Are these PGs better than our Rondo?

[action781]

I have an interesting proposition:

What if these PGs played each other one on one who would emerge victorious?

First off, I've gotta say this would be a lot of fun to watch and an absolute score-fest.  Without big centers coming to provide help in the lane, these players would be finishing a very high percentage of buckets.

I'm going to say definitely not Rondo.  He would be just given the 15 foot jumpers all day and doesn't hit them at a high enough clip.

It will probably be a player who can knock down the mid range shot and is very capable of getting to the rim without the use of screens.  I'm going to say Rose.  I think his size might be somewhat disruptive on defense and his combination of size, strength, and explosiveness will be good on offense.

[KGs Knee]

I have a real problem with this idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than play-making ability.

Why?

It is really quite simple, actually.

In terms of ability to score, and score efficiently, PG is the position most likely to have a difficult time doing this well, while still keeping the rest of their teammates involved in the offense.

CP3 is probably the only PG currently in the league that is capable of doing this effectively.  Rose, Westbrook and the like are not.  They look to "get their own" far too often, at the expense of the rest of their teammates.

To put it simply; if a PG's first thought is to score, instead of pass, that is a huge problem.

Maybe Rose and Westbrook in terms of pure playmaking ability (which is highly subjective) but I'd say all the rest are as good a passer as Rondo.  They all have extremely good vision and creativity.  There's not a pass that Rondo can make that these others can't.   

Nope, not even close.  This is just laughable.  Rondo is so far superior, there really isn't a comparison to be made.

If they shot less and tried to put up higher assist numbers, they are more than capable of matching Rondo's assist average. 

Again, not a chance.  The only PG's I could possibly see averaging the assists Rondo does are CP3 and maybe a few other lower tier guys (i.e. Calderon etc.)

[PhoSita]

I have a real problem with this idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than play-making ability.

Why?

It is really quite simple, actually.

In terms of ability to score, and score efficiently, PG is the position most likely to have a difficult time doing this well, while still keeping the rest of their teammates involved in the offense.

CP3 is probably the only PG currently in the league that is capable of doing this effectively.  Rose, Westbrook and the like are not.  They look to "get their own" far too often, at the expense of the rest of their teammates.

To put it simply; if a PG's first thought is to score, instead of pass, that is a huge problem.

The problem is that the league has changed the rules in recent years to emphasive ball-dominant scorers.  That is why each year we see more and more point guards in the league who can score 15-20 points on any given night. 

While it may have been true in the past that placing your offensive emphasis on your point guard was an ineffective or inefficient route, I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore.

Modern NBA teams expect to get much more scoring from their guards and much less scoring from their big men compared to teams in previous eras.  That's why it becomes a problem if you are a team carrying not one but two guards who struggle to consistently score more than 10-15 points.

Also the increased emphasis on scoring from outside gives teams with deadly ball-handlers a great advantage.  Surround a guy like that with shooters and he has tons of space to operate and penetrate, forcing the defense to collapse and leave shooters open.  In that sense, score-first guards can actually operate within the flow of the offense, enabling and being enabled by their teammates, even if they aren't racking up assists.

In the past, when there was such a focus on post-play, there wasn't as much room for that.

[D.o.s.]

If they shot less and tried to put up higher assist numbers, they are more than capable of matching Rondo's assist average. 

Again, not a chance.  The only PG's I could possibly see averaging the assists Rondo does are CP3 and maybe a few other lower tier guys (i.e. Calderon etc.)

FWIW; here are the stats for Rondo, CP3, Deron Williams and Tony parker through their first seven seasons in the NBA. I left out Curry, Rose, Irving and Westbrook because they haven't hit that number of seasons yet.

Those seasons, very quickly, are 2002-2008 for Parker, 2006-2012 for Paul and Williams, and 2007-2013 for Rondo.

http://bkref.com/tiny/QGjAc

Interesting to note:
Rondo's played the fewest regular season games of the four, coming in with 475. CP3 has 485, Deron has 506, and Tony Parker has 540.

APG:
Rondo has 8.3
Parker has 5.5
CP3 has 9.8
Deron has 9.2

Assist %:
Rondo has 40.9
Parker has 30.3
CP3 has 40.6
Deron has 42.7


In the playoffs:
Parker had played (and started) in 117 playoff games in his first seven seasons. Holy. Crap.
Rondo had played/started in 92.
Paul had played/started in 34.
Deron had played/started in 44*

*for some reason BBref has this bit capped at 2010--I assume because the Nets missed the playoffs for two years prior, though I'm not sure why D-Will's phoned in 2013 run isn't here.

Playoff APG:
Rondo: 9.2
Parker: 4.8
Paul: 10.1
Deron: 9.6

Playoff Assist%:
Rondo: 43.0
Parker: 25.6
Paul: 48.3
Williams: 40.4

[D.o.s.]

I'm about to to another search + analysis with the same parameters starting in 2009, Rondo's breakout year, by the way. Just figured it'd be interesting to see where each of these guys where seven years into their NBA careers.

[KGs Knee]

I'm about to to another search + analysis with the same parameters starting in 2009, Rondo's breakout year, by the way. Just figured it'd be interesting to see where each of these guys where seven years into their NBA careers.

That was my very first thought.

Rondo's first few years he had such a low usage and assist rate, it makes those numbers you posted a bit misleading.

Have any of those players ever averaged over 11 apg in a season?

[Vox_Populi]

Have any of those players ever averaged over 11 apg in a season?

In the 07-08 season CP3 averaged 21/4/11.6. Next year he averaged 22.8/5.5/11. And in the 10-11 season, D-Will went 15/4.6/12.8. So the answer to your question is yes.

Paul probably deserved to be the MVP in 2008. He was ridiculous that year and he was only 22.

[kozlodoev]

Have any of those players ever averaged over 11 apg in a season?

Deron Williams averaged more than 10.5 apg three(!) times, and 10.3 apg once. All while scoring at least 18 ppg.

[kozlodoev]

Have any of those players ever averaged over 11 apg in a season?

In the 07-08 season CP3 averaged 21/4/11.6. Next year he averaged 22.8/5.5/11. And in the 10-11 season, D-Will went 15/4.6/12.8. So the answer to your question is yes.

Paul probably deserved to be the MVP in 2008. He was ridiculous that year and he was only 22.

Yahoo Sports is a lousy website for stats. He averaged 12.8 in 12 games with the Nets, 10.3 for the season overall.

[D.o.s.]

This is all regular season, because the playoffs are too small a sample size to matter for all of them save Rondo and Parker (which speaks more to overall team quality than any of the individual players, IMO).

2008-2009:
http://bkref.com/tiny/vCaPS

APG:
Rondo--8.2
Paul--11.0
Williams--10.7
Parker--6.9

Assist %:
Rondo--39.7
Paul--54.5
Williams--47.8
Parker--40.1

2009-10:
http://bkref.com/tiny/3riHF

APG:
Rondo--9.8
Paul--10.7
Williams--10.5
Parker--5.7

Assist %:
Rondo--43.7
Paul--45.4
Williams--44.5
Parker--30.9



2010-2011
http://bkref.com/tiny/4LQ4F

APG:
Rondo--11.2
Williams--10.1
Paul--9.8
Parker 6.6

Assist %
Rondo--47.1
Williams--45.9
Paul--45.8
Parker--35.7

2011-2012
Lockout season.
http://bkref.com/tiny/7g2dy

APG:
Rondo--11.7
Williams--8.7
Paul--9.1
Parker--7.7

Assist %
Rondo--52.5
Williams--46.6
Paul--43.8
Parker--40.3

2012-2013
http://bkref.com/tiny/jLWfI


APG:
Rondo--11.1
Williams--7.7
Paul--9.7
Parker--7.6

Assist %
Rondo--49.3
Williams--37.5
Paul--46.5
Parker--40.4

[D.o.s.]

Good time to point out that 2010 was when Paul played for half a season before needing knee surgery. I don't think he's been the same player since, and his stats have reflected that.

Hopefully that's not the case with Rondo, Rose, and Westbrook.

[KGs Knee]

Just as I suspected, the only other PG's beside Rondo to average more than 11 apg in a season in the last 10 years are CP3 and Nash.  DWill was close, but not quite.

[D.o.s.]

Just as I suspected, the only other PG's beside Rondo to average more than 11 apg in a season in the last 10 years are CP3 and Nash.  DWill was close, but not quite.

I think his APG really suffered when he was moved to New Jersey and traded in Sloan's extremely fluid offense for the Iso-ball that made/makes up a lot of Nets possessions.

[KGs Knee]

Just as I suspected, the only other PG's beside Rondo to average more than 11 apg in a season in the last 10 years are CP3 and Nash.  DWill was close, but not quite.

I think his APG really suffered when he was moved to New Jersey and traded in Sloan's extremely fluid offense for the Iso-ball that made/makes up a lot of Nets possessions.

I suppose we'll find out this year with DWill.  He has plenty of weapons to pass to now, and a coach that knows how to run an offense.

[Greenback]

Rondo shot a whopping 62% from the free throw line.

He also shot a whopping 24% from 3 point land.

These stats are below average in the D League.