Author Topic: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?  (Read 48651 times)

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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2013, 05:11:58 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Just as I suspected, the only other PG's beside Rondo to average more than 11 apg in a season in the last 10 years are CP3 and Nash.  DWill was close, but not quite.
If you insist on setting some mystical boundaries, I think we should be done trying to reason with you here. There's nothing special about averaging exactly 11 assists, and Williams' 10.7 apg are not materially different from Rondo's 11.1. On the other hand, the difference between 20 and 14 points a game is appreciably more significant.
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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2013, 05:59:50 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Assuming health, CP3 is the only guy above Rondo in this list.

Rose is an average defensive player and not a true PG.  He's a natural SG with PG skills (likeWade eearly in his career) and yet Rose at the same time is not a very versatile offensive player.  He's offense mostly revolves around "attack the basket".  He is really just average as a shooter.  Again he is very much like a young D Wade only Rose is probably slightly better as a PG, while Wade was a better defender and scorer.

Westbrook is pretty much a clone of Derek Rose, except that Westbrook is probably a better scorer and definitely is a far superior defender.  Still not a pure PG, and I don't believe he has the ability to make those around him better as Paul and Rondo can.

Parker is more of the same.  Slasher, shoot first PG, average defender.  I'd pt him in the same group as Rose and Westbrook, only he's experience and veteran leadership probably give him the edge.

Deron in terms of pure skill is top 3   He's a legitimate pure PG who can average 20 PPG if he wanted to.  He's a great defender, great rebounder, has elite size and good athleticism, excellent ball handler.  Complete game really, but lately he just hasn't shown it and for that reason I put him at #3.

Rondo is hands down the best pure PG inn the NBA.  His court vision, IQ, passing ability are without peer ever since Nash declined.  His defense is up there with the best at his position, he's the best rebounding PG in the NBA, and he's an elite ball handler.  Offensively he had limitations, but Is better than he's given credit for.  He's an elite finisher around the basket and is explosive with his dribble penetration.  His jump shot is much improved and much better than he is given credit for.  He shot a better percentage from midrange than anybody else on that list,  and last season showed he can consistently make teams pay for Ieaving him open from there.  He also improved from three and while he isnt scaring many people from there, he looked much more comfortable taking and making those shots last season.  His free throw shooting still sucks and probably always will, but if he improves his three point shot that will be the only weakness in his game.

Paul at this stage is still the best.  He has elite court vision, elite leadership skills, he can score efficiently from anywhere o n the court, he's an exceptional defender and he's tough as nails.  He's also got an elite handle and is one of the lowest turnover rates of any PG in the league.  His game is without flaw.

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2013, 06:43:03 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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Have any of those players ever averaged over 11 apg in a season?
In the 07-08 season CP3 averaged 21/4/11.6. Next year he averaged 22.8/5.5/11. And in the 10-11 season, D-Will went 15/4.6/12.8. So the answer to your question is yes.

Paul probably deserved to be the MVP in 2008. He was ridiculous that year and he was only 22.
Yahoo Sports is a lousy website for stats. He averaged 12.8 in 12 games with the Nets, 10.3 for the season overall.
Oops.

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2013, 07:45:02 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Just for fuel to this whole debate, I did a search of every guard season since 2006-07, for any players that played at least 1800 minutes and average at least 9 assists, 10+ points, 4+ rebounds and 2+steals per 36 minutes.

Chris Paul has done it 3 times ('09, '11, '13).
Rondo has done it twice ('10, '11).

Rondo just missed in 2011-12, only averaging 1.7 steals per 36.  He was close to on pace last year, but clocked in only ~1400 minutes before the injury.

Since 2000-01, this feat has actually only been accomplished two other times:  Kidd in '02 and Tinsley in '02.  Kidd came close 4 other times, coming up just short in steals.

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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2013, 09:38:18 AM »

Offline Casperian

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I have a real problem with this idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than play-making ability.

Why?

It is really quite simple, actually.

In terms of ability to score, and score efficiently, PG is the position most likely to have a difficult time doing this well, while still keeping the rest of their teammates involved in the offense.

CP3 is probably the only PG currently in the league that is capable of doing this effectively.  Rose, Westbrook and the like are not.  They look to "get their own" far too often, at the expense of the rest of their teammates.

To put it simply; if a PG's first thought is to score, instead of pass, that is a huge problem.

You didn´t answer my question, you just reiterated your post with different words.

Why do you have a problem with the idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than "play-making" ability?
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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2013, 10:02:34 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I have a real problem with this idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than play-making ability.

Why?

It is really quite simple, actually.

In terms of ability to score, and score efficiently, PG is the position most likely to have a difficult time doing this well, while still keeping the rest of their teammates involved in the offense.

CP3 is probably the only PG currently in the league that is capable of doing this effectively.  Rose, Westbrook and the like are not.  They look to "get their own" far too often, at the expense of the rest of their teammates.

To put it simply; if a PG's first thought is to score, instead of pass, that is a huge problem.

You didn´t answer my question, you just reiterated your post with different words.

Why do you have a problem with the idea that scoring from PG should be more highly valued than "play-making" ability?

  You have to consider (at least in Rondo's case) how efficient his "play-making" is. This was (most recently) in another thread, but someone from the Wizards looked at every pass from Rondo that either resulted in a shot or a turnover (where a shot would have likely happened without the turnover) over a 3 month period and found that the Celts scored on (IIRC) 55% or so of those passes.

  Since that includes turnovers, the actual conversion rate on the shots taken would have to be higher than 55%. So the raw fg% on shots taken from Rondo's passes is over 55%. Consider the percentage of Rondo's assists that are for 3s, if the raw fg% is over 55% than the eFG% will be over 61%. The study ignored and-1s and it ignored any passes that resulted in fouls that would lead to foul shots, so (estimating, the league average for TS% is about 8% higher than eFG%) the TS% would be higher than 65%.

  How many point guards have a TS% higher than 65%? *That's* why it doesn't necessarily make sense to value scoring over "play-making".

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2013, 10:23:12 AM »

Offline Smitty77

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http://www.hoopsworld.com/top-6-2013-2014-nba-point-guards

Steph Curry
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Kyrie Irving
Tony Parker
Chris Paul

Who in your opinion is better than Rondo from the above?

IMHO Rondo is better.

Better is an astonishingly useless word when it isn't qualified with another comparative factor.

All those guys are great NBA players, including Rondo.

To elaborate:

Curry just became the most prolific 3 point shooter in NBA history (for one individual season).

Derrick Rose is the youngest NBA MVP ever.

Russell Westbrook's first four seasons in the league put him in Oscar Robertson's zip code, statistically.

Tony Parker is a three time NBA champion and Finals MVP who has become the focal point of his team's offense at the age of 31, a full five or so years after his prime.

Chris Paul may be the best half-court PG playing today and is a model prototypical PG.


I take issue with ranking Irving that high because of health, but I think we can all agree that the potential is certainly obvious.

Curry is NOT a pure PG.  He had a good year, but that means he had ONE good year.  I love Curry.

D. Rose was GIVEN  the MVP that year!!  They decided at the beginning of the year that he WOULD BE the MVP and he got it.  It was gifted.  Simply, he was NOT the Most Valuable Player in the league that year.

Westbrook is NOT a pure PG and is NOT as good a defender as Rondo.  He could NOT guard LeBron like Rondo can and does.

Tony Parker is a very good leader of his team and role player blessed with being able to play with arguably the best PF of all time.  Tony had a great Finals for ONE year.  Rondo overall has a MUCH HIGHER Player Efficiency in the playoffs than Parker.  Not close.

Chris Paul is very overrated.  I tire of people lavishing so much praise on him.  He does not get to the basket very often since his knee injury and he is NOT a good man-to-man defender.

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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2013, 10:25:51 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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All these guys are better.  I'd take all of them over Rondo.  These guys aren't overrated by their flashy scoring.  Scoring is a pretty big deal for a point guard too.  They all happen to be pretty good to great passers too, yes, even Westbrook. 

Rondo's on/off offensive impact including games he's missed entirely aren't even all that good.  They're actually in the negative.  Sure Rondo's assist number are gaudy but maybe pounding the ball for 85 percent of possessions isn't the most optimal way to run an offense.  If he doesn't pound the ball, it's hard to run anything through the  middle of the court if he stands on the wing because his defender can wreak havoc.  He's also by far the most turnover prone point guard in transition.  I scoff whenever I hear the phrase "run with Rondo."  For one, Rondo has to cut down on his transition turnovers.  Two, he has to have a faster internal clock to take advantage of secondary transition opportunities.

Which of them would you prefer to have over Rondo in a huge playoff game? I can't imagine you choosing someone else... maybe CP3 and Parker. Literally, every other choice seems incredibly silly.

When's Rondo ever going to play in another huge playoff game?

I suppose now that the Celtics are teetering on relevancy again and meaningful games are going to be impossible to come by, we're going to see a proliferation of these attempts to conflate Rondo's ability on this board.

Sigh.

Rondo is a good PG. I'd certainly take Paul, Rose and Irving off that list ahead of him.
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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2013, 10:36:21 AM »

Offline Chris

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All these guys are better.  I'd take all of them over Rondo.  These guys aren't overrated by their flashy scoring.  Scoring is a pretty big deal for a point guard too.  They all happen to be pretty good to great passers too, yes, even Westbrook. 

Rondo's on/off offensive impact including games he's missed entirely aren't even all that good.  They're actually in the negative.  Sure Rondo's assist number are gaudy but maybe pounding the ball for 85 percent of possessions isn't the most optimal way to run an offense.  If he doesn't pound the ball, it's hard to run anything through the  middle of the court if he stands on the wing because his defender can wreak havoc.  He's also by far the most turnover prone point guard in transition.  I scoff whenever I hear the phrase "run with Rondo."  For one, Rondo has to cut down on his transition turnovers.  Two, he has to have a faster internal clock to take advantage of secondary transition opportunities.

Which of them would you prefer to have over Rondo in a huge playoff game? I can't imagine you choosing someone else... maybe CP3 and Parker. Literally, every other choice seems incredibly silly.

When's Rondo ever going to play in another huge playoff game?

I suppose now that the Celtics are teetering on relevancy again and meaningful games are going to be impossible to come by, we're going to see a proliferation of these attempts to conflate Rondo's ability on this board.

Sigh.

Rondo is a good PG. I'd certainly take Paul, Rose and Irving off that list ahead of him.

I think if the C's decide to keep Rondo longterm (likely paying him close to the max after next year), he very well could see a number of bigtime playoff games.  Maybe not the finals...although that's certainly possible...but they could certainly be a good playoff team.

Things look bleak right now, but they have assets to make a quick turnaround, if they want to build around Rondo. 

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2013, 11:05:52 AM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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I say

CP3
Rose
Rondo
Kyrie
Russell
Tony P
DWill
Steph(not really a point more of a short SG)

This year that will be how the PGs rank, I see Kyrie Irving carrying the cavs this years. DONT BEELEE ME JUS WATCH

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2013, 11:10:36 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Ill post my thoughts on the OPs list next time but I just have to comment that I really hate it when people cite "none of those players have ever played in the conference finals" or some other form of that as some counter-argument why Rondo is by far a superior player. Rondo is a good player, undoubtedly, but to say that the Celtics' success is HIS doing and not a team effort that featured all-time greats like Pierce and KG (who despite being past their prime are still pretty darn dominant) is pretty disrespectful and ignorant IMO.

The only time that argument will hold water is if the C's actually make the eastern conference finals this year (with a healthy rondo and this current squad) and I'm seriously doubting that will happen.
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Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2013, 01:19:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Ill post my thoughts on the OPs list next time but I just have to comment that I really hate it when people cite "none of those players have ever played in the conference finals" or some other form of that as some counter-argument why Rondo is by far a superior player. Rondo is a good player, undoubtedly, but to say that the Celtics' success is HIS doing and not a team effort that featured all-time greats like Pierce and KG (who despite being past their prime are still pretty darn dominant) is pretty disrespectful and ignorant IMO.

  A team with two "pretty darn dominant" players probably shouldn't have had to fight tooth and nail to avoid a sweep at the hands of the Knicks. They're still very good players but they haven't exactly been immune to father time over the last few years.

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2013, 01:32:14 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
Rose is an average defensive player and not a true PG

Rose being an average defensive player is patently false. He's an excellent defensive point guard.

Just as an example...

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2013, 02:02:29 PM »

Offline The MadLad

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Assuming health, CP3 is the only guy above Rondo in this list.


Rondo is hands down the best pure PG inn the NBA.  His court vision, IQ, passing ability are without peer ever since Nash declined.  His defense is up there with the best at his position, he's the best rebounding PG in the NBA, and he's an elite ball handler.  Offensively he had limitations, but Is better than he's given credit for.  He's an elite finisher around the basket and is explosive with his dribble penetration.  His jump shot is much improved and much better than he is given credit for.  He shot a better percentage from midrange than anybody else on that list,  and last season showed he can consistently make teams pay for Ieaving him open from there.  He also improved from three and while he isnt scaring many people from there, he looked much more comfortable taking and making those shots last season.  His free throw shooting still sucks and probably always will, but if he improves his three point shot that will be the only weakness in his game.


This is a perspective that I respect, but completely disagree with.
Rondo is a good passer. But Too many times his need to hold the ball ruin the flow of our offense. He creates a lot of good shots for other players, but he also gets in trouble too often by keeping the ball to late. i see him constantly making a tough pass to a guy who is open, but was more open AND in rhythm a couple of seconds earlier.
He is one of the best rebounding PG in the NBA, that too comes at a price. Too often his defender is now open for a outlet pass and an easy transition basket. It all depends on if he gets the rebound and if there is a easy basket on the other side. Im glad he rebounds, but theres a cost to that. just like....
His defense. He gets a lot of steals. But he also runs around out of position too often and goes for too many steals. His 1on1 defense is awful. Terrible. Everyone goes right by him. Sometimes he wants them to go by him and he will attempt to steal the ball from behind. In general, when he makes a steal, people love it. But I would rather see him stick to the defense that the rest of the team is playing and stop his man. It seems to me, the elite PGs, the ones listed here, have an absolute field day when being guarded by rondo. Im sure someone can look up those stats.
Finishing around the hoop. Maybe im watching a different game, but considering he is 2ft away from the hoop, he is constantly missing layups, getting blocked, or getting swarmed by defenders and making a ill-advised pass to get out of trouble. his weird layups with tons of spin on the ball, again, make the announcers go crazy when it goes in, but too often it doesn't and is a terrible shot.
His shot is awful. You cant seriously think it isnt. He is one of the few players in the NBA who is left open consistently for 15' jumpers. No one even guards him. Save me the % or stats. No one is leaving any of those true elite PGs open like that. It happens all the time when i play against my son in the driveway, but very very rarely in the NBA. He may make a 3 now and then, but hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. If he looks more comfortable taking 3's, I promise you the rest of the celtic coaches and players are not. A rondo 3, or outside shot, is literally the worst shot on the floor every time. If hes taking it, there is either 2 seconds on the shot clock, or hes playing into the defenses strategy.
Rondo is a good PG. but his role on the court, which is very unique (as are his skill set), is to "be the straw that stirs the drink". thats it. He isnt a player you build around or depend on to win. He may assist other legit NBA studs in winning, and even make some plays that secure the win. But hes not an elite NBA PG, because he will never be the guy that can win you a game. and that puts a cap on his value. Not only are those other PGs better, but there is a bunch of other PGs who could fill his shoes for us and we wouldnt miss a beat. We may have to change our style of play, but we would gain some and lose some. J holiday, comes to mind. Lillard. Conley. Rubio.
And theres a bunch more players that arent as skilled as Rondo or these "other" Pgs, but I fell like we could start and be successful with really quickly.
Ive always been hard on Rondo. But hes got some major flaws that people seem to ignore. And not to mention his extremely immature attitude, which is a HUGE detriment to a team.
If hes as good as some people think, why is it that the celts are a better team when he didnt play? If hes an elite PG, why did the Celtics improve without him. Where they a better team without him, No. But they did win more games, play better, and improved without him. Its hard to fathom.

Re: Are these PGs better than our Rondo?
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2013, 04:13:19 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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Ill post my thoughts on the OPs list next time but I just have to comment that I really hate it when people cite "none of those players have ever played in the conference finals" or some other form of that as some counter-argument why Rondo is by far a superior player. Rondo is a good player, undoubtedly, but to say that the Celtics' success is HIS doing and not a team effort that featured all-time greats like Pierce and KG (who despite being past their prime are still pretty darn dominant) is pretty disrespectful and ignorant IMO.

The only time that argument will hold water is if the C's actually make the eastern conference finals this year (with a healthy rondo and this current squad) and I'm seriously doubting that will happen.

I don't mean to be disagreeable, but PP was in NO WAY "pretty darn dominant" in the playoffs.  He was "pretty darn embarrassing" to be frank.  KG was dominant in the playoffs.

Smitty77