CB Draft Western Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (2) Blazers

[nickagneta]

I want so clarity from Kane here. You want these guys to compare their teams to teams from 2008-09. But why? Simply because they have a player from each team on their current teams?

And who do you feel was the better team in 2008-09?

Roy's team might be better than that Cleveland team and jgod's team worse than that Orlando team but that could still mean that you feel jgod has a better team because you thought that Orlando team heads and shoulders better than that Cleveland team.

I honestly don't think either team compares to those teams. The surrounding talent is so much different. Portland has a strong starting five but Dallas has great depth.  The opposite was true back then

Also, the respective superstars are different players than they were. Portland's superduperstar is reliant upon others to make parts of his game work(mostly offense) and Dallas' superduperstar doesn't. Also, Portland's star has a huge, gigantic major flaw in his game. Dallas' doesn't. Dallas' superstar makes all his team mates better on both ends of the floor. Portland's superstar only makes his team mates better on the defensive end of the floor. I'm not these things were all true back then.

[jgod213]

Haha well i got my 'atta boy from Roy, so I guess I can go home with a smile on my face now.

I'm just not going to go down while people are being spoon fed this idea of an "elite defensive team."

This Mavs team has 1 "elite" defender and 1 more boderline, but closer to "very good defender" (pick one out of Thabo or Brand, because one had a very good year according to Synergy and 1 had a poor year - i won't give you both) in its starting unit.

Add to that a poor defender in Irving and essentially an unkown commodity in Jeff Green.

Why is this an elite defense again?  Sounds pretty solid, but let's not use......hyperbole.

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Meanwhile, on the other end of the court, there rests the best defender in the NBA.  A very good defender in Joe Johnson.  2 bawl-hawkers in Millsap (3rd in steals) and Rubio (who STILL finished 20th in steals).  Chandler adds a multidementional layer of length and some shotblocking.

Heck, if anything I'm going to call this Portland team Elite defenders.  As Roy said, you saw what he did with that 1st-in-defense Magic team a few years ago.  Imagine if Dwight had these defenders on that team?

[StartOrien]

Ricky Rubio shot 35.7% from the field last year.  To suggest that he's even in Kyrie Irving's class is borderline laughable.  You forget, Rubio is a pretty dang bad defender himself, ranking in the bottom 40% of NBA players.  However, he doesn't bring nearly the offense that Irving does.

Ugh, I hate comments like this , Roy.

I've been beating the Irving drum since you acquired him, think he was extraordinary this season and see him making a humongous leap this season.

But I hate to see a point addressed like this. Again, out of the competitive enviroment, if I asked you if by the end of the season Rubio and Irving would be on the same level your answer would be 'certainly.'

Their impact on the rookie season was semi-comprable, though Rubio eventually fell off a little before his injury while Irving continue excellence.

But them being in the same class is far from laughable.

[nickagneta]

Anderson Varejao might be one of the two or three best defensive big men in the game. LeBron is an elite defender. Sefalosha and Kleiza are extremely good defenders. Brand, for all his stats last year, to me, is in the Jeff green area of being a very good defender.

As a whole, that unit would be elite. And given the fact Irving just has to play off Rubio and force him to shoot, you don't need an elite PG against Portland.

[jgod213]

Anderson Varejao might be one of the two or three best defensive big men in the game. LeBron is an elite defender. Sefalosha and Kleiza are extremely good defenders. Brand, for all his stats last year, to me, is in the Jeff green area of being a very good defender.

As a whole, that unit would be elite. And given the fact Irving just has to play off Rubio and force him to shoot, you don't need an elite PG against Portland.

Varejo is a very good defender, but not against Dwight Howard.  I've posted that head to head matchup several times already.

As far as Rubio goes, it's a wonder that he managed to score any points and have any assists.  I mean all you have to do is let him shoot.


The subtleties of Rubio's game don't shine through in an excercise like this compared to Irving.  But let's be realisitc, Ricky Rubio is already one of the best passers in the NBA, he's going to hurt Irving in the high pick and roll game because Irving has shown to be poor at defending it, and Rubio will hit threes if you don't at least honor it. 

He shot 34% from deep last year, he will shoot the 3 and hit the 3 if you're not going to respect it.

[ronaldo943]

i really dont know what team to vote for as i feel like this is the only team that could beat Dallas, if IP would have had this team he would have won.

[nickagneta]

Anderson Varejao might be one of the two or three best defensive big men in the game. LeBron is an elite defender. Sefalosha and Kleiza are extremely good defenders. Brand, for all his stats last year, to me, is in the Jeff green area of being a very good defender.

As a whole, that unit would be elite. And given the fact Irving just has to play off Rubio and force him to shoot, you don't need an elite PG against Portland.

Varejo is a very good defender, but not against Dwight Howard.  I've posted that head to head matchup several times already.

As far as Rubio goes, it's a wonder that he managed to score any points and have any assists.  I mean all you have to do is let him shoot.


The subtleties of Rubio's game don't shine through in an excercise like this compared to Irving.  But let's be realisitc, Ricky Rubio is already one of the best passers in the NBA, he's going to hurt Irving in the high pick and roll game because Irving has shown to be poor at defending it, and Rubio will hit threes if you don't at least honor it. 

He shot 34% from deep last year, he will shoot the 3 and hit the 3 if you're not going to respect it.

Let Rubio take the threes.

If that's how you are going to lose a conference final is by Rubio making threes, then so be it. He made threes in the regular season. Ask Steve Novak, Paul George, Danilo Gallinari and Landry Fields and and some other very young players that had to suddenly make those three pointers in the playoffs. Different story. And at 34% that only makes Rubio average. I would expect his 3PT% in the playoffs to dip.

[StartOrien]

i really dont know what team to vote for as i feel like this is the only team that could beat Dallas, if IP would have had this team he would have won.

Hahaha, I'm sure this comment just made roys skin crawl

[jgod213]

Let Rubio take the threes.

Different story. And at 34% that only makes Rubio average. I would expect his 3PT% in the playoffs to dip.

Nick, I guess i will just agree to disagree here.

Your rational for why Rubio will miss wide open threes is because "he's only average."  And he'll get worse in the playoffs...just because.

So what I'm taking out of all of this is that, while Irving will benefit from playing with a guy like LeBron, Rubio will regress while playing with Dwight howard and Joe Johnson.

I don't think you're being impartial with respect to both guy's situations.  It's fine if you think Irving will be better than Rubio - I think that, too.  But to suggest that Irving will excell in the playoffs while Rubio will regress BECAUSE he's in the playoffs is just unfair.

As a whole, that unit would be elite. And given the fact Irving just has to play off Rubio and force him to shoot, you don't need an elite PG against Portland.

Defensive Abilities:

James v. Howard = slight edge Port
Varejao/Brand v. Millsap/Hayes = edge Mavs
Green/Klieza v. Chandler/Barnes = wash
Johnson v. Thabo = slight edge Mavs
Rubio v. Irving = edge Portland

I think there's room for arguement there, but I don't think that comparison is too far off. 

So call the Mavs elite defenders if you want, but I don't see enough of a seperation between those men to warrent much of an overall distinction defensively.

[Roy H.]

if I asked you if by the end of the season Rubio and Irving would be on the same level your answer would be 'certainly.'

That's not even close to true, SO.  Ask me the question again in two months, and I'll tell you that I think Irving is at least a tier and a half higher than Rubio.  Rubio's defense was mediocre, and his shooting / overall offense was very poor.  He's a very good passer, but so is Jose Calderon.  I'll need to see Rubio show more before I call him an elite player.  Irving is already there, and that's without all the professional experience that Rubio has had.

[Who]

Here is how I would rate Dallas' defensive players:

I think Anderson Varejao is the best defensive PF in the NBA. The toughest man-to-man defender and an elite team defender.

As a center, I think Anderson Varejao's man-to-man defense drops off. Still good but nowhere near elite. As a team defender, I think Varejao is still a high level team defender (elite or close to it).

LeBron James is an excellent team defender 1-4 (PG, SG, SF, PF) and an elite man-to-man defender 1-3 (PG, SG, SF) and a plus defender at PF.

Thabo Sefolosha is a high level defensive player 1-3 (PG, SG, SF).

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I think they are the three main guys defensively for Dallas and that the Mavs can build a high level defensive team around them.

Given their further solid defensive options with Jeff Green and Elton Brand, they have a very stable base of quality defenders beyond their top guys.

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I don't understand Kleiza being mentioned as a good defensive player. He has been minutes limited his entire career because he is such a weak defensive player at both SF (too slow) and PF (too small). He is an offensively orientated bench player.

Elton Brand is not an elite defender. He is roundabout average as a center. He fights hard but he's always going to be limited by his size. As a power forward, he is below average because he can't move quickly enough on team defense. 

Jeff Green is a slightly above average defender with the potential to be much more if he ever figures out how to use that physical talent of his.

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Kyrie Irving is one of the weakest defensive players in the league at PG.

Ben Gordon is a defensive liability at SG. Just too small. At PG, I think he is close to average. He lacks a bit of quickness but he has good size and smarts. He can take a step off his man and still contest shots well due to his size.

Mike Dunleavy is a defensive liability. That is why he is has been so minutes limited in both Milwaukee and Indiana in recent years ... despite his very effective play in the minutes he gets. Great coaching. They've utilized him perfectly. He may not be a defender but he is a really valuable reserve.

Robin Lopez is very inconsistent defensively. He had one year where he played solid defense and he has stunk every other season. Shows the odd flash of good defense when he's in the mood ... but those days are too few and far between. Unfortunately.

Aaron Brooks is a very poor defensive player.

[Roy H.]

i really dont know what team to vote for as i feel like this is the only team that could beat Dallas, if IP would have had this team he would have won.

Hahaha, I'm sure this comment just made roys skin crawl

I think jgod has done as good a job of arguing for his team as IP or anybody else could do.

However, Portland just isn't as good as Dallas.  You can't have two sub-40% shooters and beat Dallas.  You can't have four guys in your rotation with an eFG% below .500 and beat Dallas.  You can't have two guys coming off major injuries and beat Dallas.  You can't have Paul Millsap and Wilson Chandler defend Lebron and beat Dallas.

But seriously, jgod shouldn't be compared negatively to any GM in this game.  He's made the best argument there is.  It's just not strong enough to win, because he doesn't have the horses.

[StartOrien]

if I asked you if by the end of the season Rubio and Irving would be on the same level your answer would be 'certainly.'

That's not even close to true, SO.  Ask me the question again in two months, and I'll tell you that I think Irving is at least a tier and a half higher than Rubio.  Rubio's defense was mediocre, and his shooting / overall offense was very poor.  He's a very good passer, but so is Jose Calderon.  I'll need to see Rubio show more before I call him an elite player.  Irving is already there, and that's without all the professional experience that Rubio has had.

We'll see. If that's your honest thoughts I disagree thoroughly. Ill set the outlook reminder for all star break and well discuss in the cb pub.

I do think this is a very tough matchup for Rubio.

[StartOrien]

I still got the mavs winning by a wide margin, btw. Just had some bones to pick about the way that argument was presented

[Roy H.]

Elton Brand is not an elite defender. He is roundabout average as a center. He fights hard but he's always going to be limited by his size. As a power forward, he is below average because he can't move quickly enough on team defense. 

While I respect your opinion, Who, this isn't close to true.  I've cited statistics -- both team and individual -- to show Brand's elite defense.  He's the only player in the NBA to rank in the top 15 in both post defense and pick-and-roll defense.  I've offered testimonial evidence from other players, as well as from experts and NBA commentators. 

Brand is an excellent defender, as both a PF and a C.  Brand's offense has fallen off, perhaps, but his defense has improved with age.