Simmons and Lowe talk Rondo on the BS Report pod - Knicks are their best guess

[Eddie20]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

  Based on your response I'd guess you didn't really understand what I was saying but had some good insults in your head that you didn't want to waste. However, just because things have been pointed out ad nauseum (because they're painfully obvious) doesn't mean they're weaknesses in his game, or even that they're accurate observations. For instance, you're able to notice that Rondo controls the ball a lot. Why is that a weakness? Is it a weakness for everyone who controls the ball for a decent amount of time? If not, why not?

Rondo has to be ball dominant to be effective. He's a player that struggles and is a liability playing off the ball because of his poor shooting. His lack of shooting hurts our spacing and limits what we can do offensively. So subsequently he needs to have the ball to excel. Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

  Good answer, although it's not really related to the question. I asked why Rondo controlling the ball was a weakness in his game and you responded with an explanation of why you think Rondo not controlling the ball is a weakness. In fact you talked about Rondo being effective and excelling when he controls the ball. Try again.

Notice that I didn't even mention his horrendous free throw shooing as one of his weaknesses since that you won't bother defending.

  You're right on the edge of grasping reality there. It's true that I don't defend Rondo's free throw shooting, because that's something that actually happens and it's something that's actually a weakness in his game. I don't argue against those, which you seem to vaguely understand. That's why I didn't ask you to explain why his shooting is a weakness. It's also why  you chose to answer that instead of what I asked you.

You failed to answer mine though. Name a player that dominates the ball as much as Rondo and who is a worse shooter?

Rondo has his skills to which I won't argue (ballhandling, rebounding, passing, etc.), but to lend a blind eye to his glaring weaknesses would be foolish. Again, it's those weaknesses that greatly limits him offensively.

[Eddie20]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

According to BasketballReference, those guys all have worse career shooting percentages on mid range jumpers, from 16 to 23 feet than Rondo.

I know, "Wow," right?

If you really think that Rondo is a better mid-range shooter than Parker, Wade, and Westbrook then you really don't watch much basketball. Wall is a poor shooter as well, but I still give him the edge over Rondo.

[More Banners]

Let's not make the Antione Walker mistake again:  trading a player just to get something back

I for one liked trading Walker, getting rid of him improved the team culture and allowed PP to blossom.  Walker, was inefficient and maddening at times.

I, for one, hate the Antoine deal. He was the undisputed leader of those semi-successful Cs teams and was my favorite player. I see a lot Antoine in Marcus Smart and I am excited to see this kid blossom into a leader.

But, if we are talking about Antoine actually having to be traded, I can't think of a worse deal than a guy no more than starter potential on a five year, near max deal just coming off of major surgery. In this circumstance, even though Antoine was an all-star in his prime, Danny was better off just letting him expire rather than going through with this paltry deal.

THe thing about a star nearing the end of their deal walking is that a team over the cap and/or with few/no other assets really can't take the blow, but a team that has something going for it with lots of cap room (and picks) can come out better with the cap room.  THey can, could, might, whatever, depending on the cap space.

Miami lost Lebron (like Cleveland did), and was still over the cap, so they're worse off because they can't replace him under the CBA.

[Celtics18]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

According to BasketballReference, those guys all have worse career shooting percentages on mid range jumpers, from 16 to 23 feet than Rondo.

I know, "Wow," right?

If you really think that Rondo is a better mid-range shooter than Parker, Wade, and Westbrook then you really don't watch much basketball. Wall is a poor shooter as well, but I still give him the edge over Rondo.

Believe it or not, I watch a lot of basketball.  Is that really your best argument? 

Your confirmation bias is getting the better of you on this one. 

[Eddie20]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

According to BasketballReference, those guys all have worse career shooting percentages on mid range jumpers, from 16 to 23 feet than Rondo.

I know, "Wow," right?

If you really think that Rondo is a better mid-range shooter than Parker, Wade, and Westbrook then you really don't watch much basketball. Wall is a poor shooter as well, but I still give him the edge over Rondo.

Believe it or not, I watch a lot of basketball.  Is that really your best argument? 

Your confirmation bias is getting the better of you on this one.

I would say common sense is getting the best of me.

[Celtics18]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

According to BasketballReference, those guys all have worse career shooting percentages on mid range jumpers, from 16 to 23 feet than Rondo.

I know, "Wow," right?

If you really think that Rondo is a better mid-range shooter than Parker, Wade, and Westbrook then you really don't watch much basketball. Wall is a poor shooter as well, but I still give him the edge over Rondo.

Believe it or not, I watch a lot of basketball.  Is that really your best argument? 

Your confirmation bias is getting the better of you on this one.

I would say common sense is getting the best of me.

But, you're wrong.  The numbers show that.  If you can't come up with something better than your own "common sense" or what you've seen, then discussing this with you is pointless.

[indeedproceed]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

[BballTim]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

  Based on your response I'd guess you didn't really understand what I was saying but had some good insults in your head that you didn't want to waste. However, just because things have been pointed out ad nauseum (because they're painfully obvious) doesn't mean they're weaknesses in his game, or even that they're accurate observations. For instance, you're able to notice that Rondo controls the ball a lot. Why is that a weakness? Is it a weakness for everyone who controls the ball for a decent amount of time? If not, why not?

Rondo has to be ball dominant to be effective. He's a player that struggles and is a liability playing off the ball because of his poor shooting. His lack of shooting hurts our spacing and limits what we can do offensively. So subsequently he needs to have the ball to excel. Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

  Good answer, although it's not really related to the question. I asked why Rondo controlling the ball was a weakness in his game and you responded with an explanation of why you think Rondo not controlling the ball is a weakness. In fact you talked about Rondo being effective and excelling when he controls the ball. Try again.

Notice that I didn't even mention his horrendous free throw shooing as one of his weaknesses since that you won't bother defending.

  You're right on the edge of grasping reality there. It's true that I don't defend Rondo's free throw shooting, because that's something that actually happens and it's something that's actually a weakness in his game. I don't argue against those, which you seem to vaguely understand. That's why I didn't ask you to explain why his shooting is a weakness. It's also why  you chose to answer that instead of what I asked you.

You failed to answer mine though. Name a player that dominates the ball as much as Rondo and who is a worse shooter?

  I'd start my list with Rubio.

Rondo has his skills to which I won't argue (ballhandling, rebounding, passing, etc.), but to lend a blind eye to his glaring weaknesses would be foolish. Again, it's those weaknesses that greatly limits him offensively.

  Nobody's turning a blind eye to Rondo's weaknesses. But those weaknesses don't greatly limit him offensively. They don't stop him from doing what he does best. They don't stop him from getting assists. They don't stop him from getting into the lane or getting to the rim. It's true he could be a better scorer if he shot better but it's not clear that he'd be a more effective player if he shot more and passed less.

[Celtics18]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

Who said he was as good a scorer?  I was very specifically talking about his mid range jump shot. 

[BballTim]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

  Nobody seems to be making that claim.

[indeedproceed]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

  Nobody seems to be making that claim.

That's true. But as I said earlier in the thread, saying Rondo is a better shooter, and then using fg% from any particular range, often fails to factor in volume. And that's a myopic argument, and flawed.

[BballTim]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

  Nobody seems to be making that claim.

That's true. But as I said earlier in the thread, saying Rondo is a better shooter, and then using fg% from any particular range, often fails to factor in volume. And that's a myopic argument, and flawed.

  I think that you're overstating the difference in volume from that distance between the players. The amount of jumpers Rondo takes from that particular range is probably average or so for a typical pg.

[indeedproceed]

Is it? I can't look on my phone. How does it compare to the players listed?

[Celtics18]

I do think that if there is a blind side in the Rondo debates on here, his midrange shot is no longer something that can be ignored. He just hasn't worked that into his game as consistently as many, probably including himself, would want.

But the notion that he's as good of a scorer as Parker, Wall, many of the other names listed is laughable.

  Nobody seems to be making that claim.

That's true. But as I said earlier in the thread, saying Rondo is a better shooter, and then using fg% from any particular range, often fails to factor in volume. And that's a myopic argument, and flawed.

BasketballReference also includes stats on the percentage of overall field goal attempts that each player has taken from a given range. 

Those numbers show that Rondo is an above average mid-range shooter for his position.  They also show that 21% of his field goal attempts for his career have been from that range.  That's not particularly low compared to other point guards.

It is often pointed out that Rondo is flawed as a perimeter shooter.  I don't disagree with that statement.  I think, however, that folks often fail to take that reality into context.  The truth is that outside of Chris Paul, Steph Curry, and (the one-foot-out-the-door) Steve Nash, there really aren't a lot of point guards around the league who have been consistent knock-down perimeter shooters for their careers. 

Take Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, John Wall, Tony Parker, Ty Lawson, Deron Williams . . . I agree that those guys are all more aggressive scorers than Rondo, thereby making them better scorers, but I don't consider any of those guys great perimeter shooters.

Rondo is certainly not a great shooter, but when you look at his shooting in context, by comparing it to other players at his position, it is nowhere near as woeful as many make it out to be.

Obviously, the one place that his shooting really is a problem is from the free throw line.  Personally, I think he's got a mental hurdle to overcome there.  There's no reason he should be below 70% from the stripe for his career.  His shooting stroke, while not flawless, is too good for those numbers. 

[Celtics18]

Is it? I can't look on my phone. How does it compare to the players listed?

Here are the numbers for the players I listed:

Rajon Rondo:

Career percentage from 16-23:  .416

Career percentage of FGAs from 16-23:  .211

John Wall:

Career percentage from 16-23:  .343

Career percentage of FGAs from 16-23:  .300

Russell Westbrook:

Career percentage from 16-23:  .397

Career percentage of FGAs from 16-23: .202

Dwayne Wade:

Career percentage from 16-23:  .390

Career percentage of FGAs from 16-23:  .260

Tony Parker:

Career percentage from 16-23:  .408

Career percentage of FGAs from 16-23: .270

One of the things that jumps out at me from those numbers is the incredibly poor shot selection from John Wall, in particular.  Why in the world is he taking 30% of all his shots from that mid range area when he's only making a woeful 34% of them. 

There's a fine line between not being aggressive enough in looking for your own shot and taking bad shots. 

I was also somewhat surprised that Russell Westbrook takes the lowest amount of mid range jumpers per shot attempt of anyone on that list.  It's always seemed to me that he is constantly tossing up bricks from that range.