Author Topic: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers  (Read 51864 times)

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Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2012, 06:06:23 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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if I asked you if by the end of the season Rubio and Irving would be on the same level your answer would be 'certainly.'

That's not even close to true, SO.  Ask me the question again in two months, and I'll tell you that I think Irving is at least a tier and a half higher than Rubio.  Rubio's defense was mediocre, and his shooting / overall offense was very poor.  He's a very good passer, but so is Jose Calderon.  I'll need to see Rubio show more before I call him an elite player.  Irving is already there, and that's without all the professional experience that Rubio has had.


We'll see. If that's your honest thoughts I disagree thoroughly. Ill set the outlook reminder for all star break and well discuss in the cb pub.

I do think this is a very tough matchup for Rubio.

Please do.  If Rubio becomes a 45% shooter, I'll probably amend my opinion.  However, a good distributor + terrible shooter + mediocre defender doesn't equate to an elite player to me.  Yet.


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Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2012, 06:10:18 PM »

Offline Who

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And Portland's defense

Dwight Howard is hands down the best defensive player in the NBA.

Paul Millsap is an above average defensive PF. He is a very strong team defender who plays decent but slightly below average man-to-man defense. His lack of size creates problems from one-on-one against PFs with good size but he defends speed, perimeter play and face up games well.

Wilson Chandler is a well above average defensive player (SF). Also a well above average defensive player at SG and a useful part time defender at PF (but not full time, would struggle).

Joe Johnson is a well above average defensive player at SG and an above average defensive SF. He used to be able to defend PGs very well but I am not sure that is still the case. I'd like him still on the slower guards but not the quicker ones.

Ricky Rubio is a poor man-to-man defender and a very good team defender at the PG position. I don't think he defends wings well at all. I am hoping it's something he can learn how to do as he gains more experience but I think he's very weak at it right now.

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Chuck Hayes is an elite defensive PF. Both as a man-to-man defender and team defender. He has the capacity to defend 1 through 5. As a center, his lack of shot-blocking is a major problem with his team defense.

Matt Bonner is a very weak defensive player.

Matt Barnes is a below average but decent defensive player.

Marco Belinelli is a well below average defensive player.

Beno Udrih is another below average defensive player.

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2012, 06:23:49 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Let Rubio take the threes.

Different story. And at 34% that only makes Rubio average. I would expect his 3PT% in the playoffs to dip.


Nick, I guess i will just agree to disagree here.

Your rational for why Rubio will miss wide open threes is because "he's only average."  And he'll get worse in the playoffs...just because.

So what I'm taking out of all of this is that, while Irving will benefit from playing with a guy like LeBron, Rubio will regress while playing with Dwight howard and Joe Johnson.

I don't think you're being impartial with respect to both guy's situations.  It's fine if you think Irving will be better than Rubio - I think that, too.  But to suggest that Irving will excell in the playoffs while Rubio will regress BECAUSE he's in the playoffs is just unfair.



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As a whole, that unit would be elite. And given the fact Irving just has to play off Rubio and force him to shoot, you don't need an elite PG against Portland.

Defensive Abilities:

James v. Howard = slight edge Port
Varejao/Brand v. Millsap/Hayes = edge Mavs
Green/Klieza v. Chandler/Barnes = wash
Johnson v. Thabo = slight edge Mavs
Rubio v. Irving = edge Portland

I think there's room for arguement there, but I don't think that comparison is too far off. 

So call the Mavs elite defenders if you want, but I don't see enough of a seperation between those men to warrent much of an overall distinction defensively.
I think you are missing my point.

Young players tighten up in the playoffs, that's why they get worse. They especially tighten up if much is expected from them.

Given the make ups of your teams, Rubio is going to have to shoulder a major portion of the playmaking. Irving won't. Also, Irving had an average year shooting the three. Overall he is a poor shooter and has shown to be a bad three point shooter in Europe. I think he will tighten up and fall back to being the poor shooter he is.

Irving is not a bad shooter. In fact, he's a great shooter. He might tighten up and not shoot as well but if he loses 5% off his three point shooting percentage, he's still a good three point shooter at 35%. I also think that less likely because he will have less pressure on him due to the fact Lebron is that team's playmaker.

Also regarding this
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Varejao/Brand v. Millsap/Hayes = edge Mavs
Green/Klieza v. Chandler/Barnes = wash

I don't agree with this at all.  AV and Brand is a massive edge defensively over Millsap and Hayes. They are longer, and stronger and better overall one on one defenders.

Neither Chandler nor Barnes' defense is as good as Kleiza's, never mind a healthy green playing in the position he should play in at SF.

Agree to disagree I guess

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2012, 06:29:21 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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But nick, couldn't you argue that with proffessional and olympic expeirence under his belt Rubio is significantly more ready to take on this pressure than your average rookie.

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2012, 06:32:51 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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But nick, couldn't you argue that with proffessional and olympic expeirence under his belt Rubio is significantly more ready to take on this pressure than your average rookie.
You do know that Rubio was horrific in his last Olympic games, right? I mean Spain was expecting big things from him and he was just dismal. Something like 30% FG% and 15% 3PT%. His Euro numbers for shooting aren't that great either. If anything it all points to Rubio's 34% 3PT5 being a massive aberration.

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2012, 06:35:31 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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But nick, couldn't you argue that with proffessional and olympic expeirence under his belt Rubio is significantly more ready to take on this pressure than your average rookie.
You do know that Rubio was horrific in his last Olympic games, right? I mean Spain was expecting big things from him and he was just dismal. Something like 30% FG% and 15% 3PT%. His Euro numbers for shooting aren't that great either. If anything it all points to Rubio's 34% 3PT5 being a massive aberration.
r u sure ur not referring to the world championships? If memory serves me right, he was pretty fantastic in the last olympics.

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2012, 06:38:46 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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But nick, couldn't you argue that with proffessional and olympic expeirence under his belt Rubio is significantly more ready to take on this pressure than your average rookie.
You do know that Rubio was horrific in his last Olympic games, right? I mean Spain was expecting big things from him and he was just dismal. Something like 30% FG% and 15% 3PT%. His Euro numbers for shooting aren't that great either. If anything it all points to Rubio's 34% 3PT5 being a massive aberration.

Again, not at computer so I can't link it but sebastian pruiti had a pretty good piece about the drastic improvements in the fluidity of rubios shot. He had argued that the mechanics were always there, but he lacked the confidence to execute and therefor never developed one solid shooting motion

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #112 on: August 16, 2012, 06:40:54 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Roy, a question:

You've frequently cited your anticipated gains for Irving during the next season as further grounds for him being a legit number 2. Have you factored in a similar gain for Rubio?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #113 on: August 16, 2012, 06:46:30 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Roy, a question:

You've frequently cited your anticipated gains for Irving during the next season as further grounds for him being a legit number 2. Have you factored in a similar gain for Rubio?

No

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #114 on: August 16, 2012, 07:07:42 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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im voting dallas

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #115 on: August 16, 2012, 07:37:12 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy, a question:

You've frequently cited your anticipated gains for Irving during the next season as further grounds for him being a legit number 2. Have you factored in a similar gain for Rubio?

Rubio's development is going to be stunted a bit because he's currently rehabbing a torn ACL.  He hasn't even been cleared to run yet, and won't be until at minimum September.

Also, I'm not encouraged by Rubio's progression during the season:

January: 36.6% FG%, 9.1 assists, 12.0 points
February: 33.6% FG%, 7.7 assists, 10.0 points
March: 31.0% FG%, 6.6 assists, 9.3 points

Is that a kid that you can say for sure is going to get better next year?  Or did he start okay, and get worse but nobody noticed?



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Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2012, 07:38:00 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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I want so clarity from Kane here. You want these guys to compare their teams to teams from 2008-09. But why? Simply because they have a player from each team on their current teams?

B/c it's the only time they matched uo and regardless of stats I saw Howard impact that series more. That series might have been a sweep if not for that game 2 three. And I see alot of similarities in Dallas and Cleveland. Dwight beat Lebron and Cleveland then and I thought it was reasonable Dwight could potentially beat Lebron and Dallas here.

Again I saw similarities in the personnel and I clearly wasn't the only one since many others on here have brought up the comparison. I wanted to see what these two thought as a result and Roy made some very good points that definitely affected my outlook on the series. Unlike some I can be persuaded by good strategy. I don't pretend to know everything and I forget stuff like Brown's double teaming of Dwight.

I try to be objective, but everyone has assumptions before each series if how it will turn out and why. I wanted to give each GM a chance to either disprove or prove my assumptions for the series outcome. I don't want to be lazy and say, "well I already felt this is who is going to win, so I am not really going to read the thread and jut go based off my previous assumptions." That's not cool to all the GMs who pout forth a ton of time throughout the month on this.

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And who do you feel was the better team in 2008-09?

Better overall? I thought Cleveland was, but it was close. I thought Orlando could win though if they played great and caught some breaks. Orlando utilized their mismatches and game plan to perfection in that series. If not for a Courtney Lee missed layup in game 2 and Hoawrd missed free throw in game 4 then Orlando is up 3-1 in the Finals.

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Roy's team might be better than that Cleveland team and jgod's team worse than that Orlando team but that could still mean that you feel jgod has a better team because you thought that Orlando team heads and shoulders better than that Cleveland team.

No. I liked Cleveland overall. They looked unbeatable that year and had just swept Detroit and Atlanta.

Quote
I honestly don't think either team compares to those teams. The surrounding talent is so much different. Portland has a strong starting five but Dallas has great depth.  The opposite was true back then


That's cool. I see similarities. Especially front the Dallas perspective. I also see Joe Johnson and HEdo playing the same role with Dwight. I wanted to see more argument about Milsap compare to Lewis and Rubio compared to Nelson. I thought the right argument and strategy could have made a difference for myself. Seeing as how a few other brought up the comparison I thought it was a worthwhile question.

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Also, the respective superstars are different players than they were. Portland's superduperstar is reliant upon others to make parts of his game work(mostly offense) and Dallas' superduperstar doesn't. Also, Portland's star has a huge, gigantic major flaw in his game. Dallas' doesn't. Dallas' superstar makes all his team mates better on both ends of the floor. Portland's superstar only makes his team mates better on the defensive end of the floor. I'm not these things were all true back then.

This the kind of stuff I would definitely like to see your thoughts on. It could make a big deal for how people might vote.

Ultimately my goal is to help improve the discussion of the thread. I would like to see more back and forth with less hyperbole as others have stated. I think if you go into further detail about why you feel the way you do above it makes things more interesting.


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Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2012, 07:42:45 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

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for these 2 series i wont be voting as i dont know which teams to vote for so ill just wait until the Finals to vote

Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2012, 07:44:19 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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for these 2 series i wont be voting as i dont know which teams to vote for so ill just wait until the Finals to vote

You can always flip a coin. ;)


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Re: CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2012, 07:49:18 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

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for these 2 series i wont be voting as i dont know which teams to vote for so ill just wait until the Finals to vote

You can always flip a coin. ;)

Flipped the coin

Bulls win
Blazers win :P JK