confirmation that Rondo will not resign with us. If he's not going to resign for us, then we should try to get as much value for him now, as he would then be a problem as Rondo playing this season would limit the playingtime of Smart.

I really like the idea of dumping Wallace in combination with Rondo, an I would love to dumb Anthony and Bass too, not that I don't like Bass, but he's going to take playingtime from Kelly and Sully.

So if Rondo is definitely going to leave, then I would love to trade with the Knicks but we should go all in and make this deal: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ltgm6mm

We would then test Bagnani for a season and see if he might be what we are looking for at C, and if not we would just dumb him when his contract expires next season. Knicks might want to bring in a 3rd team, but that's not our problem.

The problem with your idea--and one of the reasons this stirs up so much debate--is that it's highly unlikely that Rajon Rondo will give anybody anywhere near 100% confirmation about where he is going to sign when he hits free agency. 

Either keeping him or trading will contain some level of risk.  For those who want straightforward answers, you are likely to be disappointed. 

[Csfan1984]

For people who consider it important that their franchise player be able to put points on the board independent of their teammates, I think being concerned about Rondo's jump shot is reasonable.

  It looks like you went from questioning why people are so concerned about Rondo's mid-range game to knowing exactly why they're discussing it simply because I agreed with your original thought. Were you temporarily blinded when the light suddenly went on in your head? Did you suffer any whiplash from the experience?

It's amazing what a good night's sleep and a strong cup of coffee between posts can do.

I didn't realize people where arguing about Rondo's mid range jumper as a sign of whether or not he's a franchise player until you posted about it -- and then, yeah, the light clicked on and it made perfect sense, since the Jordan-contested-two is about as 'franchise player' as you can get in the highlight reel.

So you pictured in your mind Jordan hitting a mid-range jumper and then you thought that is what a franchise player should be? Or is the statement just tongue in cheek?

I think that when most people think of the phrase "franchise players," the usual "mind's eye" approximation is to think about guys like Kobe, Melo, Durant, Jordan etc. taking someone off the dribble and hitting a contested long two/three with the game on the line. Remember when LeBron got all that shade thrown at him for passing the last shot to Deron Wiliams in the all-star game a few years ago? It's because he wasn't acting like 'a franchise player', even if no one actually came out and used that exact phrasing.

I think that could be possible. But man are big men going to be mad with people who think like that.


My opinion on what a franchise player is. A franchise player leads a team on the court with close to 25% of league team average point production. So average team scores 100 a night a franchise players averages 25 points or 20 points and 5 or more assist or can negate opposing offenses say at 20 points 3 assist 3 blocks. Also on most nights a franchise player can not be stopped from their high output. They should also be "clutch" or at least not effected by pressure situations.

  Without giving this much thought, the list of people that don't fit your definition of what a franchise player is will start with Bill Russell.

Not correct they didn't track blocks in Russell era, also assist were also tracked differently.  That along with his ridiculous rebound out put which for a Center after 1/8 of league team total average I also see as negating/adding offense. I don't know what the average was for teams back then but that is the formula I use.

That Rebound formula in use today would mean a center today gaining above 8 rebounds is adding extra to the offense with each rebound. 8 he is doing his expected job. Below and he is just not meeting production per 38 min at center.

Example: today 17/13/2/3 one turn over and two non strategy shooting fouls, would be a franchise caliber player for me. Hope that helps and maybe gets people thinking about game impact and value of players. We should do a separate thread on it for everyone's opinions and formulas used if any.