Celtics are better than the Knicks. We should own them.

[PhoSita]

I consider Avery Bradley, Courtney Lee, Jordan Crawford, and most importantly Brandon Bass as role players who can make a difference.

What role do those guys play, though?

Bradley is a classic 3 and D guy.  He brings the "D" every night, but his shooting is pretty streaky.  He's not reliable as a floor spacer.  Courtney Lee is pretty much the same in that regard -- only his defense is a little bit trick-or-treat, too.

Brandon Bass doesn't do anything particularly well other than shoot.  Yes, he's become a pretty good defender in our system, but what he gives us in man defense he takes away in the inability to bother many shots around the rim (he's too short) or secure defensive rebounds.  Bass has one defined role: shoot mid-range jumpers.  That's fine, but he's been pretty streaky in that role this year and this team has a bigger need for other roles.

Crawford's role is supposed to be "microwave bench scorer."  He's not bad at that role, but he's not very efficient as a scorer and there are a lot of games where he takes more away from the offense than he adds.  Terry was supposed to do this, but quickly it was apparent we couldn't rely on him for that.  Barbosa showed the ability to be this guy (as he had in the past), but then he got injured. 

The Celtics really could use a "floor general" who calms down the offense and keeps things running smoothly.  Andre Miller being the best example of that archetype.  Terrence Williams in theory could be this, but he's just not experienced or very polished as a player.  In years past this role has been less important in the playoffs because Rondo plays 40 minutes.  Even so, Keyon Dooling was really helpful in this role last season.

The Celtics also desperately need a rebounding, do dirty work in the paint guy.  Reggie Evans is the example of that archetype, along with somebody like Leon Powe or our old friend Perk.  Jared Sullinger was supposed to be this for us, and was for most of the time that he played, but then he got injured.  In theory we'd like Shav Randolph or Chris Wilcox to be this guy for us, but Shav, like T-Will, is very unpolished.  Wilcox is just too soft outside of finishing lob dunks. 

Finally, the Celtics really miss that "designated shooter."  In years past it was Eddie House, and then Ray Allen became less of an all-purpose star and more of a super role player in this role.  Jason Terry was supposed to be this guy, but he's been abysmal and anything but reliable.  The Celtics don't have anybody on the roster other than Pierce who they can rely on for a difficult late three.  Green has been pretty clutch shooting threes from the corners, but he's not hitting a last second three off a screen or a pick anytime soon.


You'll see the recurring trend here is that we lack these roles on our team mostly because of injuries, or because off-season acquisitions completely failed (see: Terry).  This just goes back to the difficult truth that at the beginning of this season, we had the team we needed on paper. 

That team didn't give us the results we expected for the first few months of the season, but maybe if they had stayed healthy they could have gotten it together for the post-season.  But now, they're desperately undermanned and trying to make it work with spare parts. 

[PhoSita]

Just for reference:

Knicks role players --

Floor general: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni
Microwave scorer: J.R. Smith
3-and-D: Shumpert (Kidd plays this role too)
Rebounder / dirty work: Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin
Designated shooter: Novak, Copeland

It's not a perfect supporting cast, but they've got the major roles covered much better than the Celtics do.  On top of that, they've got the best scorer in the league.

[BballTim]

Just for reference:

Knicks role players --

Floor general: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni
Microwave scorer: J.R. Smith
3-and-D: Shumpert (Kidd plays this role too)
Rebounder / dirty work: Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin
Designated shooter: Novak, Copeland

It's not a perfect supporting cast, but they've got the major roles covered much better than the Celtics do.  On top of that, they've got the best scorer in the league.

  Do you have anyone on the team as a non-role player besides Melo? Do the same with the Celts and PP and your role players are Bradley, Terry, Lee, Crawford, Green, Bass and KG. With a healthy Rondo you'd add PP to that list.

[cman88]

honestly, it was 1 game in the grand scheme of things...while it wouldve been nice to grab game 1 in Nyc and put all the pressure on them.

they still have another chance to take homecourt away from the Knicks...they will make adjustments

1. Knicks cant guard Pierce
2. Green still is showing an ability to be an impact player whom the knicks cant guard

3. Garnett had one of the worst games offensively I have ever seen. I doubt he plays that horrible again...Terry also was horrible he had some good looks but just wasnt making them

4. Turnovers killed the C's but this is definitely something that can be limited. just work with bradley on those lob passes

4. its not the first time the C's have lost a first game. Doc will make adjustments. dont count this team out.

[PhoSita]

Just for reference:

Knicks role players --

Floor general: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni
Microwave scorer: J.R. Smith
3-and-D: Shumpert (Kidd plays this role too)
Rebounder / dirty work: Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin
Designated shooter: Novak, Copeland

It's not a perfect supporting cast, but they've got the major roles covered much better than the Celtics do.  On top of that, they've got the best scorer in the league.

  Do you have anyone on the team as a non-role player besides Melo? Do the same with the Celts and PP and your role players are Bradley, Terry, Lee, Crawford, Green, Bass and KG. With a healthy Rondo you'd add PP to that list.

No, I don't think anybody on the Knicks other than Melo -- maybe Chandler -- is a good enough all-around player to be considered other than a role player. 

But the Mavericks a couple years back were not so dissimilar.  The superstar + role players plan can work, though it's obviously not as effective as the multiple superstars plan.

On the Celtics, I'd say you have Green, Pierce, and KG as multi-purpose players, and then everybody else right now is a role player.

Floor general:
Microwave scorer: Crawford, Terry (both crappy / unreliable)
3-and-D: Bradley, Lee (pretty decent, though lacking size)
Rebounder / dirty work: Shav Randolph, Chris Wilcox (sub-par)
Designated shooter: Terry (meh)


Bass is a "designated mid-range shooter" I guess.  It's an extremely niche role that worked well for the team last season but isn't nearly as useful for this team. Mid-range jump shots just aren't as valuable in today's league, and the best teams don't take very many of them.

[tarheelsxxiii]

I consider Avery Bradley, Courtney Lee, Jordan Crawford, and most importantly Brandon Bass as role players who can make a difference.

What role do those guys play, though?

Bradley is a classic 3 and D guy.  He brings the "D" every night, but his shooting is pretty streaky.  He's not reliable as a floor spacer.  Courtney Lee is pretty much the same in that regard -- only his defense is a little bit trick-or-treat, too.

Brandon Bass doesn't do anything particularly well other than shoot.  Yes, he's become a pretty good defender in our system, but what he gives us in man defense he takes away in the inability to bother many shots around the rim (he's too short) or secure defensive rebounds.  Bass has one defined role: shoot mid-range jumpers.  That's fine, but he's been pretty streaky in that role this year and this team has a bigger need for other roles.

Crawford's role is supposed to be "microwave bench scorer."  He's not bad at that role, but he's not very efficient as a scorer and there are a lot of games where he takes more away from the offense than he adds.  Terry was supposed to do this, but quickly it was apparent we couldn't rely on him for that.  Barbosa showed the ability to be this guy (as he had in the past), but then he got injured. 

The Celtics really could use a "floor general" who calms down the offense and keeps things running smoothly.  Andre Miller being the best example of that archetype.  Terrence Williams in theory could be this, but he's just not experienced or very polished as a player.  In years past this role has been less important in the playoffs because Rondo plays 40 minutes.  Even so, Keyon Dooling was really helpful in this role last season.

The Celtics also desperately need a rebounding, do dirty work in the paint guy.  Reggie Evans is the example of that archetype, along with somebody like Leon Powe or our old friend Perk.  Jared Sullinger was supposed to be this for us, and was for most of the time that he played, but then he got injured.  In theory we'd like Shav Randolph or Chris Wilcox to be this guy for us, but Shav, like T-Will, is very unpolished.  Wilcox is just too soft outside of finishing lob dunks. 

Finally, the Celtics really miss that "designated shooter."  In years past it was Eddie House, and then Ray Allen became less of an all-purpose star and more of a super role player in this role.  Jason Terry was supposed to be this guy, but he's been abysmal and anything but reliable.  The Celtics don't have anybody on the roster other than Pierce who they can rely on for a difficult late three.  Green has been pretty clutch shooting threes from the corners, but he's not hitting a last second three off a screen or a pick anytime soon.


You'll see the recurring trend here is that we lack these roles on our team mostly because of injuries, or because off-season acquisitions completely failed (see: Terry).  This just goes back to the difficult truth that at the beginning of this season, we had the team we needed on paper. 

That team didn't give us the results we expected for the first few months of the season, but maybe if they had stayed healthy they could have gotten it together for the post-season.  But now, they're desperately undermanned and trying to make it work with spare parts.

I'm generally peeved by your posts because they're usually sopping in negativity. But this is solid, spot on analysis.

[BballTim]

Just for reference:

Knicks role players --

Floor general: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni
Microwave scorer: J.R. Smith
3-and-D: Shumpert (Kidd plays this role too)
Rebounder / dirty work: Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin
Designated shooter: Novak, Copeland

It's not a perfect supporting cast, but they've got the major roles covered much better than the Celtics do.  On top of that, they've got the best scorer in the league.

  Do you have anyone on the team as a non-role player besides Melo? Do the same with the Celts and PP and your role players are Bradley, Terry, Lee, Crawford, Green, Bass and KG. With a healthy Rondo you'd add PP to that list.

No, I don't think anybody on the Knicks other than Melo -- maybe Chandler -- is a good enough all-around player to be considered other than a role player. 

But the Mavericks a couple years back were not so dissimilar.  The superstar + role players plan can work, though it's obviously not as effective as the multiple superstars plan.

On the Celtics, I'd say you have Green, Pierce, and KG as multi-purpose players, and then everybody else right now is a role player.

  Your decision on who's a role player seems to be based on bolstering your argument of which team has better role players. Smith plays more minutes than Green and puts up bigger numbers when he plays. If anything you should have Green as a role player and not Smith, which would obviously skew the role player comparison in a direction you don't want it to go.

[PhoSita]

Just for reference:

Knicks role players --

Floor general: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni
Microwave scorer: J.R. Smith
3-and-D: Shumpert (Kidd plays this role too)
Rebounder / dirty work: Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin
Designated shooter: Novak, Copeland

It's not a perfect supporting cast, but they've got the major roles covered much better than the Celtics do.  On top of that, they've got the best scorer in the league.

  Do you have anyone on the team as a non-role player besides Melo? Do the same with the Celts and PP and your role players are Bradley, Terry, Lee, Crawford, Green, Bass and KG. With a healthy Rondo you'd add PP to that list.

No, I don't think anybody on the Knicks other than Melo -- maybe Chandler -- is a good enough all-around player to be considered other than a role player. 

But the Mavericks a couple years back were not so dissimilar.  The superstar + role players plan can work, though it's obviously not as effective as the multiple superstars plan.

On the Celtics, I'd say you have Green, Pierce, and KG as multi-purpose players, and then everybody else right now is a role player.

  Your decision on who's a role player seems to be based on bolstering your argument of which team has better role players. Smith plays more minutes than Green and puts up bigger numbers when he plays. If anything you should have Green as a role player and not Smith, which would obviously skew the role player comparison in a direction you don't want it to go.

I don't really see what you're saying.

Whether you want to call J.R. a role player or not, or Green a role player, or not, it doesn't change the fact that one team has guys to fill a number of roles that need to be filled, and the other doesn't.

For the sake of argument, let's say that Green and J.R. are equal as "microwave scorers" for their team, whether or not they come off the bench.  They both play pretty close to starter minutes.

The Celtics still have a ton of holes, while the Knicks have far fewer.

[PhoSita]

I consider Avery Bradley, Courtney Lee, Jordan Crawford, and most importantly Brandon Bass as role players who can make a difference.

What role do those guys play, though?

Bradley is a classic 3 and D guy.  He brings the "D" every night, but his shooting is pretty streaky.  He's not reliable as a floor spacer.  Courtney Lee is pretty much the same in that regard -- only his defense is a little bit trick-or-treat, too.

Brandon Bass doesn't do anything particularly well other than shoot.  Yes, he's become a pretty good defender in our system, but what he gives us in man defense he takes away in the inability to bother many shots around the rim (he's too short) or secure defensive rebounds.  Bass has one defined role: shoot mid-range jumpers.  That's fine, but he's been pretty streaky in that role this year and this team has a bigger need for other roles.

Crawford's role is supposed to be "microwave bench scorer."  He's not bad at that role, but he's not very efficient as a scorer and there are a lot of games where he takes more away from the offense than he adds.  Terry was supposed to do this, but quickly it was apparent we couldn't rely on him for that.  Barbosa showed the ability to be this guy (as he had in the past), but then he got injured. 

The Celtics really could use a "floor general" who calms down the offense and keeps things running smoothly.  Andre Miller being the best example of that archetype.  Terrence Williams in theory could be this, but he's just not experienced or very polished as a player.  In years past this role has been less important in the playoffs because Rondo plays 40 minutes.  Even so, Keyon Dooling was really helpful in this role last season.

The Celtics also desperately need a rebounding, do dirty work in the paint guy.  Reggie Evans is the example of that archetype, along with somebody like Leon Powe or our old friend Perk.  Jared Sullinger was supposed to be this for us, and was for most of the time that he played, but then he got injured.  In theory we'd like Shav Randolph or Chris Wilcox to be this guy for us, but Shav, like T-Will, is very unpolished.  Wilcox is just too soft outside of finishing lob dunks. 

Finally, the Celtics really miss that "designated shooter."  In years past it was Eddie House, and then Ray Allen became less of an all-purpose star and more of a super role player in this role.  Jason Terry was supposed to be this guy, but he's been abysmal and anything but reliable.  The Celtics don't have anybody on the roster other than Pierce who they can rely on for a difficult late three.  Green has been pretty clutch shooting threes from the corners, but he's not hitting a last second three off a screen or a pick anytime soon.


You'll see the recurring trend here is that we lack these roles on our team mostly because of injuries, or because off-season acquisitions completely failed (see: Terry).  This just goes back to the difficult truth that at the beginning of this season, we had the team we needed on paper. 

That team didn't give us the results we expected for the first few months of the season, but maybe if they had stayed healthy they could have gotten it together for the post-season.  But now, they're desperately undermanned and trying to make it work with spare parts.

I'm generally peeved by your posts because they're usually sopping in negativity. But this is solid, spot on analysis.

Thanks!

It's been pretty difficult to find many positives this year.  I've never been one to be positive for the sake of positivity or "green faith." 

Still, I try to base my opinions on rational analysis and every once in a while I hope that it shows.

[PhoSita]

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

hey larrybird33 go ahead and give me my 25 tommy points.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

One last note:  Boston tends to excel when they can focus on one team and then build a strategy against them.  We're an intelligent veteran team that knows how to adapt to our opponent.  I wouldn't be surprised to see us lose this first game... and then win the next 4.  That's just the way we are. 

Yup... we lost the first game.  That was expected.  We have a history of losing the first game and adjusting.  Let everyone have their hissy fit panic attacks... it's like they haven't followed the Celtics before.

Right on cue... Pierce with 39 minutes and KG with 37.  We held the Knicks to 85 points.  Our bench contributed a total of 0 field goals and we had 20 turnovers.  We only lost by 7.  Not bad.  Chaulk it up to rust... the Celtics haven't played real basketball for over a month.

Not worried.  We'll sweep the next 4.

[/b]

i'll bet you 25 tommy points they do not. deal?

 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

One last note:  Boston tends to excel when they can focus on one team and then build a strategy against them.  We're an intelligent veteran team that knows how to adapt to our opponent.  I wouldn't be surprised to see us lose this first game... and then win the next 4.  That's just the way we are. 

Yup... we lost the first game.  That was expected.  We have a history of losing the first game and adjusting.  Let everyone have their hissy fit panic attacks... it's like they haven't followed the Celtics before.

Right on cue... Pierce with 39 minutes and KG with 37.  We held the Knicks to 85 points.  Our bench contributed a total of 0 field goals and we had 20 turnovers.  We only lost by 7.  Not bad.  Chaulk it up to rust... the Celtics haven't played real basketball for over a month.

Not worried.  We'll sweep the next 4.

[/b]

i'll bet you 25 tommy points they do not. deal?

Sure.  I'll take that bet on the condition that KG and Pierce both play the next 4 without serious injuries and average their typical 37 and 39 minutes.  Boston will sweep the next 4 games.

 

[SparzWizard]

hey larrybird33 go ahead and give me my 25 tommy points.

Yeah, give him his 25 tommy points!

[chambers]

They won the first 2 home games. We couldn't steal one.
We are awfully thin and the way the game was referred had a huge impact on our style of play, seemed like everyone was in foul trouble very early.
We need to take the next 2 at home and go from there.
Very doable but we need a better effort offensively.


Remember we left Miami down 2-0 last year, and we were 5 minutes away from a finals birth a week latwr. Dont give up. Go Celtics.