Simmons and Lowe talk Rondo on the BS Report pod - Knicks are their best guess

[D.o.s.]

You think trading 'Toine was a mistake?

The follow up question has to be "which time?"

[Celtics4ever]

Let's not make the Antione Walker mistake again:  trading a player just to get something back

I for one liked trading Walker, getting rid of him improved the team culture and allowed PP to blossom.  Walker, was inefficient and maddening at times.

[More Banners]

Let's not make the Antione Walker mistake again:  trading a player just to get something back

I for one liked trading Walker, getting rid of him improved the team culture and allowed PP to blossom.  Walker, was inefficient and maddening at times.

just offering the idea that cap space isn't "nothing" in this league.

Letting Toine expire, then walk or S&T, was an option also, and in hindsight might have been better. At the time, we needed "more pieces" as DA said then to get things happening.  He made a lot of moves just to add more pieces.  We don't need more pieces now, we just need better ones.

Rondo's bird rights are not nothing ( I hope ) and expiring doesn't mean he won't come back.

Rondo+Bass+Green will all likely expire next summer.  IF they stick around and help add value and develop the younger guys, let's just keep them around and let them do their jobs until they expire.  Their contracts, Imean.

[Vermont Green]

That would have to be a pretty bad trade if what we got back for Rondo put us in a worse position than just letting his contract expire and have him walk.  I know he is in the last year of his contract and I know he is coming back from injury but is his value really that low where we can't get anything of value for him?

If even just some of the pro-Rondo things that are posted about Rondo are true, he should be a valuable asset to someone.  We can build around Rondo; stars what to play with Rondo; Rondo makes useless bigs into lane filling dunk machines.  We have gone from that to "we are better off letting his contract expire?"

It seems the team is stuck in a kind of purgatory with Rondo right now.  We missed the window when maybe we could have traded him because of hope that we might get Love; maybe combined with being a little greedy with what we were asking for.  I guess if he comes out and plays well (which I think he will do), there will still be trades but I would suggest bracing for what is going to feel like getting 50 cents or less on the dollar.

As far as the value of cap space, maybe that is something for another thread but it sure feels like nothing to me.  When Wallace's contract expires?  Yeah, that will be great for the team but losing Rondo for nothing?  It just does not feel the same to me.

[Eddie20]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

It'll be 2015 soon and you're still using 2012 and older performances to cite his greatness. Hopefully for C's fans abroad he'll soon give you new material to employ.

[GetLucky]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

The Rondo hate list continues to grow:

Simmons
Lowe
Goodman
Jackie
Sheridan

I'm a Rondo proponent, but Lowe's claims do have some merit based on past precedence. Rondo often did pass up shots for more contested ones to future hall of famers Ray, PP, and KG, which made the seemingly worse shot a statistically better one. Credit Rondo for going with the numbers. Now, though, it seems Rondo is taking the "an OK shot for me is better than a good shot for Phil Pressey" approach, which he needs to do more often, with a tendency to revert back to passing up shots and (sometimes) ball pounding. While these claims may be outdated, they do have merit. Think about the time difference whenever you refute a Rondo hater with a 2012 reference (the last really fun Celtics' playoff run btw).

One thing I disagree with is that the past precedent of passing up 2 layups per game is a bad thing. Now, Rondo would take, and presumably make, those two layups and average 4 more ppg, putting him comfortable in the 17-18 ppg range, which is around Chris Paul's career average. If ROndo averaged 17ppg, 5-6rpg, and 9-11apg, who wouldn't give him the max? I think that claim of two passed up layups is more a positive than a negative (although not in Lowe's context).

[jambr380]

Let's not make the Antione Walker mistake again:  trading a player just to get something back

I for one liked trading Walker, getting rid of him improved the team culture and allowed PP to blossom.  Walker, was inefficient and maddening at times.

I, for one, hate the Antoine deal. He was the undisputed leader of those semi-successful Cs teams and was my favorite player. I see a lot Antoine in Marcus Smart and I am excited to see this kid blossom into a leader.

But, if we are talking about Antoine actually having to be traded, I can't think of a worse deal than a guy no more than starter potential on a five year, near max deal just coming off of major surgery. In this circumstance, even though Antoine was an all-star in his prime, Danny was better off just letting him expire rather than going through with this paltry deal.

[Fan from VT]

It's easy to talk about rondo's "valure" in the abstract, but to me falls apart quickly in the specifics.

- He's 28 with a major injury on his resume.

- He will be a free agent at the end of the year.

- He wants to play for a contender.

- So teams are unsure if they can resign him after just this season.

- The PG position is the deepest in the league with genuinely good, young talent, so the number of teams that want to sign a 29 year old PG to the max rather than gamble on getting 90% of that on a rookie contract are fewer and fewer.

-Teams that both want rondo and think he'll re-sign there are likely going to have straight up capspace, so why give up a lot for him?

- Someone mentioned Rondo+Bass being 19 million of expiring money...that's less and less valuable now that fewer players are overpayed and the deals are shorter and shorteer. So many teams have capspace each year, the idea of getting awesome value just for your expirings is a bit antiquated.


So a team that is going to give "Fair Value" for Rondo will have to be a team that at least thinks it has a chance to re-sign him (because they over-estimate their abilities to be a winner, because they call his bluff and think he'll take the bird rights max at the end of the day) AND has the "Fair Value" assets.

So really its
-Detroit (Monroe S+T, Pick or two) if they thinkg that a pure paint offense would be viable.
-Charlotte (Henderson, Vonleh, Zeller, Pick) if they really think they will take another step forward with Rondo and that he'll stay in Charlotte (I don't know)
-Sacramento (Williams, Maclemore or Stauskas, picks; can't see them giving up both SG's and that's abouta ll i like except cousins, so you're banking on picks) if they delusionally think they'll call rondo's bluff/overperform and convince him they're a winner.
-Phoenix (S+T for bledsoe, few other pieces) if they already decided they don't want to max out Dragic
-LA (Randle, Nash, Picks)
-Houston (Ariza, motiejunas, jones, pick)

Anything else, really? Most other teams are high on their own PG, and there's a lot of "ifs" up there. NY is bandied about, but who could they give that you would want? Bucks could offer a good combo packge, but are they really self-delusional or likely to be good or anthing?

[BballTim]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

  Based on your response I'd guess you didn't really understand what I was saying but had some good insults in your head that you didn't want to waste. However, just because things have been pointed out ad nauseum (because they're painfully obvious) doesn't mean they're weaknesses in his game, or even that they're accurate observations. For instance, you're able to notice that Rondo controls the ball a lot. Why is that a weakness? Is it a weakness for everyone who controls the ball for a decent amount of time? If not, why not?

[Eddie20]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

  Based on your response I'd guess you didn't really understand what I was saying but had some good insults in your head that you didn't want to waste. However, just because things have been pointed out ad nauseum (because they're painfully obvious) doesn't mean they're weaknesses in his game, or even that they're accurate observations. For instance, you're able to notice that Rondo controls the ball a lot. Why is that a weakness? Is it a weakness for everyone who controls the ball for a decent amount of time? If not, why not?

Rondo has to be ball dominant to be effective. He's a player that struggles and is a liability playing off the ball because of his poor shooting. His lack of shooting hurts our spacing and limits what we can do offensively. So subsequently he needs to have the ball to excel. Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

Notice that I didn't even mention his horrendous free throw shooing as one of his weaknesses since that you won't bother defending.

[Celtics18]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones. 

[indeedproceed]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones. 

Only if volume has no bearing. Is Arron Afflalo a better 3pt shooter than Steph Curry? Is Spencer Hawes a better 3pt shooter than Ryan Anderson? Is Hedo Turkoglu a better 3pt shooter than Kevin Love?

[BballTim]

Simmons and Lowe -- disrespectful wenches?

Absolutely. Can't believe they don't think more teams would be dying to trade for Rondo. That Lowe crack that he passes 2 layups a game or a teammate to take a contested 25 footer was shameful. Lowe repeatedly said "he can't shoot", doesn't he see his FG%? They don't understand Rondo and his utter brilliance.

  It's lucky for celticsblog that there are reporters making comments like that, it keeps traffic up. All of the Rondo critics who depend on having things like that to repeat in their posts would soon run out of material if they were left to their own devices.

Hold on, Tim. Rondo not being able to shoot and him passing up easy shots are weaknesses in his game, along with overdribbling and gambling too much on D, that have been pointed out ad nauseam because they are painfully obvious. You make it sound as though Lowe is grasping at straws here and his sudden Rondo revelation will cause you to defend the infallible one on things that aren't true and easily apparent to anyone who's residence isn't riddled with Rondo decor.

  Based on your response I'd guess you didn't really understand what I was saying but had some good insults in your head that you didn't want to waste. However, just because things have been pointed out ad nauseum (because they're painfully obvious) doesn't mean they're weaknesses in his game, or even that they're accurate observations. For instance, you're able to notice that Rondo controls the ball a lot. Why is that a weakness? Is it a weakness for everyone who controls the ball for a decent amount of time? If not, why not?

Rondo has to be ball dominant to be effective. He's a player that struggles and is a liability playing off the ball because of his poor shooting. His lack of shooting hurts our spacing and limits what we can do offensively. So subsequently he needs to have the ball to excel. Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

  Good answer, although it's not really related to the question. I asked why Rondo controlling the ball was a weakness in his game and you responded with an explanation of why you think Rondo not controlling the ball is a weakness. In fact you talked about Rondo being effective and excelling when he controls the ball. Try again.

Notice that I didn't even mention his horrendous free throw shooing as one of his weaknesses since that you won't bother defending.

  You're right on the edge of grasping reality there. It's true that I don't defend Rondo's free throw shooting, because that's something that actually happens and it's something that's actually a weakness in his game. I don't argue against those, which you seem to vaguely understand. That's why I didn't ask you to explain why his shooting is a weakness. It's also why  you chose to answer that instead of what I asked you.

[Eddie20]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

[Celtics18]

 Out of all the players around the league that have the ball in his hands as much as Rondo, I can't think of one who is a worse shooter. Can you?

John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker; just to name some of the more prominent ones.

Wow

According to BasketballReference, those guys all have worse career shooting percentages on mid range jumpers, from 16 to 23 feet than Rondo.

I know, "Wow," right?