Time for Ainge to make a deal for Melo

[LarBrd33]

Yes, they were kind of the same.  Well, except for Pierce being a better shooter, a better passer, and a better defender.

Through age 29

Paul Pierce:  37.8 minutes  23.6 points, 3.9 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Carmelo Anthony:  36.4 minutes - 25.1 points, 3.1 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.1 steal 46%/34%/81%

I mean we're basically talking about dopplegangers here.

Per 36 minutes:

Pierce - 22.5 points, 6.2 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Melo - 24.8 points, 6.4 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.1 steals, 45%/34%/81%


Playoff games:

Melo - 66
Pierce - 37

Win/Loss Record:

Melo - 428-294 = .592
Pierce - 321-385 = .454


Resume:

Pierce - 5x All-star, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 0x All-Defense
Melo - 6x All-star, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 4x All-NBA 3rd team, NCAA Champion, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, 0x All-Defense

Bad press:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbwm2tolAHo



I'd say it's a fair comparison.  All the "Melo is a cancer" stuff sounds ridiculous coming from Celtic fans.  They said all the same stuff about Pierce, but there was a valid argument that Pierce was a loser.  Melo has a track record of success.

Where is the statistic for personality? Paul was willing to take a back-seat, which is why he won a 'chip. Will Melo be?

Sure... if there is a player worth taking a back seat too.  Kevin Garnett was clearly a better player than Pierce.  You'd have to pair Melo with someone better than him... not a whole lot of players in this league qualify. 

Ya'll pointing out his unwillingness to take a back seat to Jeremy Lin as evidence he can't co-exist?  Lol.  Come on.

I'm not sold Melo would've taken a back seat to KG.

Why did you not include defensive comparisons? Statistics hard to come by, but it's a joke of a landslide. Not to mention Pierce was as clutch as any one in the NBA in his prime (and slightly beyond). Can't say that for Melo, can you? Maybe you'll dig up some stats...

Actually it's not hard.  Melo is widely regarded as one of the most clutch performers in the league.

For his career, Carmelo Anthony is a 41.8 percent shooter in clutch situations (+/- five points in the final five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime periods). Anything over 40 percent is generally considered pretty clutch. His second season in the NBA was his least-clutch season, when he made just 32.6 percent of shots in those situations. He had been over 40 percent every season since (including a ridiculous 2008-09 season, in which he shot 56.5 percent in the clutch) until his first full season with the Knicks.

And neither Pierce or Melo was ever regarded as an elite defender.  Boston's defense didn't arrive until KG arrived.

Just google "Carmelo Clutch" for further evidence.  He's statistically proven to be significantly more clutch than Pierce:

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Pierce appears to be a deadlier 3-point shooter.  But it's besides the point.  I stand by the idea that Melo can have as much an impact on a championship team as Pierce did in 2008.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Yes, they were kind of the same.  Well, except for Pierce being a better shooter, a better passer, and a better defender.

Through age 29

Paul Pierce:  37.8 minutes  23.6 points, 3.9 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Carmelo Anthony:  36.4 minutes - 25.1 points, 3.1 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.1 steal 46%/34%/81%

I mean we're basically talking about dopplegangers here.

Per 36 minutes:

Pierce - 22.5 points, 6.2 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Melo - 24.8 points, 6.4 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.1 steals, 45%/34%/81%


Playoff games:

Melo - 66
Pierce - 37

Win/Loss Record:

Melo - 428-294 = .592
Pierce - 321-385 = .454


Resume:

Pierce - 5x All-star, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 0x All-Defense
Melo - 6x All-star, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 4x All-NBA 3rd team, NCAA Champion, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, 0x All-Defense

Bad press:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbwm2tolAHo



I'd say it's a fair comparison.  All the "Melo is a cancer" stuff sounds ridiculous coming from Celtic fans.  They said all the same stuff about Pierce, but there was a valid argument that Pierce was a loser.  Melo has a track record of success.

Where is the statistic for personality? Paul was willing to take a back-seat, which is why he won a 'chip. Will Melo be?

Sure... if there is a player worth taking a back seat too.  Kevin Garnett was clearly a better player than Pierce.  You'd have to pair Melo with someone better than him... not a whole lot of players in this league qualify. 

Ya'll pointing out his unwillingness to take a back seat to Jeremy Lin as evidence he can't co-exist?  Lol.  Come on.

I'm not sold Melo would've taken a back seat to KG.

Why did you not include defensive comparisons? Statistics hard to come by, but it's a joke of a landslide. Not to mention Pierce was as clutch as any one in the NBA in his prime (and slightly beyond). Can't say that for Melo, can you? Maybe you'll dig up some stats...

Actually it's not hard.  Melo is widely regarded as one of the most clutch performers in the league.

For his career, Carmelo Anthony is a 41.8 percent shooter in clutch situations (+/- five points in the final five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime periods). Anything over 40 percent is generally considered pretty clutch. His second season in the NBA was his least-clutch season, when he made just 32.6 percent of shots in those situations. He had been over 40 percent every season since (including a ridiculous 2008-09 season, in which he shot 56.5 percent in the clutch) until his first full season with the Knicks.

And neither Pierce or Melo was ever regarded as an elite defender.  Boston's defense didn't arrive until KG arrived.

Just google "Carmelo Clutch" for further evidence.  He's statistically proven to be significantly more clutch than Pierce:

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Pierce appears to be a deadlier 3-point shooter.  But it's besides the point.  I stand by the idea that Melo can have as much an impact on a championship team as Pierce did in 2008.

I gave you a TP b/c I am a bit inebriated and recognize I'm being combative, lol.

But I still believe in my argument. When KG and Allen came over, Pierce smoothly transitioned into a new role. I can not see Melo, arguably the worst ball stopper in the league, doing the same.

You can't disregard Pierce's battles with Lebron, either. He met him every step, and my last recollection of their rivalry was Pierce drilling a deep 3 in Lebron's face. Maybe Melo does that.. maybe not. But Pierce found a role that equated to a 'chip, for less money, and I just don't see that happening with Melo.

[chambers]

Always makes me laugh seeing the 'Melo is a selfish chucker with no D'.

Name one player that Melo has had that comes close to KG and Rondo?
He had Amare for 4 months before he lost a leg.
He's had a 32 year old Billups as his best PG and the only decent pass first pg he's had other than Felton.

Give the guy a break, Amare going down crushed any chance of that Knicks plan working out.
Do people remember he carried that crap denver team to the WCF ?

What help has he had?

[LooseCannon]

Yes, they were kind of the same.  Well, except for Pierce being a better shooter, a better passer, and a better defender.

Through age 29

Paul Pierce:  37.8 minutes  23.6 points, 3.9 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Carmelo Anthony:  36.4 minutes - 25.1 points, 3.1 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.1 steal 46%/34%/81%

For those who like WS/48, Pierce has the advantage in that stat over the same period, .159 vs .136.  For those who like wins produced, I don't know what Pierce had through age 29, but going into the 2006-2007, he had a WP48 of .226.  I don't know what Carmelo Anthony's career numbers are, but Wages of Wins has consistently referred to Melo as having below-average Wins Produced, so his career WP48 is probably below .100.

Of course, if you wanted to ask Pierce what the difference is, well, he already answered that question.

[crimson_stallion]

hell no , not giving up our pick this year for melo, Marc Gasol yes, but Melo no.

+1

I wouldn't give it up for either - that pick has the potential to give us a player as good as Melo / Gasol for a fraction of the cost.

If I did do it I would take Melo over Gasol.  Melo is not my cup of tea, but he's a game changer who can turn a team like Boston into a contender overnight once combined  with Rondo 

Gasol I'm but sure would have as much impact.  He's has injury issues and I'd very good, but don't think he gives us enough shooting to make this team a contender.   

I'd take Melo + Amare hapilly if the pick is top 6 protected.  Amare's $22M expiring next season would translate into a Max contract.  combine that third max contract with Melo and Rondo and wehave a big time contender.

Imagine Rondo, Melo AND Gasol.  With Basket and a developed Olynyk as the other guys  .That would be something!

[chambers]

hell no , not giving up our pick this year for melo, Marc Gasol yes, but Melo no.

+1

I wouldn't give it up for either - that pick has the potential to give us a player as good as Melo / Gasol for a fraction of the cost.

If I did do it I would take Melo over Gasol.  Melo is not my cup of tea, but he's a game changer who can turn a team like Boston into a contender overnight once combined  with Rondo 

Gasol I'm but sure would have as much impact.  He's has injury issues and I'd very good, but don't think he gives us enough shooting to make this team a contender.   

I'd take Melo + Amare hapilly if the pick is top 6 protected.  Amare's $22M expiring next season would translate into a Max contract.  combine that third max contract with Melo and Rondo and wehave a big time contender.

Imagine Rondo, Melo AND Gasol.  With Basket and a developed Olynyk as the other guys  .That would be something!

The main object of acquiring Melo is putting a superstar scorer next to rondo.
The pick most likely won't be as good as Melo is (in an absolute best case) by the time Rondo is 30.
By getting Melo now weve got a top,3 NBA scorer next to Rondo while they're both still in their primes..assuming rondos knee hasn't cost him his 'prime' so to speak.

What amazes me about threads like is is how many people who refuse to trade Rondo also refuse to even consider how good Carmelo would fit next to Rondo.
What other options would you hope to have as far as two of the best at their position in the NBA? And for the rondo groupies, who else do you foresee as a potential elite scorer coming here via trade or free agency?

[chambers]

Yes, they were kind of the same.  Well, except for Pierce being a better shooter, a better passer, and a better defender.

Through age 29

Paul Pierce:  37.8 minutes  23.6 points, 3.9 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 44%/36%/79%

Carmelo Anthony:  36.4 minutes - 25.1 points, 3.1 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.1 steal 46%/34%/81%

For those who like WS/48, Pierce has the advantage in that stat over the same period, .159 vs .136.  For those who like wins produced, I don't know what Pierce had through age 29, but going into the 2006-2007, he had a WP48 of .226.  I don't know what Carmelo Anthony's career numbers are, but Wages of Wins has consistently referred to Melo as having below-average Wins Produced, so his career WP48 is probably below .100.

Of course, if you wanted to ask Pierce what the difference is, well, he already answered that question.

I think that Melo being in the Western Conference for the majority of his career (whilst the West was a stronger conference), and moving to the East when it took a step up in difficulty...(Celtics, Cavs w Lebron, end of Pistons era and then Miami and Indiana) will affect those win shares numbers.
Pierce in the East his whole career- particularly through that pathetic Net's reign buffs his numbers up nicely.

He's just never had a team built around him correctly. Even with Amare and Chandler in NY, giving Amare 30% of the cap was the wrong move if Melo was 'the man'.
Just give Melo Rondo, Jeff Green, Tyson Chandler and Lance Stephenson and watch them beat up on the East.

I really can't think of a more perfect player to pair with Rondo that we have the assets to potentially acquire in their cap cesspool.

[crimson_stallion]

I understand a lot of what people are saying here on both fronts.

On one hand yes, Melo is a bit of a black hole.  Yes, his defensive effort is often...questionable. Those aretwo legit weaknesses in his game. 

On the other hand, Carmello is truly an elite scorer (top 5 easy) and is a guy who demands double teams.  He cabshoe in the post, in isolation, from three, off catch-and-shoots, you name it  He gets to the line with regularity and puts opposing defenses in foul trouble.  He's an outstanding rebounder for a small forward and has the versatility to also pay shooting guard or power forward, whichcan cause major matchup nightmares.  Hegets crowds in the door.  More importantly, he is tough.  He's not one of those sissy new age guys like LeBron and Durant.  He'll pay hard through injuries, he well always play with 100% effort, and he has that 'desire towin' that Boston teams love so much.  He's a guy who can go toe to toe with a LeBron or Durant any night.

I don't love him as a player, but I respect him as a player.  As much as I dislike chuckers, Carmello really is a beast and he really is the epitome of what this team needs (one of the things - the other being a great big).

People say his defense sucks, but look at the other leading scorers out there - Durant, Love, Curry, Rose (when healthy).  They all suck on D. The only exceptions are George, Westbrook (an even worse chucker than Carmello) and LeBron, and you aren't getting either of those guys.

Look at last champions and you'll see you really do need an elite scorer to really compete for a title.  There might be the odd exception, but is pretty much a statistical given.

Plus Crawford is one of the worst chuckers on earth and a horrible defender, and Celtics fans loved him here.  Compared to Crawford, Melo is a messiah   

[Celtics4ever]

On the other hand, Carmello is truly an elite scorer

In the years, I watched the game, elite scorers win more scoring titles than titles.   There have been exceptions to this like Kobe and Jordan but those guys were elite scorers and lock down defenders.   Elite scorers make you relevant most of the time but don't win.  Bernard King, Iverson, Gerwin never won titles.   Melo is in this crowd which scores alot but doesn't bring back the title and not the Jordan and Kobe crowd.

As for the PP comparisons, I bet PP would punch you all in the face if he could.   PP never left a team willingly and was loyal.  Melo is loyal to himself.   PP adjusted when given others, Melo did not in NYC.   PP is not selfish and Melo is and there it is....

[crimson_stallion]

On the other hand, Carmello is truly an elite scorer

In the years, I watched the game, elite scorers win more scoring titles than titles.   There have been exceptions to this like Kobe and Jordan but those guys were elite scorers and lock down defenders.   Elite scorers make you relevant most of the time but don't win.  Bernard King, Iverson, Gerwin never won titles.   Melo is in this crowd which scores alot but doesn't bring back the title and not the Jordan and Kobe crowd.

As for the PP comparisons, I bet PP would punch you all in the face if he could.   PP never left a team willingly and was loyal.  Melo is loyal to himself.   PP adjusted when given others, Melo did not in NYC.   PP is not selfish and Melo is and there it is....

Jordan had Pippen, a top 5 player in the NBA.
 
Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, both top 5 centers.

If you think either Jordan or Pippen would have won those titles without those superstar side-kicks you are sorely mistaken.

How many titles did Pierce win before KG and Ray came over to Boston?  He had a second All-Star by his side for many of those years (Walker) but never came close to a title until KG and Ray came over.  Many people at the time would have said Pierce will never win a title, but they would have been wrong...right?

How many titles did Lebron win before he joined with Wade and Bosh?  Even with both of those guys, they still got knocked out by Dallas in teir first year together.

How many titles have Durant and Westbrook won?  Would you take Durant for Sully, Green and a 1st Rounder?  I bet you would!

Dwight Howard dominated on both ends of the floor, how many titles does he have?

About the only star I can think of who won a title in recent times without other superstars (in their primes) by his side was Hakeem, and you could argue that he is the greatest center (overall) ever to play the game.

Who has Carmello had?  Who did Iverson have? When AI came to Denver he was already on the decline.  The best player Carmello ever played with was Amare, and that didn't work because both were offernsively oriented players with defensive limitations who needed the ball to be effective. Also because Amare didn't really last too long.

I'm not saying Carmello is the messiah or that he can win a title on his own, I'm just saying that nobody else can either. Give him a break - he's never been on a team that had the pieces to contend. 

If you put him in a situation where everything is on him (as he has been in the past) then of course you won't win a title.  Put the right players around him and you absolutely will have a contender.  He's an elite core player that is suitable to build around, he's not a one man army.

[Moranis]

On the other hand, Carmello is truly an elite scorer

In the years, I watched the game, elite scorers win more scoring titles than titles.   There have been exceptions to this like Kobe and Jordan but those guys were elite scorers and lock down defenders.   Elite scorers make you relevant most of the time but don't win.  Bernard King, Iverson, Gerwin never won titles.   Melo is in this crowd which scores alot but doesn't bring back the title and not the Jordan and Kobe crowd.

As for the PP comparisons, I bet PP would punch you all in the face if he could.   PP never left a team willingly and was loyal.  Melo is loyal to himself.   PP adjusted when given others, Melo did not in NYC.   PP is not selfish and Melo is and there it is....

Jordan had Pippen, a top 5 player in the NBA.
 
Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, both top 5 centers.

If you think either Jordan or Pippen would have won those titles without those superstar side-kicks you are sorely mistaken.

How many titles did Pierce win before KG and Ray came over to Boston?  He had a second All-Star by his side for many of those years (Walker) but never came close to a title until KG and Ray came over.  Many people at the time would have said Pierce will never win a title, but they would have been wrong...right?

How many titles did Lebron win before he joined with Wade and Bosh?  Even with both of those guys, they still got knocked out by Dallas in teir first year together.

How many titles have Durant and Westbrook won?  Would you take Durant for Sully, Green and a 1st Rounder?  I bet you would!

Dwight Howard dominated on both ends of the floor, how many titles does he have?

About the only star I can think of who won a title in recent times without other superstars (in their primes) by his side was Hakeem, and you could argue that he is the greatest center (overall) ever to play the game.

Who has Carmello had?  Who did Iverson have? When AI came to Denver he was already on the decline.  The best player Carmello ever played with was Amare, and that didn't work because both were offernsively oriented players with defensive limitations who needed the ball to be effective. Also because Amare didn't really last too long.

I'm not saying Carmello is the messiah or that he can win a title on his own, I'm just saying that nobody else can either. Give him a break - he's never been on a team that had the pieces to contend. 

If you put him in a situation where everything is on him (as he has been in the past) then of course you won't win a title.  Put the right players around him and you absolutely will have a contender.  He's an elite core player that is suitable to build around, he's not a one man army.

True, but some of that is clearly on Anthony and his desire to max out every single contract every single time.  It was the same problem Garnett had in Minnesota.  His contract was so big he hampered his teams ability to put other players around him.   

[KGs Knee]

I really do like the idea of Rondo and Melo together. A PG getting Melo the ball in all the 'right places' would only make Melo more efficient.

Care to guess when the Truth's most efficient years came? With Rondo. Rondo is almost the perfect complement for an elite scorer, even if the defense is lacking.

Having solid defenders elsewhere on the foster would obviously be a requisite to truly contend, though.

[PAOBoston]

All you guys saying no to a Melo b/c he's a blackhole/overrated/etc are crazy. He's a top 5 player/scorer for his position. To me, he eerily reminds me of Pierce pre-Garnett era. Melo is a great scorer. He chucks up so many shots in NY because he literally has no help. Considering, he may bolt NY, the C's could have the chips to get him. He's still in his prime and at about the age where it clicked for Pierce. I'd rather see Melo than that scrub Jeff Green playing SF.

[Endless Paradise]

I understand a lot of what people are saying here on both fronts.

On one hand yes, Melo is a bit of a black hole.  Yes, his defensive effort is often...questionable. Those aretwo legit weaknesses in his game. 

On the other hand, Carmello is truly an elite scorer (top 5 easy) and is a guy who demands double teams.  He cabshoe in the post, in isolation, from three, off catch-and-shoots, you name it  He gets to the line with regularity and puts opposing defenses in foul trouble.  He's an outstanding rebounder for a small forward and has the versatility to also pay shooting guard or power forward, whichcan cause major matchup nightmares.  Hegets crowds in the door.  More importantly, he is tough.  He's not one of those sissy new age guys like LeBron and Durant.  He'll pay hard through injuries, he well always play with 100% effort, and he has that 'desire towin' that Boston teams love so much.  He's a guy who can go toe to toe with a LeBron or Durant any night.

I don't love him as a player, but I respect him as a player.  As much as I dislike chuckers, Carmello really is a beast and he really is the epitome of what this team needs (one of the things - the other being a great big).

People say his defense sucks, but look at the other leading scorers out there - Durant, Love, Curry, Rose (when healthy).  They all suck on D. The only exceptions are George, Westbrook (an even worse chucker than Carmello) and LeBron, and you aren't getting either of those guys.

Look at last champions and you'll see you really do need an elite scorer to really compete for a title.  There might be the odd exception, but is pretty much a statistical given.

Plus Crawford is one of the worst chuckers on earth and a horrible defender, and Celtics fans loved him here.  Compared to Crawford, Melo is a messiah

Durant does NOT suck at defense.  Hell, he's had better defensive ratings than LeBron this season - I'm not saying he's better than LeBron on defense, but he's been more effective at it this season.

[TheWatersEdge]

It takes a few years to build a team around somebody of course and building around Melo hasn't worked in either Denver or NY.  Even with a top defensive center in Chandler, neither team was able to do make much post season noise.  Melo, is a talented chucker, personally I enjoyed watching AI more than Melo, and am thrilled neither have been on the C's. 

I'm in the camp that we really try to build our own team via draft picks, and hope for a longer competitive run than we had with the last Big 3 era.